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kitty

Grinding and RNG is a good thing.

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Posted (edited)

In DD1, I actually liked that you had to spend 500 hours farming maps to get a potentially good Supreme/Ultimate/Ultimate++ item. All of the players I played with (who were the top players at the time) were large traders and item collectors. They played many hours everyday, either grinding coal in hopes of finding a diamond with nice stats and aesthetics, or farming King's Game looking for that perfect Ultimate++ item.


It's all about the thrill of grinding and not knowing what you might get. One day you could have full Supreme gear and then suddenly the perfect Ultimate++ item drops which is worth more than your entire bank. You now have an option to trade it for a Supreme set for one of your builders or use it/drop it in your tavern to show it off to your friends. That's what I call a "rewarding grind". It's not rewarding if you're guaranteed to get a good item if you put in X hours like in DD2. RNG is actually a wonderful thing and the reason DD1 succeeded.

Take a look at the reasons RuneScape is so successful, which is a game that has had over 100K+ daily players despite being 20 years old. A large reason people still play is is because some items have a 1 in 10,000 droprate. Pets, for example, have a 1 in 250,000 drop rate. And on top of that, you could spend 10,000 hours playing and still not max out.


TLDR:

  • Bring back Supreme, Ultimate, Ultimate++ gear, and diamonds.
  • RNG is a good thing. If it takes 500 hours to (potentially) get 1 Ultimate item, that's perfect. It is an Ultimate item, after all. It's supposed to be ultra rare.
  • Bring back free trading. If there's cash shops in server lists (like there were PayPal taverns in DD1) and people can skip grinding, good. Let them. That means the game is successful and the items actually have merit and people care about them. All successful MMOs deal with this.
  • Bring back dropping items in tavern. Don't try to make some weird auction house with a clunky UI. Bring back the spirit of DD1.

I'd really like to see DD1 come back but with an anti-cheat, improved graphics and animations, and more features and content. I don't want to see a "new" game where Trendy tries to do what they think is the right thing. I do not want to see this game fail like DD2 or DDE.

Edited by kitty
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It is an interesting problem to ponder.  How do you make rare items hard to get but not make it so frustrating that no one wants to bother.  That seemed to be one of the problems (according to others) with DDE.  Top of the line gear was too easy to obtain.  I think DD1 came pretty close to getting it just right.  It was awesome when I finally got my first Ult++ drop.  But other things just don't seem worth the effort.  Like farming a good weapon from CD.  I just couldn't be bothered.  

With probabilities, you do get a nice randomness but you can also get a lot of frustration.  Someone can farm a map 3 times and end up with an Ult++ where you have farmed it 30 times and only got up to Ult.  I wonder about a possibility of having a mechanism so that the game would keep track how many times you've beaten a map without getting a top tier reward.  Each time you run the map but don't get a top tier reward, your chance of getting a top tier reward is improved a little bit.  And when you do hit the jackpot, your chance goes back to the base value.  Then you would at least feel you were making some progress towards a nice item even when you only get crappy rewards on a particular run.

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18 minutes ago, russman said:

It is an interesting problem to ponder.  How do you make rare items hard to get but not make it so frustrating that no one wants to bother.  That seemed to be one of the problems (according to others) with DDE.  Top of the line gear was too easy to obtain.  I think DD1 came pretty close to getting it just right.  It was awesome when I finally got my first Ult++ drop.  But other things just don't seem worth the effort.  Like farming a good weapon from CD.  I just couldn't be bothered.  

With probabilities, you do get a nice randomness but you can also get a lot of frustration.  Someone can farm a map 3 times and end up with an Ult++ where you have farmed it 30 times and only got up to Ult.  I wonder about a possibility of having a mechanism so that the game would keep track how many times you've beaten a map without getting a top tier reward.  Each time you run the map but don't get a top tier reward, your chance of getting a top tier reward is improved a little bit.  And when you do hit the jackpot, your chance goes back to the base value.  Then you would at least feel you were making some progress towards a nice item even when you only get crappy rewards on a particular run.

You couldn't bother doing CD you said. That's a good thing -- that means it was hard, time-consuming, and only for the few elite players willing to put in the time and effort, as it should be. We need more content like that, more "crazy loot" and I don't mean crazy in the sense that it looks cool or is (kinda) difficult to get, but crazy in that something only a few players have in-game, something that may sell for $200 real-life money because players desperately want it.

Also, again, a system like that where your "chances go up with each run" is exactly what Trendy should avoid. It seems like something they tried to do in DD2, constantly worrying about balance and a consistent pace of progression, and I personally hated it. The game feels too casual, linear, and static and bleh then. Trading or showing off items wouldn't be as special, and you wouldn't get that "rewarding" feel once you get a super rare drop after 200 hours of grinding.

I agree though that DD1 had it about just right. One thing I could suggest (in order to increase the rarity of items) is to avoid instance-based loot and stay to DD1's looting system, so whoever picks up the item first keeps the item first. This makes sense as well if everyone defends their own lanes. However, perhaps there could be a type of dicing system like in large MMOs where when an Ultimate or higher item drops, players have to role a dice and everyone has an equal chance to get it, so some leech can't just snatch it, although that's part of the thrill as well.

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4 hours ago, kitty said:

In DD1, I actually liked that you had to spend 500 hours farming maps to get a potentially good Supreme/Ultimate/Ultimate++ item. All of the players I played with (who were the top players at the time) were large traders and item collectors. They played many hours everyday, either grinding coal in hopes of finding a diamond with nice stats and aesthetics, or farming King's Game looking for that perfect Ultimate++ item.


It's all about the thrill of grinding and not knowing what you might get. One day you could have full Supreme gear and then suddenly the perfect Ultimate++ item drops which is worth more than your entire bank. You now have an option to trade it for a Supreme set for one of your builders or use it/drop it in your tavern to show it off to your friends. That's what I call a "rewarding grind". It's not rewarding if you're guaranteed to get a good item if you put in X hours like in DD2. RNG is actually a wonderful thing and the reason DD1 succeeded.

Take a look at the reasons RuneScape is so successful, which is a game that has had over 100K+ daily players despite being 20 years old. A large reason people still play is is because some items have a 1 in 10,000 droprate. Pets, for example, have a 1 in 250,000 drop rate. And on top of that, you could spend 10,000 hours playing and still not max out.


TLDR:

  • Bring back Supreme, Ultimate, Ultimate++ gear, and diamonds.
  • RNG is a good thing. If it takes 500 hours to (potentially) get 1 Ultimate item, that's perfect. It is an Ultimate item, after all. It's supposed to be ultra rare.
  • Bring back free trading. If there's cash shops in server lists (like there were PayPal taverns in DD1) and people can skip grinding, good. Let them. That means the game is successful and the items actually have merit and people care about them. All successful MMOs deal with this.
  • Bring back dropping items in tavern. Don't try to make some weird auction house with a clunky UI. Bring back the spirit of DD1.

I'd really like to see DD1 come back but with an anti-cheat, improved graphics and animations, and more features and content. I don't want to see a "new" game where Trendy tries to do what they think is the right thing. I do not want to see this game fail like DD2 or DDE.

You nailed it.

I remember first starting out inching my way towards better gear with friends, through natural progression and will power we got there. Then if I hit a wall I was forced to learn strategy. Until Nightmare, when it was a success to last till wave 2 and grab what ever gear dropped like your life depended on it.

Slowly I built my army of defenders and that was so much fun.

DD2’s strategy is build as close to lane entrance and win. Where’s the fun and and feeling of accomplishment of that?

DD2 gave out legendary drops like candy. So did DDE and look how that turned out.

DD2’s onslaught was horrible. Lengthy and boring. DD1’s survival and some may argue DDE’s 1 hour survival were far superior. Don’t have much time to farm some top range gear, kill an hour and you may get it. Have to break and turn the game off? That’s ok DD1 has you covered with letting you start at the wave you previously conquered.

want an added challenge, let’s add hardcore mode and mix mode. I felt hardcore mode was fair in DD1, you die in that wave you respawn in the next as long as you know how to build worth a damn.

DD1 gave me a purpose to farm stage specific rewards and maps that didn’t hold your hand. Diamonds were so much fun, sea horses, pet cats to name a few.

I think how well DDA will turn out is all dependent on how close they follow the original successes. You keep what worked and don’t fix what was never broken.

 

 

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OP i agree with literally everything you said, ive never played dd2 but from what ive heard about onslaught i dont want to spend more than like 2 hours on the same map afking, let alone 5+ hours like some people. i get theres a challenge to onslaught where everything gets harder overtime but i really dislike the idea of sitting in the same map for more than an hour with little to no reason besides bragging rights.

 

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Kitty likes to scratch! All your points are valid, I hope @Elandrian is listening.  

Re instanced loot though, this is a really tough one to decide on, I can't make my mind up!! 

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1 hour ago, Bonnabelle said:

OP i agree with literally everything you said, ive never played dd2 but from what ive heard about onslaught i dont want to spend more than like 2 hours on the same map afking, let alone 5+ hours like some people. i get theres a challenge to onslaught where everything gets harder overtime but i really dislike the idea of sitting in the same map for more than an hour with little to no reason besides bragging rights.

That version of the gamemode has been removed back in 2017. Onslaught is a completely different gamemode now.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, KnowsNoLimits said:

Guess you didn't really play DD2. Let me give my opinion as someone who played. 

 

Quote

I remember I slowly found how relics/gear work. I couldn't get far in onlaught w/o understanding how DD2 worked, how mods/shards can empower my defenses, so I was forced to learn how all pieces of puzzle interact w/ each other, in order to progress. 

 

DD2’s strategy is build as close to lane entrance and win. Where’s the fun and and feeling of accomplishment of that?

If you can build as close to spawn point and win high onslaught, congratulation you beat the game, and you should be at floor 999 right now. Build close is farming method, to get stuff to get u closer to your goal. 

 

DD2 gave out legendary drops like candy. So did DDE and look how that turned out.

Because what make gear powerful are mods. The drop of 10/10 mods anti-melee, tenacity, rate, all those powerful items are very rare. Just because it's a different system for powerful items, doesn't mean it sucks. It is very exciting to get a perfect mod that you desire. 

 

DD2’s onslaught was horrible. Lengthy and boring. DD1’s survival and some may argue DDE’s 1 hour survival were far superior. Don’t have much time to farm some top range gear, kill an hour and you may get it. Have to break and turn the game off? That’s ok DD1 has you covered with letting you start at the wave you previously conquered.

Can't argue that, not drop wise, DD2 only offers something similar ascension wise. Don't have much time to grind your ass to asc 1000 with hundreds of hours? kill some hrs in onslaught in dozens of hours and AP will grant you the power. Have to break and turn the game off? thts ok, dd2 has you covered, with letting you start the floor you previously conquered. (and not even an hour needed, it takes like 10 mins per map, 20 mins top on long maps)

 

want an added challenge, let’s add hardcore mode and mix mode. I felt hardcore mode was fair in DD1, you die in that wave you respawn in the next as long as you know how to build worth a damn.

I agree w/ u on this one. Only way to challenge yourself in DD2 is to climb to high onslaught. They need to have more mode added. 

 

DD1 gave me a purpose to farm stage specific rewards and maps that didn’t hold your hand. Diamonds were so much fun, sea horses, pet cats to name a few.

DD2 gives people purpose to farm stage specific rewards, like mastery for hyper shards. some hours to get your first defense rate shards are also exciting. After hundreds or thousand hours maybe when you are at floor 200 or 300 when you feel needed, you farm to gild a few specific shards. Even better, right now they are bringing in the shard vendor. And with the recent QoL, they give people purpose to farm reroll material. Although it is a grind, you can achieve greatness as long as you willing to put in the time and effort. If you are early in stage from chasing ultimate loot, you can trade em to those who need, and in exchange purchase loot at your stage to progress. 

 

I think how well DDA will turn out is all dependent on how close they follow what the majority population love. Take advice from DD1 players for DD1 features, and from DD2 player for DD2 features. No finger pointed, not taking advice from players about a game which they did not even bother to explore. 

If all DD2 lovers hate on DD1 features, and DD1 lovers hate on DD2 features. Rather than promoting the good, all  are spitting on each other, DDA's going nowhere. 

 

 

 

Edited by hailminion
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16 hours ago, kitty said:
  • Bring back Supreme, Ultimate, Ultimate++ gear, and diamonds.
  • RNG is a good thing. If it takes 500 hours to (potentially) get 1 Ultimate item, that's perfect. It is an Ultimate item, after all. It's supposed to be ultra rare.
  • Bring back free trading. If there's cash shops in server lists (like there were PayPal taverns in DD1) and people can skip grinding, good. Let them. That means the game is successful and the items actually have merit and people care about them. All successful MMOs deal with this.
  • Bring back dropping items in tavern. Don't try to make some weird auction house with a clunky UI. Bring back the spirit of DD1.

I do agree with the above with one condition.  If an Ultimate++ item drops, it should be good and usable.  Taking 500 hours to farm for an item should lead to a usable upgrade.  More common items can have the RNG good/bad drops implemented, but make rarer drops guaranteed usable in some form.

Honestly, I hope the gear system is further expanded upon.  Only focusing on stats alone is somewhat stale, and I feel they can do something to add more variety to builds.  It shouldn't just behaving max tower stats on a builder and everyone's builder monk looks the same.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

I do agree with the above with one condition.  If an Ultimate++ item drops, it should be good and usable.  Taking 500 hours to farm for an item should lead to a usable upgrade.  More common items can have the RNG good/bad drops implemented, but make rarer drops guaranteed usable in some form.

Honestly, I hope the gear system is further expanded upon.  Only focusing on stats alone is somewhat stale, and I feel they can do something to add more variety to builds.  It shouldn't just behaving max tower stats on a builder and everyone's builder monk looks the same.

Nah, if an Ultmate++ item drops, it should have a chance at having the worst stats possible. If you're guaranteed to get a slight upgrade each time, it takes out the thrill and fun of farming and just replaces it with another boring predictable linear grind, like the one on DD2.

Maybe there could be slight upgrades up to say Supreme to where the game is playable (but still not everything like CD), but beyond that it should be all RNG for the best items in the game. They should just bring DD1 back but with better graphics and more features and shit, not a DD1 with an entire progression revamp. It won't work out. If I'm lvl 1 in an endgame map and my friend is farming for me, I should be able to get top-tier loot and skip progression. Who cares?

Edited by kitty
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If i farmed something for 500 hours and then i finally got it - it was crap...that would be the very last time i ever farmed that thing. I'd be lucky if my controller was not planted firmly in the middle of my TV at that point actually LOL. I'd put DD down and go play Diablo 3 or KH3, just out of pure spite TBH.  I'd rather the item be more rare and hard to drop, than drop versions that are not beneficial to you. Bad versions are just increasing the grind, and frustration of players. Especially if there will be no reroll from DD2. 

I think one of the keys of making DDA a success is to not just port over any system exactly as it is from either game. If you want to play DD1/2, go play that instead. We all need to evolve, and make way for plans for DD3 some day. We don't want this franchise to become like Everquest, where ten years after it comes out, everyone is still only playing the first one. DD1 hopefully is not a unique lightning in a bottle scenario. The next iteration should push us all forward, and make us never want to go back to the old system. That is how you know if you have succeeded in evolving a game.

I so desperately cannot wait to see DDA/3 evolve. I want something new, that will wow me. DD grabbed me ever since the first day i saw a preview for it on the PS3. I hope it can find more and more ways to continue to do so. 

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I strongly disagree having excessive amounts of RNG and Grinding is a bad thing and makes the devs look lazy due to artificially increasing the life of the game simply by increasing or decreasing a number to absurd amounts to me that is the exact cause of mind numbing content where you just sit there doing the same thing for a few hundred even thousands of hours hoping for that one item to drop there is absolutely zero skill involved in this type of content it's all about the time investment.

 

I would much rather a challenge of skill not time if you want to invest nothing but time that's good for you but I will never understand why people enjoy a endless time sink.

 

I'm the type of person that likes to reflect on what they have done but in the case of excessive RNG I can reflect on my past 1000 hours and usually see time wasted with absolutely zero progress because some genius thought it was a good idea to change the drop rates from 1% to 0.0001% that is not fun neither is it good content that is more RNG to artificially increasing the life of the game.

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There is something to be said for grinding, but there are some times where it is far too much, and the RNG system in DD1 is not very good.

This is coming from someone approaching 6000 hours in DD1.

The problem that DD1 has is that once you hit roughly 4-5k stats, it becomes very hard to feel regular progression unless you put significant time into maps on a daily basis. Furthermore, sometimes you just get screwed. For example, Temple of Polybius gives an ult++ reward roughly 1 in every 36 run. I had to finish 122 runs to even get an ult++, never mind whether or not it was a usable one. (It was usable, but that's immaterial here)

If you are going to have a grind, you need to be able to feel progress at regular intervals during that grind to keep a playerbase. Sure you can make a .0000000001% drop chance item, but the amount of community that it will hold in your game is tiny. DD1 endgame has survived the length of time that it has not because the drop rate on ult++ is still around 0.5% on some higher end maps that give good items, but because there are people that like the gameplay loop on the way to that 0.5% chance.

RNG does not hold a playerbase; solid game mechanics hold a playerbase. Borderlands 2 tripled its drop rate on Legendary items from 3% to 10% in the final patch several years ago, and its community is still around because the game's core mechanics are strong enough to retain a playerbase. I would also like to point out that if you get a Legendary in BL2, it will always fill the same function as a very strong gun regardless of the spawn you get. Not landing a Practicable Conference Call does not make it a bad drop. Getting an ult++ armor (or any armor for that matter) with 3 negative resistances, less than 300 upgrades, and no tower damage is in fact worthless, unlike any weapon part combination to come out of BL2's part pool.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe we're all missing a key issue that's missing from all TD games at the moment:  'Smart Enemies'.  Think of it:  If enemies could adapt to a player's/team's play-style, detect weakly defended lanes, or strong ones and adjust their attack to counter accordingly; shifting lanes, calling (limited) reinforcements etc.  This would lead to a proper challenge on every map.  Maybe their 'cleverness' scales the higher up the difficulty tiers the player climbs.   Similar in a way to the way computer chess opponent get 'smarter'.

I've also suggested to Chromatic, that they consider adding random weather/nature effects to outdoor maps that actually have an impact on the game.  For example, randomly generated clouds, which move across the sky based on random wind patterns... As they move across the sky, the clouds cast shadows on the ground below (In random places), this could variously buff enemies/nerf defenses.  One can also imagine rain, that may affect fire-based systems (On both sides), lightning strikes that hit random spots, injuring heroes and enemies alike, damaging physical structures.  Standing water could accumulate, and increase chance of electrocution scenarios etc.  Opposite of cloud shadows, could be dynamic sun-rays, (An actual practical use for 'god-rays') which move according to the position of the 'Sun' and the moving/evolving cloud-cover...  Using the stereotype of Good=Light, Bad=Dark, the light boosts our heroes/defenses, while darkness harms them;  Opposite effect on enemies of course.  Lightning could spark a fire, which spreads according to the variable wind direction and as such, may harm anything it touches.  Wind may also dislodge/turn around/knock over defenses, slow heroes/enemies heading into the wind, speed 'em up if heading with the wind direction, affect the course of projectile weapons on both sides, blow smaller enemies off the edge of the map etc.  Such randomness introduced into the maps would bring a real sense of varied challenge and realism to play; as opposed to the simple 'arms-race' grind that is loot progression against ever-tougher enemies.  Something equivalent would need to be figured out for indoor maps. Hmm?  Weather ain't gonna be present, earthquakes perhaps, crystalline structures that evolve and impede defense placement/enemy pathing,  random agitators that sneak into the map and disrupt your defenses, niggle your heroes, or even fight on your side and attack enemies.

 

Actually there's a lot of potential with lightning and fire..  Say for example, a defender wants to mitigate the risk of fire catching their defenses, maybe they have a choice of metal/wooden structures/towers...  Metal would not only resist the fire, but could also introduce some interesting conductive behaviors... But electro-type enemies could use this to their advantage... using those conductive properties to short-circuit nearby towers or shock nearby heroes, or perhaps they're of a type which feeds off energy, so gains a boost to their stats.  Maybe, heroes can place lightning rods, to harness the 1.21 gigawatts (To quote Back to the Future!) of a lightning strike, boosting relevant defenses, or creating kill-zones by laying out pylons at strategic points in an area around lightning-rod, leading to a chained-lightning strike, seriously damaging enemies within the proximity of the arcs.  Maybe metal objects cost a bit more than wooden.  Maybe fire can be gathered up by dark mages, such that they may launch fireballs at heroes/defenses, or even imbue their enemy hordes with additional fire dmg.  Wooden defenses thus become vulnerable.  Heroes may be able to counter such attacks... Water cannon, or drenching attacks/abilities.  Water cannon would be a cool crowd-control tower too eh?  As used in real-life riot control.

 

Personally, I've always found the strategy aspect the most satisfying.  Finding an optimal placement and combo-effects etc gives a greater sense of achievement than the short-lived joy of a more powerful sword.  After all, how quickly the 'just balanced' game-play disappears in current grind-based systems.  I.e.  You pass relatively easily through the early-game, then hit a roadblock as tougher enemies are introduced, then you struggle for a while grinding for better loot.  No sooner has that loot dropped, then this immediately negates the enemies and it becomes boring as you're overpowered and the cycle repeats.  Gets tedious.  Hence all those that aspire to afk.  If the fight was endlessly engaging/challenging, more players would actually 'play' the game as opposed to just farming a setup while they go off and do something else.

 

Food for thought...  Appreciate such effects would require some compute power, so maybe not possible on Switch for example, but I would expect Unreal Engine 4 can assist in many areas here, so maybe, just maybe :-)

Edited by Psiphor
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RNG is fun and healthy to an extent. You guys keep tossing around the term '1000 hours', and I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but that's crazy unhealthy to me. Progress should feel gradual and approachable. Imagine a boreal forested region. It gets a certain amount of rainfall each year, and that rainfall is spread throughout multiple smaller rains. Contrast that to a desert region that floods once or twice a year. In this bizarre metaphor, the rainfall is the progress we make in finding better loot, and the vegetation would be our interest in the game, our desire to keep coming back.

Vast majority of players do not want to sink in 1k hours of no-progress-RNG-slot-machine farming only to one day hit the jackpot and become 10% stronger instantly. It's just not fun compared to the more gradual approach. I've had 4 other friends play DD1 with me after me recommending the game to them, and they were all addicted at first. Leveling up was exciting, sinking mana into items/pets felt rewarding, getting past wave 15 on survival was epic as all hell, it was a blast. But as soon as we started farming the map a second time to get a better spec'd pet, and a third time, and a fourth time, they lost interest. We plateaued, and were now playing the slot machine to make more progress, which would have lead us up to the next plateau anyway.

I get that most of us here at the forums are serious players with serious time to put into this game, but we're special cases. I don't think endgame gear should be as easy to get as leveling up your first hero from 0 to 60, but I don't think you should afk farm the same map on repeat for days on end either. That's just straight boring, and requires a certain type of interest that the vast majority of people don't have.

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with around 2k hours in DD1 and 1.3k in DD2

DD1 i could have expected 4 Ult++ right ?? (500 hours each)... i have 0.. granted alot of that time was before Ult++ came into the game.. but still If the grind is too much i'd move onto another game.. part of the joy of playing games is the rewards.. if the reward is too rare the joy also is too rare ;)..

Sure it doesnt mean to be an upgrade every map ;) but if im not finding something at least once a day or 2 (16 hours) my time is better spent elsewhere ;)

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48 minutes ago, LJMjollnir said:

DD1 i could have expected 4 Ult++ right ?? (500 hours each)

I can get 4 ult++ Blaster Rifles in 8 hours. Maybe even less depending on my map time. How did you come up with that number?

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On 3/11/2019 at 2:06 PM, kitty said:

In DD1, I actually liked that you had to spend 500 hours farming maps to get a potentially good Supreme/Ultimate/Ultimate++ item.

From the OP ;)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LJMjollnir said:

with around 2k hours in DD1 and 1.3k in DD2

DD1 i could have expected 4 Ult++ right ?? (500 hours each)... i have 0.. granted alot of that time was before Ult++ came into the game.. but still If the grind is too much i'd move onto another game.. part of the joy of playing games is the rewards.. if the reward is too rare the joy also is too rare ;)..

Sure it doesnt mean to be an upgrade every map ;) but if im not finding something at least once a day or 2 (16 hours) my time is better spent elsewhere ;)

That's great! It means it was actually an item of Ultimate++ rarity that only few can hope to come across. I'm sure you got up to Supreme though and had good enough gear to play most of the game. For a tower defense game that revolves around looting, DDA needs extremely rare items in order to succeed. Something to slowly grind toward, and not something you're guaranteed to get. The "small, slow, guaranteed upgrades" thing in DD2 and lack of content like diamonds and trading is what made me quit the game.

Edited by kitty
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Aheadatlme said:

RNG is fun and healthy to an extent. You guys keep tossing around the term '1000 hours', and I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but that's crazy unhealthy to me.

Guess you've never played RuneScape where players do thousands of clue scrolls in hopes of getting third age armor which has like a 1 in 1 / 50,000 droprate. 1000 hours would be generous, but eventually those who put in enough time and effort do get the best items in the game, while others get lucky and get it the first time. It's all about prestige and being unique from other players.

Also, I'm not saying you should need 5,000 hours to progress, just 5,000 hours to get the best gear. You could play the game fine without Ultimate gear.

Edited by kitty
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But DD2 has all those things... Mods are quite hard to find at rank 10.. sure you can guarantee a 10 roll by rerolling it 286 times... but that pretty much means playing the same map 286 times ;)

DD2 has trading as well.. not sure what yer Diamonds are i never seen those.. so cant comment on those.. but hey maybe you should have a look at DD2 again.. its changed alot

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1 minute ago, LJMjollnir said:

But DD2 has all those things... Mods are quite hard to find at rank 10.. sure you can guarantee a 10 roll by rerolling it 286 times... but that pretty much means playing the same map 286 times ;)

DD2 has trading as well.. not sure what yer Diamonds are i never seen those.. so cant comment on those.. but hey maybe you should have a look at DD2 again.. its changed alot

It's not the same at all. Just compare and contrast the trading section of the forums on both the DD1 and DD2 forums. The DD1 forums, despite having x3 less active players than DD2 in these times, still has a x3 more active trading forums.

Imagine back in the day in DD1's prime where there was a constant flux of new threads and large forum auctions, some amazing items that could go for like 80 cubes or whatever. If instance-based loot comes back, with more generous droprates and gear roles, a more 'consistent pace of progression', all of that is dead. The game is dead. 

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but if i cant Enjoy the game alone meaning i can do it all.. im probably not going to continue playing it.. interacting with others is not enjoyable for me.. unless its the very few people i have learnt to trust.. there are quite a few people like me out there

Look im not saying its totally bad to have some RNG.. but its a tactic to use when your game doesnt have the content to be good on its own.. DD2's system provides players with that hey im better then you system with AP/Ascension while still looking out for the casuals that want to play the game..

And trading works alot differently in DD2 then DD1.. (atleast from my memory of DD1).. DD2 has the player hubs that support 20 players.. you jump into town and your shop is open for anyone to look through.. DD1 off memory was a game browser system that supported 4 players in the tavern and only that player could list items ??... so straight up your market in DD2 is way bigger and doesnt need the forums to make it work which is most likely why you dont see as many trading posts ;)..

for some of the exceptional items you'l see auction posts or messages on the Discord server but dont let the lack of forum posts make you think that DD2's trading isnt happening ;)

as i said its been ages since ive looked at DD1 so there might have been some changes along the way that ive missed so do let me know if im wrong on that part

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I agree that the absolute best top tier gear should require proportional requirements. If you want the best gear you should have to put in the time necessary. I would just rather there be a balanced first run through the game. If it requires me to grind for hours and hours just to start the game then I don't want to play. I would rather DD:A be a Hybrid of the DD1's and DD2's progression system or something new entirely. I want the gear I get to give me interesting choices instead of just giving bigger numbers. I will be totally fine if the Ultra late game content is only available to the hardcore players but I would like there to be enough meat for the causal or at least medium core group of players. The fact that you may never even see an ultimate++ weapon with good stats is fantastic but that only works if there is enough of the rest of the game for that to work around imo.

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10 hours ago, kitty said:

Also, I'm not saying you should need 5,000 hours to progress, just 5,000 hours to get the best gear. You could play the game fine without Ultimate gear.


This concept is something I'm more in line with. Playing through all the main campaign maps and most of the DLC on something like Hard/Insane on Hardcore mode should be a widely available objective. I don't mind, and would actually strongly suggest, that cream of the crop gear be much harder to come across, and that the most difficult maps on the most difficult settings be extremely difficult to beat. Really healthy for the game that you have that super top tier replayability and goals to reach. I'm mostly talking about the other 80-90% of the game's content when I mention a more reasonable pace of progress.

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