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Grinding and RNG is a good thing.

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4 hours ago, Martin Arcainess said:

Bit of subjective statement there.

 

Grinding and RNG is fun? Well, that depends on many factors and views and opinions of other people. 

Some people can do 5K hours of gameplay with RNG all the way some can't. It depends on what type of person you are and how much you can enjoy the game. 

For some people too much RNG after a set amount of time with 0 progressions can easily put people off the game so saying RNG and grinding is a good thing isn't true for everyone. If you think it is then good for you. But again, it isn't subjective to everyone.

 

My 2cents in this, yeah RNG can keep people playing, as you don't want handouts either but you don't want to be farming for hours on end without any rewards. 

 

Edit:

Just  add-on but in a FFXIV, a mmo. You can farm boss's and they have a low drop chance of dropping a mount but after a few weeks the'll add a token system where at 99 tokens you can trade them in for the mount. 1 token dropped per run. 

 

I like this system as it keeps the rng in there but something to aim for if your one of the unluickest ones and ive know this to keep people playing as they was working towards something.

That's an issue that they're fixing in the next DD2 patch.  Shard farming was ridiculous and there was less than a 10% chance to get any one shard.  Often you could open 50 shards and still not get the one you were looking for.  Based on how Trendy is going to improve that in DD2, I'd hope they learned their lesson on terribad RNG systems that require hours upon hours of farming.

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3 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

That's an issue that they're fixing in the next DD2 patch.  Shard farming was ridiculous and there was less than a 10% chance to get any one shard.  Often you could open 50 shards and still not get the one you were looking for.  Based on how Trendy is going to improve that in DD2, I'd hope they learned their lesson on terribad RNG systems that require hours upon hours of farming.

Oh aye. Like I said Im fine with RNG farming but a safety net is always nice. Would defo get me to play more offten If I had a goal in mind.

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11 hours ago, Martin Arcainess said:

Just  add-on but in a FFXIV, a mmo. You can farm boss's and they have a low drop chance of dropping a mount but after a few weeks the'll add a token system where at 99 tokens you can trade them in for the mount. 1 token dropped per run. 

There was stuff like this in DD1 as well if I remember right. You could farm for coal and then trade your coal for an item being auctioned on the forums, or you could gamble your coal and create a random diamond. Diamonds were one of the most interesting items/pets in the game. Apart from being decent tower/stat pets, each diamond had a different shape and color which was unique to that player only. An ocean blue diamond would be worth more than say a brown diamond. I really liked the dynamicness in that, and the game needs a lot more things like that.

And I almost completely forgot about accessories. Even if there is a more consistent pace of progression in DDA compared to DD1, at the very least they should bring back the accessories such as santa beard or whatnot which boosted your stats. Some of those were quite rare and valuable as well.

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On 3/12/2019 at 5:54 AM, LJMjollnir said:

...

Pl0x stop using 2-5 dots after every sentence....

It is quite annoying...

Thanks for understanding, sincerely ya boi Scam...

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Posted (edited)

oh no accidently posted two posts, now sam is the bad boi :C

 

oh and i can add that what Kitty been saying sounds good, i enjoy the rng and grind in DD1

Edited by Sam116
everything...
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6 hours ago, Sam116 said:

Pl0x stop using 2-5 dots after every sentence....

It is quite annoying...

I disagree... 

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1 hour ago, Jaws_420 said:

I disagree... 

Actually, he might be right.  6 or more does have a nice, stately look to it......

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48 minutes ago, russman said:

Actually, he might be right.  6 or more does have a nice, stately look to it......

LOL why stop there............

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, kitty said:

There was stuff like this in DD1 as well if I remember right. You could farm for coal and then trade your coal for an item being auctioned on the forums, or you could gamble your coal and create a random diamond. Diamonds were one of the most interesting items/pets in the game. Apart from being decent tower/stat pets, each diamond had a different shape and color which was unique to that player only. An ocean blue diamond would be worth more than say a brown diamond. I really liked the dynamicness in that, and the game needs a lot more things like that.

And I almost completely forgot about accessories. Even if there is a more consistent pace of progression in DDA compared to DD1, at the very least they should bring back the accessories such as santa beard or whatnot which boosted your stats. Some of those were quite rare and valuable as well.

Your talking to a pS3 scrub T-T

The only extra things we had was the 3 maps of lost shards DLC and since I live in EU I couldnt download the 4th. T-T

 

But yeah that coal idea sounds super duper bitching :3

Edited by Martin Arcainess

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Posted (edited)

In response to people expressing a distaste with the rarity in which Ult+ / Ult++ gear would drop in DD1...

  • You have to remember that you can complete like 90-95% of DD1's content with Transcendent gear, which isn't rare at all and relatively easy to farm on survival (it's also usable at Level 78, which you can reach after 2 runs of Tinkerer's Lab campaign).
  • In other words, nothing in the game requires having Ult+ / Ult++ gear to complete (nor do your characters even have to be at the level cap), but it gives the DD1 Elite a practically unreachable stat ceiling (which I think is a good thing).

****In other other words, it means that those who have sunk 1,000's of hours into the game will still have something additional to aim for, **BUT** there's literally no content that requires you to spend that many hours playing in order to complete. To me, this means that the "1,000-hr players" and the "100-hr players" might be separated by a wide Statistic-margin (the 8K-statters vs. the 3-4K statters), but will **NOT** be widely separated in terms of what content they can complete.

I'm not sure the concept described above was an intentional design decision on Trendy's part, or just a fortunate coincidence, but I always saw this as one of the biggest draws to DD1.

 

(EDIT: I used the term "DD1 Elite", but I am certainly not describing myself that way -- Most of my characters have main stats of less than 4K in comparison to people running around with 7-8K)

Edited by g_cracka88
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Grinding is not good. One of the dumbest things of DD1 was setting up towers and literally going AFK only to trigger wave starts for about an hour. You can get that today in the form of crappy idler games.

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3 hours ago, g_cracka88 said:

To me, this means that the "1,000-hr players" and the "100-hr players" might be separated by a wide Statistic-margin (the 8K-statters vs. the 3-4K statters), but will **NOT** be widely separated in terms of what content they can complete.

This would be correct if Temple of Polybius did not exist. You would be extremely hard pressed to beat Temple of Polybius as even a team of level 78 people with 100 hours even if they were well coordinated.

People who have 5k+ in a group with Ultimate weapons can waltz through the map in almost under 10 minutes to get rewards that can spawn ult++ cap at level 1. The massive gulf in reward quality between what is farmable with low vs high stats is incredible.

Crystal Core is another example. Its ability allows it to heal any damage your crystal has taken, (extremely useful early game) but it is only farmable from Crystalline Resurgence 2 Survival wave 35. That's a tough feat even with 4k stats.

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19 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

This would be correct if Temple of Polybius did not exist. You would be extremely hard pressed to beat Temple of Polybius as even a team of level 78 people with 100 hours even if they were well coordinated.

People who have 5k+ in a group with Ultimate weapons can waltz through the map in almost under 10 minutes to get rewards that can spawn ult++ cap at level 1. The massive gulf in reward quality between what is farmable with low vs high stats is incredible.

Crystal Core is another example. Its ability allows it to heal any damage your crystal has taken, (extremely useful early game) but it is only farmable from Crystalline Resurgence 2 Survival wave 35. That's a tough feat even with 4k stats.

Right, but my full post that you were quoting said that you can complete 90-95% of content with Trans sets (approx. 4K stats perhaps). In other words, I'm including some of the CR maps, Temple of Polybius, and maybe Embermount Volcano as that 5-10% that might not be completable with Trans stuff. Would you not agree with that?

I'm using the fact that there are still maps that might be un-completable at 4Kish stats as a good thing. I'm not sure if we're seeing eye-to-eye on that or not.

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1 hour ago, g_cracka88 said:

Right, but my full post that you were quoting said that you can complete 90-95% of content with Trans sets (approx. 4K stats perhaps). In other words, I'm including some of the CR maps, Temple of Polybius, and maybe Embermount Volcano as that 5-10% that might not be completable with Trans stuff. Would you not agree with that?

I'm using the fact that there are still maps that might be un-completable at 4Kish stats as a good thing. I'm not sure if we're seeing eye-to-eye on that or not.

he said 90-95% of all the content, that means literally all content. the bit he was talking about were mainly survival maps and maps that require more than just stats (by that i mean skill). doing some maps on survival is really damn hard with 4k stats but its still beatable. embermount survival is incredibly hard cuz ogres have upwards of 125m hp and oneshot you if you dont have max resistances. this kind of content was the other 5-10% he was talking about

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Posted (edited)
On 3/11/2019 at 6:17 PM, Jaws_420 said:

I think one of the keys of making DDA a success is to not just port over any system exactly as it is from either game. If you want to play DD1/2, go play that instead. We all need to evolve, and make way for plans for DD3 some day. We don't want this franchise to become like Everquest, where ten years after it comes out, everyone is still only playing the first one. DD1 hopefully is not a unique lightning in a bottle scenario. The next iteration should push us all forward, and make us never want to go back to the old system. That is how you know if you have succeeded in evolving a game.

Personally, I'd probably play the same multiplayer game for ever if it never died and I always had a motivation to play it. The only reason I stopped playing DD1 was because my computer couldn't handle maps like Karathiki Jungle. I'd be in heaven if DD:A was an amazing game with no flaws that would annoy me and make me quit after some point and they'd just add QoL improvements as well as end-game DLC content over time so that you ALWAYS have something to aim/work toward. They did a great job adding more maps, higher level caps and equipment rarities in DD1 but they eventually stopped. I'm conscious that it will almost always eventually become a chore for any devs to work on the same thing for a prolonged period of time. I'm all for sequels to single player games. Unfortunately, sequels to multiplayer games are not always better than their predecessors and they very often tend to kill them. Player base wise and/or support wise.

--Back to the thread's topic--

I'm heavily on the side of RNG being good. I don't understand people that complain about certain maps requiring an excessive amount of time to beat. In DD1 you could easily beat the campaign and the Lost Eternia Shards DLCs on a low difficulty without having to farm too much. I really don't see how it hurts the more casual players if there are a few end-game maps that require a massive amount of time played to beat. In DD:A they could make ALL maps beatable on a lower difficulty without much farm at all but have higher difficulties progressively drop higher level and quality items. Although, I really like the idea of having a new map to beat as a goal. I feel like if they release the Massacre difficulty, they should have each and every map drop their own unique items like maps on survival in DD1 drop unique pets. It would be nice if all maps were worth farming at the end-game. I really really liked being able to unlock skins if you did certain things, I strongly hope that they add skins you can use to show off as in DD:A. :)

Some people mentioned having a feature that keeps track of your drops and at some point guarantee you an upgrade is a bad idea I'd say. It would have to be extremely well tuned, otherwise imagine just being lucky with the guaranteed upgrade and getting a big upgrade and a big one again once or twice in a row.. To me that sounds extremely silly progression wise.

Edited by Windex
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, g_cracka88 said:

Right, but my full post that you were quoting said that you can complete 90-95% of content with Trans sets (approx. 4K stats perhaps). In other words, I'm including some of the CR maps, Temple of Polybius, and maybe Embermount Volcano as that 5-10% that might not be completable with Trans stuff. Would you not agree with that?

I'm using the fact that there are still maps that might be un-completable at 4Kish stats as a good thing. I'm not sure if we're seeing eye-to-eye on that or not.

I don't think any maps require 4K stats to clear.  What the hard maps really require is good weapons and pets.  Stats are useful, but they aren't nearly as important as that other stuff.  That's because stats are balanced in DD1 to have diminishing returns the higher you go, while base damage on pets and weapons scale linearly.

Grinding for weapons and pets is a huge part of DD1 endgame.

Edited by Plane
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Plane said:

I don't think any maps require 4K stats to clear.  What the hard maps really require is good weapons and pets.  Stats are useful, but they aren't nearly as important as that other stuff.  That's because stats are balanced in DD1 to have diminishing returns the higher you go, while base damage on pets and weapons scale linearly.

Grinding for weapons and pets is a huge part of DD1 endgame.

Agreed there - I was just using 4K as a roundabout-ish stat count for a player who might be able complete all content up to Embermount, but gets stuck there (sorta using myself as the prime example of that if I hadn't accidentally made that too obvious from earlier :P ). I wasn't saying that having 4K-statted characters was required in order to complete the rest of the 90-95% of early-to-mid-late game content ; I was just saying that completion of all of said content should be achievable at 4K. Obviously, you can beat the same maps with less, I was just estimating the area at which the common 'end-game' player would be.

 

Earlier in this thread, Caimen0 had said: "The problem that DD1 has is that once you hit roughly 4-5k stats, it becomes very hard to feel regular progression unless you put significant time into maps on a daily basis" (that's where I was getting the 4K from). <------ and I agree completely with Caimen0 here, but I guess I don't see it as that much of an issue. I'm guessing we might already agree, but I think the diminishing returns aspect is sort of the only option from a design-perspective, because if gear-stats gave linear returns, then you'd have to effectively lock more maps behind stat walls (or effectively-required weapons or pets that might be tough to farm) that would be practically-unachievable for the player who ranks somewhere between "Average" (few hundred hours?) and "Dedicated" (1k hrs maybe?).
     ---> With linear returns, you might have the same DD1, but the 5-10% of uncompletable content might be something like 25% instead, where the only players coming out triumphant would be what I'm calling the "Elite" playerbase (2k+ hrs, perhaps?).
     ---> Hopefully, none of us are of the opinion that that's the direction that DDA should be going in! (I know I certainly don't want that...).
     ---> I suppose you could instead flatline map-difficulty at some point (instead of the linear ramp), but then your 'end-game' player would eventually have nothing to work toward, which I think would be a worse alternative.

 

I'm also agreed that at a certain point, gear stat-points aren't quite as significant as items that will bump your DPS up significantly (i.e. pets and weapons, like you mentioned...), but as we both know, that's primarily because a lot of the really late-game end-content (that "5-10%" that I was referring to before) contain Maps with very difficult bosses on the last wave.
     ---> I think gating different 'tiers' of content behind a boss fight that might require different tactics to beat makes sense! (think back to the original DD1 story, where you had the 4-map tiers, where the first 3 were bossless and the fourth pitted you against a boss on the last wave).
     ---> However, I'm kind of in a love / hate relationship with how current DD1's end-game boss fights are gated toward players, in the sense that they seem to require specific items to beat: (i.) Embermount: you either need really strong ranged DPS for attrition damage (Bloodshot or other good staff w/ tight shot pattern + Fairy pet), or you boost the hell out of a Beam-specced EV (which ironically works best with the Ember Staff that is rewarded from the same map... <--- no bueno IMO) and try to kill it in one go ; (ii.) CR2: you need DPS with strong elemental dmg (e.g. the Emerald Sword for Barb), etc.
     ---> On the one hand, I think the examples above (and others that I didn't mention) are permissable, because it gives the player an idea of what they need to farm in order to finally be able to beat "that next level" (though this might not be obvious to a player who hasn't read up on a guide, or watched DD1 YouTube videos, etc. <---- I think my feelings are ultimately neutral on this aspect).
     ---> On the other hand, it can be really frustrating if there is no easy way to obtain the items that are normally used to beat the content -- again, queue the example of the Phoenix being easiest to beat using a Beam-EV, which is most effective with the Ember Staff that is the reward from the map you are trying to beat... -_- (I know this isn't the only way to beat the boss, but hopefully it's a fair example...).

 

(Might add some more thoughts as they come to me, but I think I've written enough for now, sorry... lol)

Edited by g_cracka88
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9 hours ago, Windex said:



--Back to the thread's topic--

I'm heavily on the side of RNG being good. I don't understand people that complain about certain maps requiring an excessive amount of time to beat. In DD1 you could easily beat the campaign and the Lost Eternia Shards DLCs on a low difficulty without having to farm too much. I really don't see how it hurts the more casual players if there are a few end-game maps that require a massive amount of time played to beat. In DD:A they could make ALL maps beatable on a lower difficulty without much farm at all but have higher difficulties progressively drop higher level and quality items. Although, I really like the idea of having a new map to beat as a goal. I feel like if they release the Massacre difficulty, they should have each and every map drop their own unique items like maps on survival in DD1 drop unique pets. It would be nice if all maps were worth farming at the end-game. I really really liked being able to unlock skins if you did certain things, I strongly hope that they add skins you can use to show off as in DD:A. :)


This post is nicely fleshed out, and I agree. Having the 'regaular' game content (campaign + most DLC) beatable without having to farm for hundreds of hours is how it should be, but there should be that incentive-creating endgame that feels like a real, genuine challenge. Different enemies, crazy stats/buffs, thought-provoking maps, etc. And this content should be worked towards, farmed towards, strategized towards, etc. It shouldn't be as easy as like Bloons, where you just tinker with tower placements and you'll have the map beat within a few runs after unlocking it. Map-specific loot sounds awesmoe too. 

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I don't want DD1 rng ever again, it was inherently pretty broken and not rewarding.

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I really hope there are 4 distinct parts of DDA progression. A natural advancement that keeps you interested.

Part1 would be the main storyline. It would come with story clips, unlock initial new gear and pets, and by the time you beat it - you have a fairly good grasp of base mechanics. I'd also want adjustable difficulty, so that they could be replayed on harder difficulties.

Part2 would the grind zone. A system able to access any map by choice, with adjustable difficulty. No cut scenes, and easy replayability. The difficulty would climb higher and higher. These are the levels where most hero progression will happen. This is the grind...exp bonuses for wins would be wanted. Easy ways to deal with inventory management is something that is needed. 

Part3 is the distractions. The side modes you play when you need to break up the grind. Survival, incursion, events, dailies, and other fun ways to mix things up. All of these need to be playable from the end of part1 and all the way through part2 with increasing difficulty. Unique rewards are great incentives. 

Part4 would be the end game mode. Something that you absolutely cannot play after part1 or a huge time investment into part2. It would be extremely tough, and it would have dynamic scaling health and damage over a certain threshold, so that high end players are always challenged. Extremely challenging, with big rewards, flairs, and titles to entice you.

Just some thoughts...

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On 3/16/2019 at 1:15 AM, Aheadatlme said:


This post is nicely fleshed out, and I agree. Having the 'regaular' game content (campaign + most DLC) beatable without having to farm for hundreds of hours is how it should be, but there should be that incentive-creating endgame that feels like a real, genuine challenge. Different enemies, crazy stats/buffs, thought-provoking maps, etc. And this content should be worked towards, farmed towards, strategized towards, etc. It shouldn't be as easy as like Bloons, where you just tinker with tower placements and you'll have the map beat within a few runs after unlocking it. Map-specific loot sounds awesmoe too. 

About map specific loot: I think it's a good idea in general but it should not be over-done. A player should not feel forced to play a specific map too much, just because of the loot there. You should always have the option to choose between a few maps, which are more or less equally in terms of loot and difficulty. On the other side there will always be a "best to farm map" and map specifc loot might give you an incentive to play a different map.

I absolutely agree with the rest. For those, who do not want to play too much, a beatable story-driven campaign should be sufficient. But for many dedicated players here a DD game is a long-term game, where you constantly strive towards better gear. This is what keeps the players motivated.

Prevent item manipulation / hacking and add a way to make trading easily accessible with a kind of market place / auction house and you would boost this even more. This would also make the grind a bit less frustrating for some, because after a while they can also buy some better gear on the market, where you would see a normal inflation of gear quality and prices over time (of course there should be level caps on the gear, to prevent a new player from simply buying stuff that is not meant for their progression state).

And in the end it does not really matter if your stats are a bit higher or lower. Higher stats usually make things just easier up to a point, where you can afk-farm a certain map. But the map is playable and beatable way before.

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Posted (edited)

I'd like to interject by saying that there is nothing elite about a player who runs maps without utilizing much strategy and is only distinguished by the amount of time they have to sit around and near mindlessly farm a map. Nothing about RNG is elite. It's luck. 

The grind is stupid. What DD needs are maps that keep players engaged. Towers that help but do not do all the work for you.  You have an awesome hero with awesome skills to dispatch monsters. That's the other half of the game. 

In an ideal world your defenses are placed strategically. And you need to choose between what you can afford to lose to a monster swarm in one lane and where your hero absolutely needs to be to stop an overrun in another. OR, ya know, maybe if they clear one lane quickly enough they can save everything in both. It's supposed to be about crucial decision making in the combat phase and easing the impact of those decisions by building smartly in the build phase. 

RNG mostly sucks. It's a played out cash grab for most games. And locking progression behind luck is and always has been a crappy mechanic. It keeps players hooked, but for all the wrong reasons. Progression should be steady and manageable, with the challenge coming from the game itself and the gear and towers being balanced around not turning it into easy mode which means no matter how hard you grind your build decisions and actions in combat are the most important pieces of the game, which removes any and all need for stupid RNG based progression. With the most powerful upgrades  (on character and towers) leaving the game very difficult at its top level of play (but easier on others). But those upgrades should be available after certain amounts of XP and grinding with some guarantee. Never confuse a lucky slot pull on loot for elite talent. 

Edited by balegrim
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, balegrim said:

I'd like to interject by saying that there is nothing elite about a player who runs maps without utilizing much strategy and is only distinguished by the amount of time they have to sit around and near mindlessly farm a map. Nothing about RNG is elite. It's luck. 

The grind is stupid. What DD needs are maps that keep players engaged. Towers that help but do not do all the work for you.  You have an awesome hero with awesome skills to dispatch monsters. That's the other half of the game. 

In an ideal world your defenses are placed strategically. And you need to choose between what you can afford to lose to a monster swarm in one lane and where your hero absolutely needs to be to stop an overrun in another. OR, ya know, maybe if they clear one lane quickly enough they can save everything in both. It's supposed to be about crucial decision making in the combat phase and easing the impact of those decisions by building smartly in the build phase. 

RNG mostly sucks. It's a played out cash grab for most games. And locking progression behind luck is and always has been a crappy mechanic. It keeps players hooked, but for all the wrong reasons. Progression should be steady and manageable, with the challenge coming from the game itself and the gear and towers being balanced around not turning it into easy mode which means no matter how hard you grind your build decisions and actions in combat are the most important pieces of the game, which removes any and all need for stupid RNG based progression. With the most powerful upgrades  (on character and towers) leaving the game very difficult at its top level of play (but easier on others). But those upgrades should be available after certain amounts of XP and grinding with some guarantee. Never confuse a lucky slot pull on loot for elite talent. 

Then you should stick with DD2, where the item power level determines the strength and stats of it. Absolutely boring.

DPS heroes should be there to support the defenses, supplement the weaker parts of it and focus specific targets (bosses). But if you focus too much on the hero aspect, you ruin the experience for solo and duo players, because you cannot be everywhere at the same time. And in the end it is a "tower defense" game - another thing that drove me off DD2, which focused too much on DPS chars.

Also RNG has nothing to do with luck but with statistics. A "Random Number Generator" works within pre-defined boundaries and on average everyone will get equal results. So I am not sure, why you are trying to reduce the "elite players" like this - DD games were never really challenging skill-wise anyway.

Edited by The Ich
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Ich said:

Then you should stick with DD2, where the item power level determines the strength and stats of it. Absolutely boring.

Gonna have to stop you right there. You're apparently so threatened by the idea of making the game less item dependent you wanted to accuse me of saying it should be MORE item dependent. Because THIS means less item dependency: 

13 hours ago, balegrim said:

Progression should be steady and manageable, with the challenge coming from the game itself and the gear and towers being balanced around not turning it into easy mode which means no matter how hard you grind your build decisions and actions in combat are the most important pieces of the game, which removes any and all need for stupid RNG based progression. With the most powerful upgrades  (on character and towers) leaving the game very difficult at its top level of play (but easier on others). But those upgrades should be available after certain amounts of XP and grinding with some guarantee. Never confuse a lucky slot pull on loot for elite talent. 

I don't appreciate when people go out of their way to intentionally misconstrue stuff because they are afraid of a suggestion. Also, nothing in that post says you gets screwed for soloing. It just explicitly states that there's always gonna need to be at least one lane where you need to involve your hero and in other lanes they will survive but probably take some losses along the lane to stress the player. IE: figuring out what you can afford to lose during the combat phase and what losing would cost you the game if you are unresponsive. What I suggested is making this afk farming crap totally not a thing. Because if you just sit in your base and don't aid your towers they will get wrecked. I guess you think having gear that lets you step away from the computer and picking classes where you can go read a magazine and automatically win is "elite play???"

Edited by balegrim

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Posted (edited)

In fact, if I were to design the game, your characters strength and tower power would primarily be determined by skill points from leveling up and where you spend them. With items giving modest boosts in comparison to make things easier if you have good items. But not a lot easier. If you're playing on the tier of difficulty you're meant to, you gotta expect tower losses and be in the right place at the right time. Either tanking for your defenses and making mobs hit you while they get blasted by towers OR culling the wave with dps. AFK farming would only be possible on difficulties a few levels below whatever level of difficulty you are supposed to be on. 

Edited by balegrim

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