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Martin Arcainess

What you want and don't want in DDA

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Posted (edited)

What I want

  • Good group-leader functionality (kick). The one who starts the map owns it.
  • Be able to easily switch between hiding and opening the map for additional players.
  • Survival runs
  • I want the top-down strategy view of the summoner from dd1 (and I want the summoner from dd1)
  • DDA should be tower-focused like DD1. 
  • Good inventory and management functions.
  • Rare superloot (items that roll past the normal values) to keep you chasing
  • Support roles like "upgrade jester" and boost monk
  • Make pets more interesting just like in DD1
  • Genie- and djinn pets + vanwolvenstein 
  • Wheel o' fortuna with kill % and heal towers and players

 

What I dont want

  • I dont want DDA to be a hero focused game. It should primarily be a tower focused game. DD2 became way too focused on heros.
  • I don't want maps to last longer than an hour. Make them more intense, but not longer
  • Not too many bosses (some here and there is fine, but too many of them and you turn DDA into hero focus again)
Edited by krsans78
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what i want:

  • dd1 map overview, it was easy to see what was coming from where and where everything was.
  • Loot system from dd1 but a little more modern. i want strong weapons to have different stats. 1 drops with more damage and the next one might drop with better projectile spread. i love that you have to grind for a certain weapon but dont make it to hard. Make the player grind really hard for the perfect version of the weapon.
  • i liked the fact that you had to choose one character for the whole wave in dd1. You had to make a decision, take a strong dps but if something is damaged it takes really long to repair or take a balanced character that does but decently well, i feel like having 4 characters all the time also hurts team play. In dd1 it was super fun to play with friends and all focus on your character of choice, although that is of course still a thing you could do in dd2 it felt different.
  • I WANT MY TOWERS TO BE INSANE. In dd1 progressing armor was so much fun because you could see improvement. getting extra tower speed made your tower shoot faster. Sometimes a lot faster. it was super fun to grind for laser harpoons and ongoing deadly strikers or huge monk auras.  These visible improvements made the game super fun and i missed those a lot in dd2. i didn't feel like i was getting stronger like i was in dd1.
  •  dd1 pets, they were a little more fun in my opinion.
  • i want a long story, more maps to go through to get to the end. This way the character progression could be a little smoother as well. The transition from main story to harder maps was sometimes a bit off.
  • dd1 like challenges.
  • less things to be confused about then dd2. i played the game a lot in the beginning but took a break, when i came back i just deleted all my characters because the game was so full of things that the only way for me to get back in was to start over.
  • unlimited characters. in dd1 i could make a new character whenever to start over with a friend without having to delete something i worked on for a while or paying extra.
  • BRING BACK AUTO SELL LIKE DD1
  • pvp was super fun. in tower wars spawning waves of spiders and djinns on friends and hearing them panic on discord make me so happy.

things i disliked :

  • shards in dd2 were a lot of the time completely useless and it wasn't fun to grind a single shard 20 times because all your characters needed these four shards because they were the best.
  • the squire walking forward while hitting in dd2.
  • weird progression in dd2, there were like 5 game modes and after coming back i had no idea what to do or when to do it.
  • inventory management, in dd1.

discussion  with myself:

im not sure if want instanced loot. i kind of liked having to fight for the loot. While i was playing with friends it was  a lot of fun to share loot and give a certain armor piece to a friend because they needed it a little more or keeping it from them and selling it to them for other stuff. it made multiplayer more multiplayer.

i missed the old characters and the feel a lot in dd2, but because i quit dd2  a while i go im probably missing a lot of good features from dd2.

but the thing i want most are the insane towers and way to fast characters. i was so much fun to grind for it .im super confident dda will be super fun and i cant wait for i to come out so i cant play through another campaign with friends and like my ass of every time a goblins runs into my friends and kills them.

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1 hour ago, RoeliusMaximus said:

discussion  with myself:

im not sure if want instanced loot. i kind of liked having to fight for the loot. While i was playing with friends it was  a lot of fun to share loot and give a certain armor piece to a friend because they needed it a little more or keeping it from them and selling it to them for other stuff. it made multiplayer more multiplayer.

 

4

 

This could indeed be my problem with the dd2 multiplayer. DD1 did feel more like true multiplayer and i think i prefer the loot per map available for all players :)

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 I just want the good old Dungeon Defenders.. I want it to feel like I'm back when I was 14 yo and having fun farming Morrago for this awesome stats on my sword.. Don't put all of those ascension and mods, maybe a prestige or evolution systeme?

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I think we need a better post-game analysis than the one in DD1.  This is especially true when massacre mode exists.  Right now, it is missing a lot of pretty important statistics.  It would be really nice to know more about how towers are destroyed, and which enemies are doing X amount of damage to both towers and players (among others, but these two are almost required to be added in my opinion, if this functionality is in place at all).  It's incredibly hard to try keep an eye on every tower and enemy on most mid to high end nightmare maps.

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@UncrownedData

I always wanted an instant replay to see what killed the crystal, and how. Both in dd1 and dd2...

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ryzours said:

@UncrownedData

I always wanted an instant replay to see what killed the crystal, and how. Both in dd1 and dd2...

I meant to include core damage in my post, too. Instant replay would be nice, but might also be hard to differentiate certain things in a replay, for one example, ogre splash damage or a kobold getting too close, or a combination of both.. hard numbers would give a more clear answer. Of course having numbers AND a replay would be perfect.

Edited by UncrownedData
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Some sort  of replay would be great especially for those times it seems the core died  out of nowhere (which could actually happen). Would also be cool/funny for those moments we failed and died in hardcore if it replayed our deaths xd.

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What I'm most hopeful for:

 

  • Accessing the forge from anywhere - Every map that requires diverse tower construction forces you to sprint around the whole map at least four times. e.g Temple of Water, I'd have to begin as EV and place buff beams and grab chests along the way, make it back to the forge and repeat the process with Adept, Initiate, Huntress, and Demoness. Having access to the forge from the esc menu (or character hotkey) will make this process less tedious and slightly faster, as well as accessing items and such for those who want to equip a pet with better stats that don't offer a movement speed increase.
  • Looting system from DD1, but with a minor change - Grinding in DD1 is fun, but obtaining an Ult/+/++ piece that is missing a core stat stings real bad. I believe that Hero damage, Tower damage, and resistances should be core stats that can not be unrolled or lost because it rolled a 0.
  • Lightning Tower and Deadly Striker Tower properly nerfed - DDE nerfed these two towers and the nerf was way too harsh. Lightning Towers can only affect a few enemies for a few seconds with awful range, and Deadly Striker Towers can not damage the boss. The right way to nerf these towers is by simply decreasing the damage effectiveness on the Lightning Towers overtime scaled on duration, decreasing the firing rate on Deadly Striker Towers with the addition of setting target priority, or increasing defense unit cost from 9 to 10.
  • Event items that are not overpowered - If you plan on doing event items, don't do it the way the CDT did in DD1. Although the events were fun, the item rewards are incredibly powerful. Too powerful. Make event item's a souvenir for participating that isn't more powerful than Supreme or Ultimate grade. As long as you can grind a better version or variant of the event item, there will be no problems.
  • No splitscreen advantage for grinding loot - If you didn't grind with splitscreen enabled you are effectively limiting yourself from receiving more map rewards. This is an issue because you have to choose between grinding gear four-times faster, or playing with friends. A solution to this is by rewards the account used to play the game four-times the loot than normal, instead of rewarding 1 x each hero on the map. So, if you were to play with friends on a four player map, everyone will receive four items instead of one, and if you played with split screen you will still only get four items because it's not based on how many heroes are in the map, and it will be fair for everyone playing with you locally. This can be done because it's been done in DD1 with the Crystalline Dimension. No matter how many characters you bring, your account will only be rewarded with one Crystalline weapon.
  • Endless option for Survival mode, or just Endless mode - More often than usual, I don't play survival mode to complete it, I play it to grind map drops. Sometimes, having the option to play longer is far more better and less tedious than having to reach the wave limit and rebuild. If you can go beyond the wave limit, loot should not get any better. Loot should be capped at the original wave limit, but mobs should continue to increasingly become more powerful so it warrants a place on the leaderboards for furthest wave reached.
  • EXP - Grinding EXP in DD1 was a pain, and it's worse in DDE. DD2 did it right with the deck system, but only having four heroes at a time will suck for DD:A. I think EXP should be shared with every hero you have made thus far.

 

Bye.

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Host Kick plz. 

What I want: Server based or not, host who created the room should ALWAYS have the right to decide whether to kick or not.

What I DON'T want: I can go in any random room and kick the host, just for the sake of kicking, cuz I hav a friend playing with me, and 2 > 1

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1 hour ago, hailminion said:

Host Kick plz. 

What I want: Server based or not, host who created the room should ALWAYS have the right to decide whether to kick or not.

What I DON'T want: I can go in any random room and kick the host, just for the sake of kicking, cuz I hav a friend playing with me, and 2 > 1

Already discussed to death. Host kick was so much abused in DD1 that most people played solo.

The best solution proposed so far IMO is a blacklist, so whoever trolls you, trolls you only once. This would help either with hostkick or votekick.....

 

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Ryzours said:

Already discussed to death. Host kick was so much abused in DD1 that most people played solo.

The best solution proposed so far IMO is a blacklist, so whoever trolls you, trolls you only once. This would help either with hostkick or votekick.....

 

If I know a person always kick on wave 5, once I enter and see him hosting, I can just leave? I lose maybe 30 second for re-entering (they get nothing by kicking except ruining their own names anyway, and lose all the bonus from multi-player at the end)

but by vote kick, I can literally join any game I want with a friend, that host has to get kicked by me with no choice, except playing private, and lose wtv win streak he's on, or map he already built. 

For me, it's more of, which one has a better solution, which one has no solution at all on player side.  (I agree, if we can have a blacklist to prevent joining, on system/design side, both will work. I'm merely suggesting based on the assumption such feature won't be developed. )

Edited by hailminion
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Both systems were flawed IMO. Here's hoping CG comes up with a net new method that alleviates both issues. 

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Hello, please take some time to consider my thoughts. Some things may already be listed above but here are some things I'd like to see in DDA:

1.  Ability to re-spec gear, pets and items the same way you can re-spec your DD hero for a cost at the tavern shop. This would make it so that players can more effectively customize their character. The number of upgrades would be more important and you could choose to opt for items you like more for appearance and less for stats because you could customize more for your build. This would also help satisfy people irritated about a great item with +200 health but -300 attack.

2.  Hero shops run in a virtual marketplace. MMORPG style. An open world "market" if you will. A place you can opt to go to, "Defenders/Hero Plaza/Market? People could buy, sell and trade items with both npc's and other players in one place. Separate from each others personal taverns. Picture yourself going out to the shops in the city and defenders with gear to sell each have a market stand or little shop. People can compare gear, items, pets, and prices of everything all in one common location!

3. Remove hero speed as an upgrade option and build it into the leveling system. Speed maxed out at 100. After that it was just a waste of points...you couldn't change it either but it could also be fixed by what I mentioned above in (1). Maybe come up with something else in its place? Swap it with abilities? 

4. Leveling restrictions. Need more limitations. level one character shouldn't be able to hop onto tavern defense map with a max char helping and be lvl 80 in 2 hours. Cool if you're the person leveling up fast. Not fair to others because not everyone has friends to carry them through games. Also, defeats the point of playing through the game with a character if you're gonna jump straight through 80% of everything so that you can have the monk orbs that you "really needed."

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this! Hope my ideas are considered for the new game!

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want: build timers

dont want: jester wheel to be a thing

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On 3/9/2019 at 12:56 PM, Fozzie said:

Don't change one thing from DD1, just upgrade the graphics and ensure no hacking.

Don't do anything stupid like DDE where ridiculous over powered ideas destroyed the balance. Talk with the community devs that took on DD1 after it was left to rot, they did a lot of good stuff.

Fix the terrible lag on high end Nightmare maps when using large lightning auras.

The game was pretty much perfect until all the hacks destroyed it.

DDE was ruinded by the devs

DD2 just had no proper direction, swing from this to that to this agin and then the awful ascension idea.

DD1 did survival correctly don't for god sake fork that up, although DDE putting a time limit on it worked well, perhaps you could have as switch, between original and time limited best of both worlds.

For good ness sake play DD1 yourselves from 0 to 100, from easy to NMHCMM and see what it was all about.

Please listen to Fozzie's words and dont wreck the DD1's reputation.

DD1 is a masterpiece!

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Posted (edited)

I don't like doing unhelpful stuff like this. Since ppl already doing it tho, I'll do wtv it takes for DDA to be great, by devs don't get the wrong idea from one-sided narrow minds. 

Don't change one thing from DD2, just ensure no bugs & lags.

Stick with most DD2 balance, where even until now, no one, zero person has reached 999 hardest difficulty. Talk with the DD2 community, they had many good ideas on many things. 

Fix the terrible lag on Lost Temple maps.

The game was pretty much perfect until all the bugs/lags degraded it.

DD2 just had perfect direction, from hero deck, to inventory access, to reroll protection mechanics, to drops, to shards vendor, to Ancient Power and the wonderful ascension idea.

DD2 did AP & onslaught mutators correctly, don't for god sake fork that up. Although Mastery putting a time limit on maps worked well, perhaps you could have as switch, to make onslaught best of both worlds.

For good ness sake play DD2 yourselves from Floor 1 to Floor 900, from afk to active playing all the time, and see what it was all about.

DD2 is a masterpiece

Edited by hailminion

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My expectation was raised on the basis of the kickstarter project page:

KziCSBZ.png

I hope "soul of the original" doesn't just mean original maps/chars.

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8 hours ago, hailminion said:

I don't like doing unhelpful stuff like this. Since ppl already doing it tho, I'll do wtv it takes for DDA to be great, by devs don't get the wrong idea from one-sided narrow minds. 

 

I am confused as to why you would begin your post with that specific wording and then go on to invert Fozzie's post in a way that doesn't help your argument. DD2 has several good aspects to it, but you touched on exactly one of them in your post.

 

In an effort to be constructive, the things I liked about DD2 were:

1. The tower placement system was objectively an upgrade over DD1 in every aspect.

2. The RNG system confined loot stats to a much smaller range, making maps always drop appropriate loot for the map's difficulty.

3. The devs understood that the people playing DD2 were people who, coming in, were interested in the endgame grind and designed the game appropriately. It takes about 9 hours in DD2 to go from 0 to 50, you don't have to replay the campaign maps 3 times to reach the endgame, and the endgame gameplay loop begins basically at 9 hours of playtime. I may think that the way endgame is designed is absolutely awful, but I appreciate that the devs let me get there in less than 30 hours as a new player to the game.

4. Mods are a neat concept that I really liked the direction of and hope come back, but I don't think it went far enough. I'm not too crazy about shards because of what I've heard about gilding and I've also only encountered one shard that actually looks useful. (Destruction shard)

There may be more than that, but as of the moment I can only think of things that killed my interest in playing the game.

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Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

and then go on to invert Fozzie's post in a way that doesn't help your argument

Everything I listed are facts based on DD2 game play after thoroughly thinking through, rather than brainlessly inverting words. They included both the goods and bads of DD2. 

 

2 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

I may think that the way endgame is designed is absolutely awful, but I appreciate that the devs let me get there in less than 30 hours as a new player to the game.

I assumed u did only the tutorial of the game, aka campaign thru C7?(where they teach you abt different types of enemies and let u experiment with defenses)  Cuz, There's absolutely no way anyone can finish mastery, and get to F300 ish and do Ancient Power in less than 30 hrs, even 300 hrs is highly doubtful. But if u referring to Campaign thru C7, I (& many vet players) can manage to finish the full tutorial in way less than 5 hrs with a fresh account. 

Edited by hailminion

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, hailminion said:

All aspects I listed are facts based on DD2 game play after thoroughly thinking through, rather than brainlessly inverting words. They included both goods and bads of DD2. 

all right then.

13 hours ago, hailminion said:

Don't change one thing from DD2, just ensure no bugs & lags.
...
DD2 is a masterpiece

Since you stated that those are facts, let's go through some problems that show you are currently spewing just as much, if not more, garbage than DD1 people right now.

The game never explains to the player what elemental combos are or which ones there are. You have to go outside of the game to know if they even exist.

The game never explains to the player the mechanics of any of the mini-bosses.

The spawn quality of loot, thanks to the gear upgrade system, is now entirely meaningless.

Finding the weapon you want is a complete crapshoot. If you want a bow with 5 projectiles or a staff with 10, there is no map which you can go to and say "I will find something close to what I need here"

Furthermore, weapons in the game are massively downgraded. The special effects of weapons from games past are completely missing. The best you can do is mod on generic effects like oil or other elemental damage for those sick CC combos that the game never tells you about and that towers do better anyway.

Speaking of mods, the drop rate on T10 mods is garbage, and the reroll rates are just as bad if not worse. At least you have a pity timer, but that underscores the problem with the system. You are meant to have T10 mods for higher Onslaught levels, but the drop rates are so low the devs had to give you a failsafe to even get your hands on them.

Pets were also neutered in DD2. In DD1 and DDE a pet could change the entire purpose and playstyle of the character it was put on. In DD2 the best I can say for pets is that they were stat sticks with negligible effects. (Keep in mind that the game only held my interest for 30 hours so take that with a dump truck of salt)

The pets clearly don't like it either. Anyone can compare the Propeller cats in DD1 and DD2 and see which one is happier. :squire_small:

DD2 also mostly copied DDE's godawful pet hatching system, so you go through the lottery trying to find whatever pet you might be looking for in the first place

The difference with the system is instead of DDE's in-wave timer to hatch, you can outright lose eggs instead of forgetting about them. In exchange you can hatch the eggs right away. So they barely made the system a wash instead of outright worse.

Character customization is practically nonexistant in DD2. The best you can get is skins, which every other game has. I have yet to see any place to alter colors, and accessories don't exist, which is a massive step down from DDE, where every color on every item could be customized.

 

DD2 is far from a flawless game, let alone a "masterpiece". It's fine if you want to praise DD2 as a good game, and I certainly won't disagree, but to assert that every single design decision that was made was good when it can be clearly shown as a direct downgrade is being a bit unreasonable. I could do the same thing I did here with DD1 and DDE, but I'm not calling them God's gift to video games. I want DD:A to be the best it can be as a Dungeon Defenders game, which is why I specifically listed features that I think improved the game. Blanket statements that any game ought to be replicated exactly with no improvements when long lists of faults can be rattled off at a moment's notice is entirely unhelpful to devs or anyone else who wants to analyze a game to improve their own.

 

Edited by Caimen0

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3 minutes ago, Caimen0 said:

Blanket statements that any game ought to be replicated exactly with no improvements when long lists of faults can be rattled off at a moment's notice is entirely unhelpful to devs or anyone else who wants to analyze a game to improve their own.

Ofc :) totally agree. Stated that right at beginning of my posts. They were definitely unhelpful. I simply didn't want the extremely unhelpful blanket statement weighted only towards DD1, hence I did what I did. 

I will try to keep reply concise. 

I like exploring in a game, instead of devs telling me what mechanics there are, and what to do best against what, under what scenario. That kills the fun for me. Every bit I learned and discovered, presented tremendous excitement to me, instead of devs spoon feeding me everything with texts in tutorial. Understanding that's a different preference, no point going into deeper. 

Gear upgrading is meaningless indeed, but the grind and hardship lies in shards and mods. I don't think a game needs to have meaningful item down to every single piece picked up. They can merge mods and shards into armors and make much bigger drop pools, it will just end up being exact same results, just different reception. 

Yep, pity timer and reroll protection is a thing, which fixed the drop rate problem. Admittedly shard drop rate was also a problem, also fixed with shard vendor. (listed out in my OG post). They are indeed needed for high onslaught, and the vendor & reroll have tailored the system well enuf so that when players need those items, they already have it from normal progression in order to progress further. 

Pets trash in dd2, agreed. Customization hero, agreed. Hard to farm specific weapons, kinda, since trading exists, so it never takes me more than a day to buy a 5 shots or a 10 shots, when I want one. 

At the end of the day, I want what's best for DDA. just like I stated right at very beginning. If we all wanna be open minded and welcome new ideas and improvement, and merge the best of the best, to create the best, I'm all for it. But if someone wants to go extreme and say DD1's ultimate masterpiece, and copy exactly that and nothing from other games, I don't hesitate at all saying DD2 lives up to the same level if not higher. and so far, if u look into other posts and/or threads, that have come up way too many times. 

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Posted (edited)

All 3 games so far DD1, DDE and DD2 have flaws and I certainly dont feel any of them are perfect.  There are more differences between DD1 and DD2 to me than similarities. I feel this makes it hard for both communities to agree on whats best for DDA and I worry no matter what the devs do both communities will be unhappy. We should be discussing what works and doesnt work in each game even the now defunct DDE and what we feel is the most important elements from each. It might feel to some that mentioning specific flaws with the games to be some sort of betrayal or might seem to others as an attack on their "beloved" game, but we must be willing to be critical and offer suggestions on improvement. We must also acknowledge each game has good aspects as well regardless of which game we prefer.  Looking at each game and coming to an agreement which system actually suits the majority of players - 

Easy to Nightmare VS Campaign to C7

Survival VS Onslaught

Challenges VS Mastery/Incursions

Gear with all stats VS limited stats with shards and mods

Leveling each hero separately VS all heroes having the same level + Ascension

One pool of mana VS Ability and Building Mana

ETC

I had hoped players would take the opportunity to discuss these types of things so we could help shape DDA while it is still in development. We should also remember that although DDA is revisiting DD1 they are planning on making a DD3  later on and what is decided here could also shape what DD3 will be.

Edited by dizzydiana
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I'm looking forward to having an actual digital guide for the new game. That said, having an NPC (like a Guide or NPC-Ranger) in the game who can provide a comprehensive assortment of tips for understanding what the heck is going on—I had to Google so much, watch videos, and ask so many players questions (it was discouraging and exhausting)—would be incredibly kind of the developers. I agree that figuring things out organically can be a rewarding experience, but being left stranded makes the game feel like it has a black hole in it. Also, I don't think it promotes a healthy culture in the community when an elite are in the know of things which should be common knowledge.

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