Jump to content
Sophisticus

What the Hero Deck is

Recommended Posts

The easiest way to explain it would be the ability to swap characters using hotkeys and the hotkeys are reassignable during any build wave.

The reason for this post is for those who are confused as to what a hero deck would mean in DDA if it were to come through, as from what I have noticed very many players from DD1 are confused on the subject.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not confused. Set in their ways. I have 7k hours in DD1, very little in DD2 but I liked the hero swapping system of dd2 a lot. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So it's exactly what I thought it was. I will agree that it has its utility, but my points on the drawbacks of the system are just as valid. It still decreases map preparation and decision making, which I disagree with.

Does this also work during combat?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

You can change your heroes between the four in your deck during Combat Phase, but you can not change the hero deck during combat phase, or access the inventory at all.

It gives you freedom vs the lack of. DD1 you literally start every map with your aura monk, build auras, so on and so fourth. Look at WW and think of how many times you run a circle around that map in order to build it. This would make it so you don't have to do 4 full circles to build a single map. 

Edited by Sophisticus
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sophisticus said:

You can change your heroes between the four in your deck during Combat Phase, but you can not change the hero deck during combat phase, or access the inventory at all.

It gives you freedom vs the lack of. DD1 you literally start every map with your aura monk, build auras, so on and so fourth. Look at WW and think of how many times you run a circle around that map in order to build it. This would make it so you don't have to do 4 full circles to build a single map. 

Agreed. I think as a tower defense game it should be a focus on strategy and placement of towers, not trying to speedrun each build phase running around the map 4 times with if you dont place the towers right or if you bump the wrong wall and lose momentum you wont have enough time to make it back to the forge and switch. I get the timer is there for a challenge on nm but i think circling the map multiple times is a bit ridiculous.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dankyroo said:

Agreed. I think as a tower defense game it should be a focus on strategy and placement of towers, not trying to speedrun each build phase running around the map 4 times with if you dont place the towers right or if you bump the wrong wall and lose momentum you wont have enough time to make it back to the forge and switch. I get the timer is there for a challenge on nm but i think circling the map multiple times is a bit ridiculous.

It's becoming pretty clear that there is a divide.  The people that love DD2, want it one way and the DD1 diehards want it the DD1 way.  As I said previously, that path around the map and the order you pick up chests and the heros/costumes/pets you use are all strategic in how you are able to solve the puzzle of a particular map.  What you see as an annoyance, we see as a fun part of the strategy of the game.  As I said elsewhere, you may want to ponder why DD1 was a bigger hit that DD2.

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Sophisticus said:

You can change your heroes between the four in your deck during Combat Phase, but you can not change the hero deck during combat phase, or access the inventory at all.

It gives you freedom vs the lack of. DD1 you literally start every map with your aura monk, build auras, so on and so fourth. Look at WW and think of how many times you run a circle around that map in order to build it. This would make it so you don't have to do 4 full circles to build a single map. 

You circle around Winter Wonderland 3 times, and only if you use a very outdated build that takes twice as long as the new LT/DST builds. Furthermore, the route that was used in that old build existed because it was the result of people figuring out how to most effectively use the time they were given to place the necessary towers. This goes back to my original point on this system, that adding this hero deck reduces the amount of planning that goes into map builds. That is far more valuable to me than any "freedom" this system offers.

It looks like we are at an impasse on either personal opinion or gameplay preferences, so I won't continue this until I see some new points made on the subject.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is DD:A starting with all the DLC out DD, Like DD:E, or must they be bought or are they free content or other things (logically when they travel back in time they must have all the stuff, or?)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A big part of DD1 is route planning (and some random standing next to the forge) and building to a timer, I want these back for DDA 

 

Hopefully they won't have the bug of not switching near the timers end, or as a compromise allow 1 change per active wave but this just be done at the forge?????

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

So it's exactly what I thought it was. I will agree that it has its utility, but my points on the drawbacks of the system are just as valid. It still decreases map preparation and decision making, which I disagree with.

Does this also work during combat?

Not necessarily.  Decrease the pre-map timer in DD1, allow hero swapping on the fly, and you now have both more options in building but still have to do it quickly.  DD2 did this in Mastery Mode on a few maps.  Adds more creative freedom, requires preparation, and still has challenge.

This would also decrease the amount of time it would take to run a map.  DD1 has a major problem with that.  To get any upgraded gear often takes hours.  DD2 each map is 15-30 minutes and provides the same chance of an upgrade.

I don't have the time to invest five hours on a Saturday anymore farming gear like I did when I played DD1.

Edited by gotrunks712
Update
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Hover Tower 2000 said:

standing next to the forge

I'm fine with build timers, but please remove the need to run back and forth to the forge and be limited on hero swapping.  Games should give freedom, not limit you to create artificial difficulty.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gotrunks712 said:

I'm fine with build timers, but please remove the need to run back and forth to the forge and be limited on hero swapping.  Games should give freedom, not limit you to create artificial difficulty.

Isn't that games though, create difficulty artificially... :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am confused as to why anyone would want it to take longer to do builds. Having to go back to the forge doubles-triples-and so forth the amount of time it takes to build, and really only sets to encourage you to use as few heroes in your build as possible to save time. In DD1, i really only used bare min setups each time, especially due to the timer. In DD2, i was able to use my entire roster of heroes and use towers from every single one in all my builds. DD2 was incredibly better at encouraging advanced builds from multiple heroes and expressing creativity. Considering the absolutely insane amount of maps we need to grind out in this franchise each game, i find it shocking that people want the build part of the game to take longer in any way. I guess to each their own, but i would find it  major drawback if DDA did not allow hero swapping on at least the build phase.

On combat phase, the need for long range versus melee heroes at times made swapping a must, especially when facing something like a Roller or Drakenlord, and if you don't have enough DEF/HP or have that Burning Strikes shard - you will likely die. Glass heroes just can't keep up with melee focused situations (i.e. Dark Assassin = instant death).  But then if you have heavy inbound air lane issues, your melee hero is not up to the task. On so many maps being able to at least swap to these two heroes was a must. If we lost this, i bet everyone would mostly play Monk, as that would be the only hero who has one foot firmly planted in both the long range and melee worlds - which to me reduces creativity in how you play the game. 

To me, swapping only serves to open the game up more to the player. Allows you access to more hero fight styles and builds. By the end of DD2 i have something like 30+ heroes all fully decked out, and i love using all of them as much as possible. It got so boring in DD1 always having every DEF basically be a Squire based one, as that was the meta (for PS3 at least). I am looking at each new game in this franchise to keep pushing creativity and ways to expand how you play the game. The forge IMO moves in the opposite direction of that. The difficulty in playing the game should come from the maps and enemies, nit in the difficulty of getting your heroes out to lay down the def you want. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

-snip=

Whoo boy! This makes me really appreciate the DD2 hero deck and swapping feature even more now. The situations and pace in DD2 quite calls for that indeed.

I didn't know DD1 build phase has a timer until this thread. Feels like Mastery all over again?

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Whoo boy! This makes me really appreciate the DD2 hero deck and swapping feature even more now. The situations and pace in DD2 quite calls for that. 

I didn't know DD1 build phase has a timer. Mastery & Bastille Master all over again?

Yeah, building in DD1 was a much different process than DD2. The timer was not the biggest issue to me (or forge swapping), but the limited DU was the bigger thing to deal with. You often did not have enough DU to go out and build your 100% perfect def on wave 1. You kind of had to have 2 builds - 1) what you did on wave 1 to survive, and then 2) what you swapped out to make it how you actually wanted it. As an example - with squire on wave 1, you would place a ton of Bouncer Blockades, but would then swap then out for Spinning Blades on subsequent waves as you earned enough DU to do so. By wave 3 you usually were in your final layout and could focus on upgrading or DPS. 

Take all of what i am saying with a grain of salt though. it has been years since we could even fire up DD1 on the PS3, so i am going by memory. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

Yeah, building in DD1 was a much different process than DD2. The timer was not the biggest issue to me (or forge swapping), but the limited DU was the bigger thing to deal with. You often did not have enough DU to go out and build your 100% perfect def on wave 1. You kind of had to have 2 builds - 1) what you did on wave 1 to survive, and then 2) what you swapped out to make it how you actually wanted it. As an example - with squire on wave 1, you would place a ton of Bouncer Blockades, but would then swap then out for Spinning Blades on subsequent waves as you earned enough DU to do so. By wave 3 you usually were in your final layout and could focus on upgrading or DPS. 

Take all of what i am saying with a grain of salt though. it has been years since we could even fire up DD1 on the PS3, so i am going by memory. 

Wow, that is somewhat interesting. I mean this case does happen in DD2 if your build isn't working but in DD1 it seems to be a necessity due to DU constraints....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

I am confused as to why anyone would want it to take longer to do builds. Having to go back to the forge doubles-triples-and so forth the amount of time it takes to build, and really only sets to encourage you to use as few heroes in your build as possible to save time. In DD1, i really only used bare min setups each time, especially due to the timer. In DD2, i was able to use my entire roster of heroes and use towers from every single one in all my builds. DD2 was incredibly better at encouraging advanced builds from multiple heroes and expressing creativity. Considering the absolutely insane amount of maps we need to grind out in this franchise each game, i find it shocking that people want the build part of the game to take longer in any way. I guess to each their own, but i would find it  major drawback if DDA did not allow hero swapping on at least the build phase.

On combat phase, the need for long range versus melee heroes at times made swapping a must, especially when facing something like a Roller or Drakenlord, and if you don't have enough DEF/HP or have that Burning Strikes shard - you will likely die. Glass heroes just can't keep up with melee focused situations (i.e. Dark Assassin = instant death).  But then if you have heavy inbound air lane issues, your melee hero is not up to the task. On so many maps being able to at least swap to these two heroes was a must. If we lost this, i bet everyone would mostly play Monk, as that would be the only hero who has one foot firmly planted in both the long range and melee worlds - which to me reduces creativity in how you play the game. 

To me, swapping only serves to open the game up more to the player. Allows you access to more hero fight styles and builds. By the end of DD2 i have something like 30+ heroes all fully decked out, and i love using all of them as much as possible. It got so boring in DD1 always having every DEF basically be a Squire based one, as that was the meta (for PS3 at least). I am looking at each new game in this franchise to keep pushing creativity and ways to expand how you play the game. The forge IMO moves in the opposite direction of that. The difficulty in playing the game should come from the maps and enemies, nit in the difficulty of getting your heroes out to lay down the def you want. 

It's all part of the unique challenge of building in DD1.  DD1 was more popular than DD2.  So the devs are going back to do a refresh to DD1 and get some cash for an eventual DD3.  They'll have to carefully weigh why many DD1 players didn't like DD2.  Hopefully they'll get it right.  Sure, lots of DD2 players will be annoyed just like lots of DD1 players were annoyed with DD2 and didn't play the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

DD2 became frustrating because choice was removed from players through successive broken updates; not because we could easily switch between heroes / fix builds during combat phases / take our time to plan out a map.

Edited by Little Magic Hat
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Paloverde zfogshooterz said:

Wow, that is somewhat interesting. I mean this case does happen in DD2 if your build isn't working but in DD1 it seems to be a necessity due to DU constraints....

It wasn't DU constraints, it was the limited mana to build with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So why not combine both ideas?

 

For examble. 

DD1. 60secs to build.

DDA 45 secs to build due to cut down time with hero swapping.

This way you can still hero swap with a limited hero build time and to make it fair the time build should vary from map to map. Larger maps require more build time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Granted it's a separate argument, but I always thought the hero deck was a silly idea to begin with, and the fact that design considerations kept flopping back and forth meant that Trendy wasn't really sure what their intentions were either...

  • I think the original concept was that by hamstringing the number of characters a player could bring into a map, that it would promote teamwork in Online Multiplayer. The problem was that not everyone plays Dungeon Defenders multiplayer, and so people complained.
  • They then changed the Hero Deck just to a predefined group of heroes that you could change outside of Combat (i.e. trade other heroes into and out of your deck), and hot-swap between your deck characters in the middle of combat, ultimately undoing everything they 'assumed' was a good idea to start with. Granted the metaphor doesn't really carry from DD1 to DD2, but at least in DD2, you'd coordinate which person on the team would bring a good Cat pet, which would bring a solid raw dps character, which would bring a Boost Monk, or Summoner DPS w/ boosting pets, etc. etc. -- I don't remember quite the same level of planning involved for DD2 combat, unless someone can help me out? Only thing I can remember was that it was sometimes useful to have a Taunt Squire in the group, but even then, I don't think remember that ever being a necessity.
  • (They also implemented changes that effectively combined your builder characters with your dps characters, but I suppose that's a different story...)

I'm almost certain that I'm missing some design changes in between the bullets above that could have furthered the point some more, but hopefully you guys at least partially followed DD2 as well and know where I'm coming from. Why have a Hero Deck at all? What purpose does it serve? Is it now strictly just your list of hot-swap characters? Why have a limit for the number of hot-swaps? (obviously there's a hard limit with keyboard mapping, but you know what I mean...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

P.S. for the record, I have no strong opinions for / against being able to hot-swap characters, but I didn't like being able to swap mid-combat, because then everyone had whichever DPS they wanted at any given time

I think hot-swapping between builders makes sense in the context of DD2's limitless build phases -- equivalent to DD1's survival build phases -- because you could quickly swap to another builder to see if you could fit a particular defense tucked in a corner somewhere, or could finish a build at one crystal with all builders instead of building hero defenses separately in waves at all crystals simultaneously (@ fellow DD1 players: think of this like the new Emerald City map, where each crystal has its own Forge).

...BUT...

Even with everything said above, I enjoyed the aspect of coming up with builder routes to get Mana from Chests, and determining which defense types would be able to get me through Wave 1 to finish my build on the next build phase. To champions of DD2: yes, I will admit that this almost always meant Aura Stacks and Buff Beams for the 1st Build Phase, but don't use that as ammunition against the concept! DDA has the chance to succeed at making the "Build Phase 1" defense type choice meaningful again! (would be easy enough to do with balancing or simple changes to available mana at the start of the map).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, g_cracka88 said:

Even with everything said above, I enjoyed the aspect of coming up with builder routes to get Mana from Chests, and determining which defense types would be able to get me through Wave 1 to finish my build on the next build phase. To champions of DD2: yes, I will admit that this almost always meant Aura Stacks and Buff Beams for the 1st Build Phase, but don't use that as ammunition against the concept! DDA has the chance to succeed at making the "Build Phase 1" defense type choice meaningful again! (would be easy enough to do with balancing or simple changes to available mana at the start of the map).

DDA can still have difficulty without making a significant portion of playtime gathering mana from chests and running the same path multiple times to build.  Hero swapping in the build phase is something that is needed in this game.  Don't waste players time needlessly.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gotrunks712 said:

DDA can still have difficulty without making a significant portion of playtime gathering mana from chests and running the same path multiple times to build.  Hero swapping in the build phase is something that is needed in this game.  Don't waste players time needlessly.

You are missing the point. There are people that enjoy the concept of properly pathing. This is not a waste of time, it is a gameplay element in and of itself. The idea that hotswapping is "needed" is an opinion, and just that. Dropping phrases like "Don't waste players' time needlessly" implies that there is no value to the idea of pathing the first build phase in a map, which I and several others in this thread disagree with. Please stop treating your opinion as a point of fact.

That said, Chromatic does seem to want to go in the direction of hotswapping (in build phase only, see Elandrian's post here) so we'll see how it pans out. In my opinion, there are only very few (poorly designed) maps where I agree that build phase hotswapping is a good thing. See Emerald City and Crystalline Dimension map 2. Emerald City even has 3 forges specifically for this, since the map is so large that it is legitimately is a waste of time to traverse the map, and the build phase is so long that you will almost never run into time issues regardless.

I am far more interested in the combat phase hotswapping than build phase, but that is solely because I'm almost 100% sure that DD1 character mechanics would cause it to completely ruin certain maps and I wanted to see it happen just for laughs.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...