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Max resource amounts in mastery


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I've noticed something odd while playing chaos 1 masteries.  My mystic suddenly has 200 max appeasement even though normally she only has 100 (ascension talent not allocated).  Meanwhile my gunwitch only gets 100 max broom power in place of her normal 200 (ascension talent allocated).  Could this be some weird effect of level sync or what's going on here?

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Very well could be a bug.  As I'm sure you're aware, Mastery caps your player/weapon/tower stats at each tier.  Perhaps the Mystic is missing a bit of code.


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Yeah, I've noticed it says "whatever, the other thing and ascension capped" in the lower right corner of the screen when playing mastery.  This is probably somehow related to that.  Gunwitch losing max resource could be explained by the ascension cap deciding to remove all of my points in that particular talent, although IMO it's a bit unfair that I don't get to decide what's important for me.  More difficult to explain is how mystic gained max resource.  Does the game have some ascension presets which are applied during mastery, completely overriding player choices?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is there any information on how ascension capping in mastery works?  I'm getting a distinct feeling that it's removed entirely.  My heroes have no ability resource (missing ability mana talent), my defenses are slow (missing defense speed talent) and have tiny range (missing range gambits).  I expected C4 masteries to feel similar to what normal C4 maps did when I was progressing through them, but they're much more difficult.  When I was on C4 with appropriate gear I could mostly let my defenses do their thing and only had to occasionally deal with tougher enemies.  Now my defenses are getting hardly anything killed and I have to dart this way and that to kill enemies myself.  Only it isn't working out because I can't be everywhere at once.

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@tdb quote:

I expected C4 masteries to feel similar to what normal C4 maps did when I was progressing through them, but they're much more difficult. 

Mastery maps should feel nothing like the Expedition versions of the maps. No caps in Expedition mode, and everything is capped in Mastery. The lower the tier you play, the more that is capped. Playing it in Mastery should feel more like it did the first time you got to C4. You will have to adjust layouts accordingly since you cannot rely on metas. Also note - not only is power/speed/range all capped - but so are % chance at activation/hit. So on low Chaos levels, like C1 - things like WM can almost be useless because they hit so infrequently. 

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@Jaws_420 quote: 

Playing it in Mastery should feel more like it did the first time you got to C4. 

That's what I expected, yes.  But it feels at least twice as difficult.  Progressing through C1-C4 was a breeze with whatever gear I happened to find.  I didn't have to stop and optimize things.  But now the C4 masteries feel even harder than what C4 expeditions were with C3 gear.

I'll have to go and get some actual C3 gear (since I already sold everything from my C3 shard farming) to see how hard the same maps are with those and how do my defense stats compare.

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I went out and got some C2 10/10 gear.  Just some random items I found in three runs, no effort spent on optimization.  I figured the lower chaos tier would offset the fact that I can't easily remove my ascension points.  I then went to Forgotten Ruins on a C4 expedition and compared that to the C4 mastery with my normal but synced gear.  The experience was similar; my hero felt a little weaker but defenses a little stronger.  On the expedition map I had to retry the last wave once.  On mastery I had to restart three times because of reasons ranging from enemies leaking past blockades to bad miniboss RNG.

I also collected some numbers.  Stats with C2 10/10 gear:

Medallion primary 7k-7.5k
Gunwith hero rating 1121
Orc Blockade 1.56M health
Ballista 199k damage / 1.28s, 6300 range
Explosive Trap 59.3k damage / 1.63s, 483 range
Flamethrower 36.5k damage / 0.35s, 1845 range
Lightning Strikes Aura 129k damage / 2.6s, 1192 range

Stats synced to C4 in mastery:

Medallion primary 12k-13k
Gunwitch hero rating 1929
Orc Blockade 2.08M health
Ballista 369k damage / 2.68s, 4200 range
Explosive Trap 116k damage / 2.5s,  396 range
Flamethrower 64k damage / 1s, 1500 range
Lightning Strikes Aura 216k damage / 2.84s, 1000 range

The hero rating difference explains why my hero felt weaker.  However because I had more max ability mana, I was better able to deal burst damage by firing off several abilities in quick succession.  Note that my normal relic for LSA has a defense rate servo, thus it has almost the same attack rate because the servo compensates for losing the talent.

It is immediately evident that at least the defense speed talent and the defense range gambits are capped to zero.  Doing some math shows that defense power talents are also capped to zero.  As previously noted, ability mana talents are capped to zero.

It is also interesting to note that the defense speed talent has a much bigger impact than advertised.  It claims to increase defense attack rate by 33% but the actual effect ranges from 53% on explosive trap to 186% on flamethrower.  Other sources of defense attack rate behave similarly.

So the question is, how is ascension capping in masteries supposed to work?  Is removing ascension entirely intentional?  That doesn't really match the "should feel the same as when you first entered that tier" logic, since players are bound to have at least a few ascension levels by the time they enter C4.  The exact amount would vary depending on how much time was spent farming on lower tiers.

On the other hand, none of the ways I can come up with for capping ascension talents to non-zero values are without issues.  I would love to hear Trendy's take on this.  If capping to zero is intentional, I suggest changing the in-game text to more clearly indicate that ascension is disabled entirely.

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@tdb quote:

Is removing ascension entirely intentional?  

I would believe so. Part of the whole point of the mode IMO. Show you know how to play the game, not just have inflated stats. 


@tdb quote:

That doesn't really match the "should feel the same as when you first entered that tier" logic, since players are bound to have at least a few ascension levels by the time they enter C4.  

Those were my word, not TE's, so take it with a grain of salt. Just my view on how the capping was meant to feel like, but not a rule on how Mastery works. I may have said it wrong. I think the main key is that you are not supposed to be able to go out and grind your way to make Mastery suddenly easy. The caps ensure a certain difficulty level - for everyone. 


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Yeah, I can understand that having +20k defense power from ascension would break masteries, especially on low chaos tiers.  On the other hand maxing out defense speed only takes ascension level 59 and it seems to more than double the dps, so it's kinda harsh to miss out on that in high chaos tiers.  Range gambits too, because high range enables some things that are just not otherwise possible.

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@tdb quote:

Yeah, I can understand that having +20k defense power from ascension would break masteries, especially on low chaos tiers.  On the other hand maxing out defense speed only takes ascension level 59 and it seems to more than double the dps, so it's kinda harsh to miss out on that in high chaos tiers.  Range gambits too, because high range enables some things that are just not otherwise possible.

TBH i did not feel that most of the caps were too punitive. The only thing that i really thought was not very fair was how the % chances were capped. That really bothered me. On C1-C4 many defs i normally used in my builds were not very useful with such low % chance of activation of hitting. Crowd control is almost non-existent. 

I found Mastery easier as you went up tiers, so C7 was the easiest as the %'s finally back to normal, and most things were at full strength. C1, C2, and C5 gave me the most trouble. Unfortunately i started with C1 when i first did Mastery, which made it feel so tough...i should have started with C7. It is kind of counter-intuitive if you ask me. C7 should be the hardest... 

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I started from C1 and found them pretty easy.  I even completed a map which requires you to not build more than one of the same kind of defense and complete each build phase in under 30 seconds (I forget which one that was).  I pretty much just slapped down barricades for the first wave and killed the enemies using my hero, adding more defenses in successive waves as I was able to swap in new builders with every build phase.

Then comes C4 and I pick something I figure shouldn't be too difficult.  First try was Unholy Catacombs: no nodes, no barricades, 10 different defenses.  But I can spend all the time I want placing the defenses, can upgrade, repair etc.  The enemies proceed to walk through everything and threaten the core.  By frantically killing things with my hero I manage to clear a few waves, but as soon as there's a boss that really requires my attention I'm toast.

I try Crumbled Bulwark next: 10 different defenses, no upgrades, finish combat in under three minutes.  It's even worse than the last one, even though the no upgrades part shouldn't really affect the first wave.  My barricades just melt under the enemies.

Forgotten Ruins requires 10 different defenses, no sold or destroyed defenses and cores above 90% at all times.  So it can be played almost like normal; I only needed to make minor alterations to introduce more defense types.  Replace orc blockades with spike blockades here, use flame aura instead of flamethrower there, and toss in an extra snaking sands for good measure.  Still it was significantly more difficult than normal; as noted it felt like I was playing with C2 gear.

I guess maybe I should use more CC?  Clearly there has to be some trick to killing enemies without needing blockades, since some masteries require that.  At least on C4 I don't need to spend DU on assassin-killing stations yet.  I shudder to think what C5 masteries will be like, since that was the first (and only) chaos tier where I had trouble when initially getting into it.  Or I may just get the first two hyper shards and leave it at that, since those seem to be the most significant ones.

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