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MrPeterPFL

Possible Nerf to Shocking Revelation and Water Servo?

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For people who don't know this combo, it's the Weapon Manufacture with the "Shocking Revelation" Mod + "Water Servo" Mod. These two together create a elemental combo that shock any enemies when they step on any node.  

I personally think it's too good. This set alone has taken me to Chaos 1-7 resets and many floors on Onslaught. 

What's your thoughts?

Edit: 

I am not asking to Nerf the damage on the Weapon Manufacture.

Shock and Water is a powerful combo compared to other elemental combos e.g. Oil and Fire = Ignite, this needs looking into as it provides a good long stun. This combo works extremely well with Weapon Manufacture as it provides and area effect damage + area effect stun.     

   

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Shocking Revelation has already had a nerf when it first got introduced. While adding the water mod gives it the shock combo, and while it is pretty strong, it's not the "best and only" defense in my opinion. Other defenses should be boosted instead.

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I do not agree. 

Maybee WM has a lot of power on lower tears (same for Fa, lsa, cannon, etc etc etc) , from floor 80 especially [[316,users]] waves u need to get your main power somewhere else. 

Don't understand people asking for more nervs. Some time ago dryard was too powerful for some players. Than bees gotta (buggy) nerv after slim was nerved... so their defenses aren't useful atm :(

Boosting other defenses it would prefer

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@Hijumper885 quote:

Shocking Revelation has already had a nerf when it first got introduced. While adding the water mod gives it the shock combo, and while it is pretty strong, it's not the "best and only" defense in my opinion. Other defenses should be boosted instead.

I think they’re trying to introduce more elemental combos like Fire and Posion, I wonder how that would do 

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when you play high floors on onslaught they wont be useful as often as you think.

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@werox3 quote:

when you play high floors on onslaught they wont be useful as often as you think.

Yes it's just a convenient defense to add stuns to allow your DPS defenses some time to kill. 

The WM itself has pretty bad DPS being configured with water, tenacity and SR you lose all the damage boosting MODS and it does trigger DR quicker as it has two sources of stuns. 

You can build it for big range again at the expense of DPS  -  if you don't have tenacity, but in high onslaught something is going to freeze or stun it and you can kiss that lane goodbye.


You can achieve stun combos elsewhere it's just more resource intensive as you need two defenses instead of one in a lane to do the same job as WM.


Also best usage comes from it having 10 tenacity and upgraded to C8 and probably a gilded defense rate shard, all things that require time and effort and will likely annoy the remaining player base if you start ruining our top end gear rather than improving gameplay, AP or other defense combos.

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Nerf WM? Are you kidding me? already enough the Dryad nerf, that turned it into a useless personage. another thing, WM does not take any damage from the floor 200, enemies dance over the manufacture and do not die. Currently there are few defenses that are worth just being used. I stopped playing the game a long time ago. cultivating 250 cluster to have a defense at most caused me to stop playing.

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If we are just talking about crowd control - this is exactly why Diminishing Returns was introduced....that was the nerf. If going for CC, you don't have that much power, and if going for power, you lose a lot of CC ability. 

And there is always the - if it is so good, that you do not like it...use something else then. You don't need to use it. It was the same thing when Hornets were gods of resets. Nothing but Dryad for maps and maps and maps. If you burn out on it, go with another setup. Or, break out of the reset loop and do something else. Anything else. I hear you on the issue though - efficiency matters so much on resets. 

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@ColobelSpike82 quote:

I do not agree. 

. . . 

Boosting other defenses it would prefer

This. There are a number of unusable or subpar defenses.  Lets fix these before looking for something to nerf.  

I recognize that weapon man is perhaps the most useful defense right now. But Instead of destroying one of our best options, let’s make the competition better. Let’s focus on making water geyser a better source of drenching  instead of making weapon man a worse source of drenching.  I would love to see another, cheaper way to stun (or otherwise corral) berserkers.  But please don’t take this one away.  

I personally do not like the weapon manufacturer. I don’t like piling 90 or 120 DU into a single defense. I don’t like how it looks. I don’t like placing the damn thing. I just plain don’t like it. But the game is noticeably harder without using it.  

We need more viable options, not less. 

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@SELL SW0RD quote:

This. There are a number of unusable or subpar defenses.  Lets fix these before looking for something to nerf.  

I recognize that weapon man is perhaps the most useful defense right now. But Instead of destroying one of our best options, let’s make the competition better. Let’s focus on making water geyser a better source of drenching  instead of making weapon man a worse source of drenching.  I would love to see another, cheaper way to stun (or otherwise corral) berserkers.  But please don’t take this one away.  

I personally do not like the weapon manufacturer. I don’t like piling 90 or 120 DU into a single defense. I don’t like how it looks. I don’t like placing the damn thing. I just plain don’t like it. But the game is noticeably harder without using it.  

We need more viable options, not less. 

Right?! When has like Harpy or Training Dummy ever been a real cornerstone def that everyone wanted to use? I have every def in the game built up for use, and soooo many just sit on the sidelines. Why use them if a WM and a few FAs and LSAs can do the job, and build time is like 1/10th - especially when we cannot reorg the hero list order, so finding that one hero you want (at least on PS4) is cumbersome and slow. I'd love a reason to want, heck even need - to use a buff beam. Plus DU amounts are sometimes so razor thin, there is not much room for extras. 

Then there is the grind....after doing 20 resets, and you are just on #21, why get fancy with builds? You want the quickest way possible to end the map, with the fewest defs used as possible. A recipe for total burn-out, especially if playing the same map, to farm mats, over and over again. When all of your relics get reset on each cycle, why build up anything you do not have to? Fun = more time until next reset....which =/= fun. 

That is what drains me faster than anything in DD - playing the same map over and over again. Same map, same def, same locations, same same same same AAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! 

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I would love a Training Dummy rework. I've been using it since it only costs 20 DU now, and it's...okay. I would like Trendy to re-release the shard the teleported enemies back to the spawn point...though it was pretty buggy.


But yes, Harpy and Buff Beam, and others really need some more love.

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@SELL SW0RD quote: 

I personally do not like the weapon manufacturer. I don’t like piling 90 or 120 DU into a single defense. I don’t like how it looks. I don’t like placing the damn thing. I just plain don’t like it. But the game is noticeably harder without using it.  

We need more viable options, not less. 

Now this is my opinion but I don't use the 3 wm per set. I just place the one and thats it. WM isn't a defence I use for damage but CC along with Protean Beam.  My protean Beam has the water mod.


For dps I use other towers and in onslaught if the lane is anti magic or got cyborks I use other towers instead.

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@Little Magic Hat quote:

Mark has already said they're not nerfing it anymore. Diminishing Returns was already the biggest nerf to affect it without going OTT.

Source? I highly doubt any dev would ever back themselves into a corner like this.


Personally, I had some internet issues keeping me from streaming and giving me a lot of solo time. This time is usually spent very lazy since I don't have to worry about someone else's time being wasted as I don't hit G for 5 mins. With these few days I decided to look into DR/Stuns/SR and really get a good idea of how all this works and why people are on one side of the fence or the other.

First, I have been using Storm damage on my weapon looooong before DR was put in with a Drenching Strikes shard on my Huntress. This I called the Stuntress, bounced between shock stun and Concussive Shots as a way to perma lock a boss. The reason I used Concussive Shots was because back before DR shock stun had a natural cooldown before they could be shock stunned again so I had to fill that gap with another stun. Since DR, this cooldown has been removed which allows me to spam shots and perma lock them without Concussive Shots. This new perma stun seems to be mainly because with a Gilded Drenching Strikes (38% chance) and Storm damage (100%) on 6 arrows 4 times a second, it is unlikely that there will be a second where I don't get both to trigger.

Second, looking at DR I noticed it didn't matter if I fired one shot waited for the stun to wear off and fired again, repeating until DR was making it so I had to fire a lot to keep them stunned versus just start off spamming at full rate and holding them. It seems no matter which way you go they still have to live out the total stun duration. It also appears that DR applies as a stack, in which one stun is one stack and as you stun more you build up to max. Trendy has said that if left alone enemies become vulnerable again, I believe this applies to the life span of the stack. As stack one grows old it wears off allowing you to apply to the top stack bringing you back to max and having the oldest stack wear off thus repeating the cycle until the target dies.

Third, I looked at stuns together and how they interact with another. During my testing I was using Snaking Sands (SS) which have a stun. With these I managed to catch a boss with a shock stun right before SS hit him with a stun but I never saw any animation for that stun while he was shocked. I hypothesize that stun timers run concurrently from different types of stuns. From what I could see we have 3, Normal Stun, Shock Stun, and Freeze Stun. Normal would be something like SS and SR, Shock would be the Elemental Combo, and Freeze would be something like Proton's freeze shard or Frostbite Towers freeze shard. Ice Chip as we all have noticed by now does not fall into these categories as it can freeze headstrong enemies I don't believe it is even categorized as a stun at all.

Lastly, looking towards WM and SR I combined these finds. SR alone seems to be doing what it is supposed to and builds DR as normal, eventually letting enemies walk through more and more, thus balanced. What I think is going on here is derived from the Elemental Combo that SR has allowed on one defense. The Drench from Water Servo/Chip is 100%, far above an beyond any single Drench source in the game, and Storm is also 100% application. We also know from this that enemies have to live out the total stun duration applied to them so WM hits every 0.38 seconds with 3 nodes or just shy of 9 times a second, or 9 shock stuns a second. Now I can't tell how many stacks we build up to at max nor what the rate of diminish is but I can bet that this allows WM to build quite a bit of stun and hold it very well on enemies.

FInal note, do I think WM should be nerfed? No, but I do think there is something here that needs to be looked at. I have talked to a great deal of trusted people I know will debate respectfully with me rather than shout back and forth before I mentioned any of this. From talks with them we have thought of a few things to NOT choose but take into mind as I doubt Trendy will sit idle forever and may make moves on their own with or without us.

  • Make Shocking Revelations -> Stunning Revelations by removing the Storm damage and forcing the use of another defense.
  • Make DR more traditional by making each stun have less chance to apply rather than less duration.
  • Change Water Servo/Chip have a chance to Drench based on quality of mod (% to be determined but keeping in mind that it can be on every defense around the map rather than on a single hero in one place at a time)
  • Replace the inherent cooldown between Shock stuns requiring the use of another classification of stun to fill the gap.

tl;dr - Go read the post lazy person, it is full of information and we should all be striving to learn everything about the game to be better players.

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Hrm... now I really want to move my water mod to my proton beams so I can allow a second set of DR to occur a little way so apart from the weapon mans!  I am wasting my DR. 

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Apologies, I added my own interpretation. A comment on the stream was "Mark is nerfing Weapon Manufacturer" Mark responded "I'm really not". Friday Fun 11/1/19 that you were in.

@Exglint quote:
@Little Magic Hat quote:

Mark has already said they're not nerfing it anymore. Diminishing Returns was already the biggest nerf to affect it without going OTT.

Source? I highly doubt any dev would ever back themselves into a corner like this.


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@Little Magic Hat quote:
@Exglint quote:
@Little Magic Hat quote:

Mark has already said they're not nerfing it anymore. Diminishing Returns was already the biggest nerf to affect it without going OTT.

Source? I highly doubt any dev would ever back themselves into a corner like this.

Apologies, I added my own interpretation. A comment on the stream was "Mark is nerfing Weapon Manufacturer" Mark responded "I'm really not". Friday Fun 11/1/19 that you were in.

Ah I remember that. Yea it was rather open to interpretation, I take it as word play, Lawlta is always doing the "It wasnt a nerf it was a fix/change" Since under technicality they dont classify things like that as nerfs. Who knows what was really meant by that, but we will see what happens in the future and go from there :)

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I myself am not a huge fan of the combo, even though I use it myself. It does have it's fair share of weaknesses:

  • If you don't have support defenses near it, it overloads after 10 enemies. Any enemies after that walk in it without damage and this is a problem if its a Cyber Orc or a Frost Orc and you lack Tenacity on the former.
  • It has less effect on Headstrong enemies as you can only damage them. Headstrong and CB can still be damaged by them as the Water damage causes Drench.
  • You cannot upgrade it. Of all the auras, it has one of the lowest DPS outputs compared to Auras.
  • Diminishing Returns eventually fully kicks in. Bosses and even Snooki are more likely to escape the nodes if you don't spread them out effectively.

I think what really allows me is there is a case going around for having Headstrong removed because "muh Headstrong DAs" are too hard and I even had one of my friends complain that people who got to F600 have to reroll maps just to avoid Headstrong not only for air but even for ground forces. I brushed it off as he has c;limbed to ~AP20 via just a Earthshatter, Wpn Manu and 2 Gunwitches (who have one of the worst Hero Health multipliers of the set). I am able to do it with PDTs and Cannonballs while scavenging for a few others just fine. 

The excuse of muh "CC is in integral element in this game" is crap as the saying "adapt and perish" also applies. Headstrong might be awful, but there are ways around it, even if Assassins have it.

I also find they largely because they either rely on Weapon Manufacturers with that setup to permastun or forget that you can still Slow them with Proton Beams or Frostbite Towers. Just make sure they have 10/10 Tenacity so Cyber Orcs and Kobolts don't off them. Otherwise you will have to use Blockades and overwhelming force. 

If you guys want to reduce the Permastun lockage, there are a few things that can be done:

  • Buff damage of other sources so that the Wpn Manu is basically a 60 DU stunfield for your other offense
  • Make it so the Shocking portion does a full damage conversion to Storm so that Water cannot be applied. Have another tower like a fast attacking Ramster have the Water Servo to mass-drench or bring back the Water Elemental Shard (adds damage + chance to drench)
  • You can remove the Storm effect and just have it stun by chance but do extra Magic damage or something
  • Water Servos should drench by chance 
  • Buff the Mega Death Laser and Atomic Launcher on the device so it's actual purpose can be used for greater effect.


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