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SerpaCooper

ACCESS INVENTORY ANYWHERE

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Hi,

I quote from the kickstarter : "ACCESS INVENTORY ANYWHERE:  The power of the Forge is in your pocket!"

I think that is not a good idea, because it's a part of DD1 to have to go back everytime to the forge to build for example.

(sorry i have difficulties to explain more, i'm french)

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We're taking a hard look at all design considerations to make sure DDA plays well. Thanks for your feedback :) 

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Sorry, but i just HATED having to go back to the forge every time i wanted to change heroes. Access inventory - not too big of a deal, and i would be fine with the Forge, but not hero swapping. Having at least 4 heroes (and i want even more) available during builds was the best addition that DD2 brought to the franchise IMO. It drastically reduced the time it took to make builds. I really hope this becomes a standard in all DD games to come. Now accessing inventory - i am very curious to see how this will change as CG moves away from the FTP model, and every single slot in inventory is no longer dependent on the game making $$$ from it. Will inventory space be treated better then? As an example - would shards now stack? Provided that inventory is handled in a way that does not stop me from playing every 3 maps to deal with it, i am not sure if i care if i can access it on the go, or only from the forge. I'd rather be playing the game, not sitting in menus. 

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4 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

Sorry, but i just HATED having to go back to the forge every time i wanted to change heroes. Access inventory - not too big of a deal, and i would be fine with the Forge, but not hero swapping. Having at least 4 heroes (and i want even more) available during builds was the best addition that DD2 brought to the franchise IMO. It drastically reduced the time it took to make builds. I really hope this becomes a standard in all DD games to come. Now accessing inventory - i am very curious to see how this will change as CG moves away from the FTP model, and every single slot in inventory is no longer dependent on the game making $$$ from it. Will inventory space be treated better then? As an example - would shards now stack? Provided that inventory is handled in a way that does not stop me from playing every 3 maps to deal with it, i am not sure if i care if i can access it on the go, or only from the forge. I'd rather be playing the game, not sitting in menus. 

Those quality of life changes in DD2 were great. I always feel it when I go back to play DD1. I know shards are mentioned here in terms of inventory management - does make me wonder how many of those elements may make it into this envisioning of the game. A lot of the elements enabled by the mod/shard system were solid conceptually, if not marred by rng/inventory issues.  

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7 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

Sorry, but i just HATED having to go back to the forge every time i wanted to change heroes. Access inventory - not too big of a deal, and i would be fine with the Forge, but not hero swapping. Having at least 4 heroes (and i want even more) available during builds was the best addition that DD2 brought to the franchise IMO. It drastically reduced the time it took to make builds. I really hope this becomes a standard in all DD games to come. Now accessing inventory - i am very curious to see how this will change as CG moves away from the FTP model, and every single slot in inventory is no longer dependent on the game making $$$ from it. Will inventory space be treated better then? As an example - would shards now stack? Provided that inventory is handled in a way that does not stop me from playing every 3 maps to deal with it, i am not sure if i care if i can access it on the go, or only from the forge. I'd rather be playing the game, not sitting in menus. 

I agree completely.  DD1 had challenge that was there because of the build timer and lack of hero swapping during builds, but realistically not being able to swap during the combat phase is more of a hinderance.  I would love the ability to swap in combat.

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I disagree.  I enjoyed those DD1 mechanics.  It really made you think about character speed and pets/costumes that affected that speed.  Character swapping and item access should be at the forge only and not mid wave at all.

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2 hours ago, russman said:

I disagree.  I enjoyed those DD1 mechanics.  It really made you think about character speed and pets/costumes that affected that speed.  Character swapping and item access should be at the forge only and not mid wave at all.

There are other ways to get players to make meaningful choices about character stats and load outs besides disabling character swapping. Something as draconian as forcing players too leave the gameplay area and return to a hub to deal with gear feels incredibly dated and out place by today's game  standards. 

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13 minutes ago, Captain Alejo said:

Something as draconian as forcing players too leave the gameplay area and return to a hub to deal with gear feels incredibly dated and out place by today's game  standards. 

...Did you ever play DD1? You can change and upgrade gear in map as much as you want within the build timer. You can also bring all 40 of your character slots into any map. The only things that you cannot do in map is respec your hero points, and I can't name a single other game that allows this anyway.

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5 minutes ago, Caimen0 said:

...Did you ever play DD1? You can change and upgrade gear in map as much as you want within the build timer. You can also bring all 40 of your character slots into any map. The only things that you cannot do in map is respec your hero points, and I can't name a single other game that allows this anyway.

I can respec my Paragon points in Diablo on any map. There's one at least and that's a title that has been evolving features since 2014. 

I never said  any of those things were off the table. However,  the suggestion that the game will move in that direction seems incompatible with today's design themes. The idea that you have to return too a hub to fiddle  with character load outs varies heavily based on the type of game and the play loop. That's what is going to be the biggest defining factor in the design choices for this iteration. Freeing players from these kind of restrictions is a tenant I'd like to see focused  on.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Alejo said:

I never said  any of those things were off the table.

But you did.

28 minutes ago, Captain Alejo said:

Something as draconian as forcing players too leave the gameplay area and return to a hub to deal with gear feels incredibly dated and out place by today's game  standards. 

 

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You do have to ponder for a minute why they are basing this off of DD1.  It appears from the news article about the founder buying the rights back that DD1 was a bigger hit than DD2.  That means that many DD1 players (like myself) didn't make the trasition to DD2.  I'm still playing and loving DD1.  The CDT has made some nice QoL improvements since no game is perfect.  So why was DD1 more popular?  I have some ideas but I honestly don't know.  So I think the devs are right to go back to DD1 as a base for this new game.  They will have to decide what changes will be seen as improvements over DD1 and which would be seen by many as breaking changes.  For me, hot swapping mid wave and no forge would be a huge change for the worse.

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Since swapping characters is pretty much making it easier I think this should only be available in games when you have no timer immediate in the building phase, because it doesn't really matter then since you have unlimited time.

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1 minute ago, russman said:

You do have to ponder for a minute why they are basing this off of DD1.  It appears from the news article about the founder buying the rights back that DD1 was a bigger hit than DD2.  That means that many DD1 players (like myself) didn't make the trasition to DD2.  I'm still playing and loving DD1.  The CDT has made some nice QoL improvements since no game is perfect.  So why was DD1 more popular?  I have some ideas but I honestly don't know.  So I think the devs are right to go back to DD1 as a base for this new game.  They will have to decide what changes will be seen as improvements over DD1 and which would be seen by many as breaking changes.  For me, hot swapping mid wave and no forge would be a huge change for the worse.

+1, great explaination

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Posted (edited)

The problem though is that everyone is treating this game as either DD1 or DD2.  This isn't either game.  It's entirely new.  Yes they are basing a lot of things and importing assets from DD1, but to me that seems graphical at best.  Most things are going to have to be remade from scratch in the new engine.  Features that existed in DD1 or DD2 are good to talk about, but saying that it's based off of DD1 isn't really the point.  The point is that they are improving and expanding using an updated engine.

Running back to a specific location in a game just to swap characters isn't something I enjoy in any game.  It's similar to having limited and specific save locations, although that works for some games.  I like freedom, not limitations.  Map timers are great and fine for the challenge.  They can be rebalanced based on the ability to swap heroes on the fly and still provide the same difficulty level.  We're not looking at DD1 balance at all, which honestly had it's own problems.

I for one am glad this is an entirely new game in a new engine that can then start from the ground up and improve upon the limitations and problems that both games had.

Edited by gotrunks712
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Yes, it was a core part of DD1, but it wasn't one of the good parts.  I'm looking forward to this change.

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14 minutes ago, Plane said:

Yes, it was a core part of DD1, but it wasn't one of the good parts.  I'm looking forward to this change.

Mind explaining how it wasn't good? It promoted intelligent build phase 1 pathing, which means that by hotswapping you are removing a layer of skill in the game. It seems to me that removing the forge mecahnics is dumbing the game down in Insane and Nightmare. You no longer have to plan how you are going to move about in a map like Winter Wonderland and can simply reach a choke point, swap through the necessary tower heroes as you place towers, and remove the need to consider how you want to use the build time. At that point you have effectively removed at least 2 or 3 layers of decision making every time you run the map, and for what?

Furthermore, the last time I heard anything about DD2's system, it used a deck of 4 maximum characters. If we apply this to Winter Wonderland in DD1, that means you can use your tower builders and that's it. No upgrader/DPS jester, no DPS monk/Barb/EV for boss. Not only have you removed decision making from the build phase, but you have reduced your in map tower options to EV + monk + app/summ/squire + jester. This actively discourages using inventive tower combinations because you simply can't bring all the characters you want.

 

I'm not seeing the benefit to this system unless you can use your entire hero set, in which case we are back to my first point, the dumbing down of decision making.

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9 minutes ago, Caimen0 said:

Mind explaining how it wasn't good? It promoted intelligent build phase 1 pathing, which means that by hotswapping you are removing a layer of skill in the game. It seems to me that removing the forge mecahnics is dumbing the game down in Insane and Nightmare. You no longer have to plan how you are going to move about in a map like Winter Wonderland and can simply reach a choke point, swap through the necessary tower heroes as you place towers, and remove the need to consider how you want to use the build time. At that point you have effectively removed at least 2 or 3 layers of decision making every time you run the map, and for what?

Furthermore, the last time I heard anything about DD2's system, it used a deck of 4 maximum characters. If we apply this to Winter Wonderland in DD1, that means you can use your tower builders and that's it. No upgrader/DPS jester, no DPS monk/Barb/EV for boss. Not only have you removed decision making from the build phase, but you have reduced your in map tower options to EV + monk + app/summ/squire + jester. This actively discourages using inventive tower combinations because you simply can't bring all the characters you want.

 

I'm not seeing the benefit to this system unless you can use your entire hero set, in which case we are back to my first point, the dumbing down of decision making.

Well said. 

 

38 minutes ago, Plane said:

Yes, it was a core part of DD1, but it wasn't one of the good parts.  I'm looking forward to this change.

It's like tag team wrestling.  You gotta get to your teammate to make the tag.  Part of the fun was trying to make those paths and swaps in time before the timer ran out.  Finally getting diamonds on builders that helped ease the pressure some.  Fun times.

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14 hours ago, Caimen0 said:

Mind explaining how it wasn't good? It promoted intelligent build phase 1 pathing, which means that by hotswapping you are removing a layer of skill in the game. It seems to me that removing the forge mecahnics is dumbing the game down in Insane and Nightmare. You no longer have to plan how you are going to move about in a map like Winter Wonderland and can simply reach a choke point, swap through the necessary tower heroes as you place towers, and remove the need to consider how you want to use the build time. At that point you have effectively removed at least 2 or 3 layers of decision making every time you run the map, and for what?

Furthermore, the last time I heard anything about DD2's system, it used a deck of 4 maximum characters. If we apply this to Winter Wonderland in DD1, that means you can use your tower builders and that's it. No upgrader/DPS jester, no DPS monk/Barb/EV for boss. Not only have you removed decision making from the build phase, but you have reduced your in map tower options to EV + monk + app/summ/squire + jester. This actively discourages using inventive tower combinations because you simply can't bring all the characters you want.

I'm not seeing the benefit to this system unless you can use your entire hero set, in which case we are back to my first point, the dumbing down of decision making.

Let me ask you this.  The difficulty in DD1 was because of a combination of the build timer and the limited hero swapping ability, correct?  You had limited time to do everything in and had to run around quickly both picking up mana and swapping heroes to complete the build in a timely manner.

Is there any less difficulty if you then reduce the build timer and allow for hero swapping so you only have the time to circle the map once?  ON top of that, add in what DD2 did and give you the mana at the build phase.  There's no need to run through the map collecting chests for mana and running back to the forge.  You can get the same difficulty by reducing the time to account for hero swapping. And no, DD2 doesn't limit you to 4 heroes.  It limits you to 4 in the combat phase.  In the build phase you can change up your hero deck with whatever you would like.

Overall, DD1's end game difficulty came from the game mechanics that are dated and artificially inflated build timers.

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Yes, there is less difficulty in just going around plopping down all your towers at once.  You need multiple characters to have certain speed values and you need to remember multiple paths around the map etc.  Also, you start to care about skins (girls were faster than boys, certain skins/pets had speed boosts etc).

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Many good points about having hero swap are made. I played DD1 and DD2 and what kicked me off the most were the overall clunkiness of DD1. It aint good at all. Hero swapping ad fast access are vital to a fluent gameplay. Why waste time running around when you can use this time to actualy plan and build your defense instead and save time. This aint about a challenge, the challenge comes from the timer and the map itself (monster, waves, mutators), it is about saving time for the player so he has more time to actually enjoy the game mechanics of the game! Gobu :Emoji_Goblin::Emoji_GobHuntress::Emoji_Kobalt:

:puhpuh:

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1 hour ago, russman said:

Yes, there is less difficulty in just going around plopping down all your towers at once.  You need multiple characters to have certain speed values and you need to remember multiple paths around the map etc.  Also, you start to care about skins (girls were faster than boys, certain skins/pets had speed boosts etc).

This isn't a skill increase, this isn't more difficulty. This is being locked to play a game differently than how you would want to play it. This doesn't make the game harder unless you only play male heroes and don't use the skins / pets obviously. This isn't something that should come to DDA at all because that is a super trash system. You should be able to build and play freely, being locked to female characters isn't good for the game. 

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