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In Dungeon Defenders 2 we got introduced to Chaos Enemies such as Geodes and Cyborks. As we know these enemies added some challenge to the game but also took away some freedom and fun. I have mixed opinions about these enemies. Will they return in Dungeon Defenders Awakened? Since DDA will be like DD1, i feel like they won't be returning. If so what are your thoughts? 

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I hope not, it made the game feel like a job rather than for enjoyment :p And i enjoy grinding the same shit for hours xD

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I hope they don´t bring them to DDA because i love to Idle Defens with the right Strategie that´s not so easy in DD2 and the Chaos Enemies do it even Harder.

 

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I would like more enemy variety, but personally I don't think hard counters are the answer.  The way that Trendy came back to answer what the community was adding further hard counters to counter the enemies that were already a hard counter to defenses.

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Posted (edited)

I don't mind chaos enemies...in chaos mode. But keep them there IMO. I am not a fan of them appearing in all other modes as well. I miss nightmare enemies. I would not enjoy an "endless" mode in DDA if chaos like enemies constantly spawned. 

And why we are on the subject - same goes with Rollers and Drakenlord. Bosses designed to not allow you to AFK unless you have special builds. I kinda miss being able to make a build that is so good, that i can go make a sandwich. I would like a little more Tower DEF in DDA and a little less forced hero action. 

Edited by Jaws_420
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14 minutes ago, Jaws_420 said:

I don't mind chaos enemies...in chaos mode. But keep them there IMO. I am not a fan of them appearing in all other modes as well. I miss nightmare enemies. I would not enjoy and "endless" mode in DDA if chaos like enemies constantly spawned. 

And why we are on the subject - same goes with Rollers and Drakenlord. Bosses designed to not allow you to AFK unless you have special builds. I kinda miss being able to make a build that is so good, that i can go make a sandwich. I would like a little more Tower DEF in DDA and a little less forced hero action. 

Keeping Chaos type in just a certain mode would be alright. But it would be better if they just kept elemental enemies instead.

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It really depends on the mode, but there's always room for a blend. I don't have a huge problem with Chaos enemies if they are used well. Expeditions tested your builds across a variety of setups which  was nice in a controlled environment. Having those same enemies show up in mixed scheduled throughout onslaught sometimes worked  and sometimes didn't. 

On the other hand, I have a serious problem with things like Steam Rollers which are designed to break up your ability to AFK through maps. It is still sometimes possible, but many elements of DD2 are designed to stop players from being able to do this. That was a critical part of the fun for me in the original - designing something so good you don't have to touch it during the waves. If I can have a mode where this is the focus or achievable, I'll be happy. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/5/2019 at 11:50 AM, Jaws_420 said:

And why we are on the subject - same goes with Rollers and Drakenlord. Bosses designed to not allow you to AFK unless you have special builds. I kinda miss being able to make a build that is so good, that i can go make a sandwich. I would like a little more Tower DEF in DDA and a little less forced hero action. 

This!! I know Dungeon Defenders is obviously meant to be a hybrid Tower Defense / RPG , but one of the things that makes Tower Defense games fun is the down-time where you can inspect the effectiveness (or lack thereof...) of your build, which can only really be done if it's holding up without copious amounts of DPS-character support.

There were a number of things that turned me off in DD2, but what is being discussed here was certainly a large contributor -- At least when I was still playing, it felt like you needed a DPS character in every lane possible, constantly repairing / clearing groups, but it wasn't hectic in a fun way -- it just felt tedious / stressful (in my opinion). DD1 felt like a Tower Defense game w/ support from Upgraders / DPS Heroes, while DD2 felt like the Towers were only there to support your DPS Heroes, and the towers never truly felt powerful / overly impactful (In DD2's defense, I haven't played in a very long time, so I'm sure balance changes have helped alleviate this since then).

Edited by g_cracka88
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It depends on what type of player you are. You can still AFK chaos enemies and you dont need special defences. You just got to use a different strat.

C1 use auras.

C2 use projectiles

C3 use auras

C4 use projectiles

C5-7 use auras.

 

Thats pretty much it. Chaos enemies didnt really change the game that much and these hard counters are easily countered back. 

 

As for enemies like frostlord and roller. Again easy to do and is a request from the commuinty because people didnt want a AFK snooze fest.

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6 minutes ago, Martin Arcainess said:

As for enemies like frostlord and roller. Again easy to do and is a request from the commuinty because people didnt want a AFK snooze fest.

Agreed, if I want an afk snoozefest I can go play an incremental or clicker game

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1 hour ago, g_cracka88 said:

DD1 felt like a Tower Defense game w/ support from Upgraders / DPS Heroes, while DD2 felt like the Towers were only there to support your DPS Heroes

Well said. I feel that way as well. I did like in DD1, apart from bosses, you could just work the layout. Watch the action and assess. In DD2, the action is a little more in your face and you always gotta have one eye on the screen. 

I think a key between both games is that we should be able to have both. The game can have modes more action oriented, like Onslaught. Or it could be more TD, like through Nightmare Endless. Every mode should not feel the same IMO. 

Why not cherry pick the best of both games and maybe EVERYONE can have what they want, in some manner or part. Mass grinders, leaderboraders, afk'ers, carriers, TD, PvP, Collectors, newbs, etc. This should be a brainstorm in the forums of things to add, and not any arguments about whose side or version is better. Gimmie one solid game mode to crack out on, in my way - and i will love a game forever. 

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2 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

Well said. I feel that way as well. I did like in DD1, apart from bosses, you could just work the layout. Watch the action and assess. In DD2, the action is a little more in your face and you always gotta have one eye on the screen. 

I think a key between both games is that we should be able to have both. The game can have modes more action oriented, like Onslaught. Or it could be more TD, like through Nightmare Endless. Every mode should not feel the same IMO. 

Why not cherry pick the best of both games and maybe EVERYONE can have what they want, in some manner or part. Mass grinders, leaderboraders, afk'ers, carriers, TD, PvP, Collectors, newbs, etc. This should be a brainstorm in the forums of things to add, and not any arguments about whose side or version is better. Gimmie one solid game mode to crack out on, in my way - and i will love a game forever. 

I think that be great for DDA people want different game modes but also people want and dont want certain things.  Ill make a new thread after I gathered some more data.

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I'm right there with ya Jaws! Different game modes that can please fans of both games depending on what they're looking for would be a big win -- let the player play how they want to play! =) (if that is possible to be within the coding scope based on workload / schedule any way).

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On 3/7/2019 at 10:34 PM, Jaws_420 said:

Why not cherry pick the best of both games and maybe EVERYONE can have what they want, in some manner or part. Mass grinders, leaderboraders, afk'ers, carriers, TD, PvP, Collectors, newbs, etc. 

3

I think the core challenge here will be making that much variety rewarding. I want so badly to have a wide range of experiences, but I really hope I am not pinned into one mode simply because it is significantly superior in terms of rewards. I really want to be able to hop around different kinds of experiences and not feel punished in terms of progression for doing so. 

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Posted (edited)

I would have to agree with most too! I personally wouldn't want Chaos in DDA due to having a mega-dose of them in DD2. But if there are a variety of gamemodes, I'm totally fine with it. That's what I like about pre-trials DD2. The variety of gamemodes and it's variety of its loot table.

I definitely won't miss the drakenlord not being in DDA. I'm ok with siege roller. But not having any hard counters would be ideal. If it returns, maybe it can be an actual tank instead where it has two phases, where once you blow the front roller off and it becomes a glass cannon? (The back engine becomes a booster)

 

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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Im a little on the fence about chaos enemies in DDA. I felt their presence was mostly to enforce players to have multiple builders soley. In DD1 nightmare basically did the same thing you could not easily complete any nightmare map with just a squire slightly more possible with apprentice but still you would want different heroes for the enemies you were now facing. The problem for me with the current DD2 is this idea was basically thrown out with the inclusion of MODS which means you can make one hero like the EV2 or Dryad viable throughout all tiers of chaos. That leads me to think hard counters would be a bad idea for DDA. Enemies like sharken and spiders did make you rethink your builds but somehow still left for more variety in approaches than Cyborks. Dark assassins and the like are just annoying not challenging. They feel more of a nuissance than anything else. I liked the idea behind chaos enemies making sure you would need multiple approaches to the same maps but after some time the way it was implemented feels more tedious and with mods becomes to some degree irrelevant.

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The Chaos enemies were far less annoying than the Nightmare Lost Shards enemies from the first game. Sharkens, Spiders, Djinns, and Copter Ogres just flat-out broke every rule of defense building and served as hard counters for everything except Summoner minions.

 

Sharkens messed up EVERY blockade. Except minions.

Spiders messed up any non-360-degree defense. So minions, auras, and traps were the only solutions, and the spiders could drop from anywhere.

Djinns desummoned everything. Except minions.

Copters flew over everything and dropped massive stat-check minibosses directly on the crystal/objective. Anyone remember when Trendy was forced to nerf them to keep the flight cap ogres from being able to damage the crystal/objective?

 

Cyborks are a massive PitA, but I'll still deal with them any day over the BS enemies I just listed.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Kobalobasileus said:

The Chaos enemies were far less annoying than the Nightmare Lost Shards enemies from the first game. Sharkens, Spiders, Djinns, and Copter Ogres just flat-out broke every rule of defense building and served as hard counters for everything except Summoner minions.

 

Sharkens messed up EVERY blockade. Except minions.

Spiders messed up any non-360-degree defense. So minions, auras, and traps were the only solutions, and the spiders could drop from anywhere.

Djinns desummoned everything. Except minions.

Copters flew over everything and dropped massive stat-check minibosses directly on the crystal/objective. Anyone remember when Trendy was forced to nerf them to keep the flight cap ogres from being able to damage the crystal/objective?

 

Cyborks are a massive PitA, but I'll still deal with them any day over the BS enemies I just listed.

Why have either then? Id like CG to differentiate between hard and annoying. I'm fine with more difficult units, but annoying ones drive me nuts. My biggest issue with many DD2 units was that they forced your hand in layouts. What is the point if having so many defenses, if the enemy schedule pretty much mandates what defs you need to use? Creativity in builds is one of the things i most enjoy in a TD game. Singular layouts cause burnout soooooooo much faster IMO. 

Edited by Jaws_420
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jaws_420 said:

Why have either then? Id like CG to differentiate between hard and annoying. I'm fine with more difficult units, but annoying ones drive me nuts. My biggest issue with many DD2 units was that they forced your hand in layouts. What is the point if having so many defenses, if the enemy schedule pretty much mandates what defs you need to use? Creativity in builds is one of the things i most enjoy in a TD game. Singular layouts cause burnout soooooooo much faster IMO. 

I would have to agree with this big time. While in DD2 there isn't an ultimate meta like the PDT-Serenity Aura beast setup (on the other hand, SR WMs probably is one) and other builds are sorta more viable too. I would really love to experience being able to mess around with the variety of defenses while also having a challenge both in DDA & DD2. *cough need Nightmare/Annihilation cough*

While the frost enemies & drakenlord aren't chaos enemies, they still are a pain and still require fire damage or you might be having a hard time which still does force you to use certain defenses, instead of my favorite setup or some experiments for fun. And Ooh boy, I have no idea that DD1 enemies were sorta hard counters too. 

Anyway, if DDA were to have hard counter, not that they shouldn't be in the game BUT I do hope they don't mash them into all of the gamemodes. That's what happened with DD2 which is why I'm craving nightmare and beyond now. 

Edited by Paloverde zfogshooterz
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10 hours ago, Kobalobasileus said:

The Chaos enemies were far less annoying than the Nightmare Lost Shards enemies from the first game. Sharkens, Spiders, Djinns, and Copter Ogres just flat-out broke every rule of defense building and served as hard counters for everything except Summoner minions.

 

Sharkens messed up EVERY blockade. Except minions.

Spiders messed up any non-360-degree defense. So minions, auras, and traps were the only solutions, and the spiders could drop from anywhere.

Djinns desummoned everything. Except minions.

Copters flew over everything and dropped massive stat-check minibosses directly on the crystal/objective. Anyone remember when Trendy was forced to nerf them to keep the flight cap ogres from being able to damage the crystal/objective?

Except for the part where all the shard enemies are actually insanely easy to deal with.

Build in chokes like you should be doing and Sharkens/Djinns might as well not even exist. And if you really want to build in some weird spot then gas traps stop them (although your defenses should be easily killing them anyway).

Spiders have set spawn points. You can deal with them with any defense once you learn where those are. And if you're building "normally" then you'll generally have aura stacks over their spawns anyway so it's something you don't even have to think about unless you're trying something odd. 

Copters are a joke on most maps. You can deal with them using anything as long as you know where they're coming from. In a bunch of cases you can stop them even getting ogres onto the map.

None of these mobs are even close to being "hard counters" to anything. There's optimal ways for dealing with them (as is the case with everything) but you can technically use whatever the hell you want. 

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Personally I am fine with enemy variety if it encourages a variety of build options and doesn't force you to use a select few.  Last I played DD1 end game was right around when DD2 came out in Purchase Early Access.  At that point, you essentially had to use traps, auras, EV beams, and Minions or you weren't doing it right.  It doesn't matter if they can be dealt with in other ways.  When the most efficient way to deal with literally everything in the game on a standard map is one build, it's a joke.  There are two sides of this and that is the balance of defenses and the number of available enemy types to spawn on a map.

Make all defenses viable in different situations

  • There shouldn't be only one counter to any enemy type.
  • There needs to be options and let the player choose.  I believe the DD1 community group did well at balancing the game to encourage this after I stopped playing.

Encourage player build variability

  • Randomize enemy spawns, but be consistent with one instance of a playthrough.  I feel like DD2 does pretty well at this in Onslaught by randomizing lanes and modifiers, you have to adapt to the lane and build.
  • I would prefer to see BOTH chaos enemies from DD2 and nightmare enemies from DD1 in the game.  Make them less hard counters though.  This would encourage more diversity in builds.
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11 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

I would prefer to see BOTH chaos enemies from DD2 and nightmare enemies from DD1 in the game.  Make them less hard counters though.

I can't really see how the hard counters in chaos can be made "less hard counters" without entirely redesigning them into new enemies with new abilities, at which point they're not really chaos enemies anymore.

And honestly I think chaos enemies in general (even the non hard counters) being a good idea entirely depends on the mechanics and defenses DDA will have. For example adding lady orcs/chaos assassins if there's no slow/CC will just make the game a miserable experience. 

11 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

I feel like DD2 does pretty well at this in Onslaught by randomizing lanes and modifiers, you have to adapt to the lane and build.

Well, as I said in another thread the reality of mutators is that they actually hinder build variety. Granted, they shove a couple of extra defenses into the "meta" of the game by making them almost mandatory on certain lanes but they also massively limit how you can build and actively discourage use of the majority of defenses. At the end of the day you still end up using basically the same handful of defenses over and over only with mutators active you have no choice over it. 

12 hours ago, gotrunks712 said:

There are two sides of this and that is the balance of defenses and the number of available enemy types to spawn on a map.

There's also map design, which is often overlooked. If the overall goal is to encourage building differently on different maps then maps can be designed in ways to promote that without forcing it. 

The Bowling Ball Turret in DD1 is a good example of how map design affects defenses. It's a bit of an unorthodox tower with the potential to be extremely powerful in certain places, but there's so little useful positions for it that it's just forgotten about.

There's a whole lot of potential for breaking up the meta and implementing fun, wacky towers and making them useful with map design. I hope it's something we see utilized.

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Problem with chaos enemies were they were either meaningful enough werr you did your full build around them or you didnt care and they were anothsr enemy. Shield goblins forced me into using flame auras. Cyborks just meant my flame auras had yo kill them first. Geodes, berserkers, assassins, and hex throwers didnt effect my flame aura builds. So of the 7 chaos enemy only 1 effected me because it made me change but when 1 tower defeats all 7 chaos enemies we have a problem.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2019 at 7:48 AM, vosh said:

Problem with chaos enemies were they were either meaningful enough werr you did your full build around them or you didnt care and they were anothsr enemy. Shield goblins forced me into using flame auras. Cyborks just meant my flame auras had yo kill them first. Geodes, berserkers, assassins, and hex throwers didnt effect my flame aura builds. So of the 7 chaos enemy only 1 effected me because it made me change but when 1 tower defeats all 7 chaos enemies we have a problem.

I don't think it's ever fair to discuss enemy effecting your build, when you are afking low difficulty. There's not a single type of enemy, that can effect my build, if I'm just doing expedition afk content. 

For me at least, Cybork makes me use tenacity-specific or no aura/trap defense; Geodes makes me use piercer; berserkers makes me have a anti-chaos, anti-melee, anti-orc, single target defense; hex throwers make me place reflect in front of sub/core; assassin make me use barb to turtle stance to avoid getting one-shotted (altho I don't like this... being forced to one specific hero). Mob type and mutator type always effect my build, cuz if I ever try to use one build for all, I get overwhelmed within seconds. 

I agree, there're a few mob types and mutation that doesn't do much, but still shouldn't take away how well they've diversed the game-play

Edited by hailminion

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Not a fan of chaos or mastery. Limits your creative ability to build in my opinion. you have to use certain heroes to accomplish the missions. NO thank you!

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