Drakenkeep braziers and the Drakenlord belong in Incursions

TLDR

The brazier concept for Drakenkeep is interesting, but it belongs in Incursions along with all of the other maps that have special gameplay mechanics.  Game modes should be consistent and predictable for the players.  Drakenkeep breaks the rules.

The Drakenlord basically shouldn't exist as a miniboss. Rather than allow players to choose gear/shards based on what they prefer for their active hero, we're forced to gear based on what makes them not lose the game.

Ignite

If you don't know by now, the Burning Strikes shard is the most efficient way to light the braziers and ignite the Drakenlord. It's a chaos 5 shard, something new players won't have for a while. In the mean time, they're struggling to deal with Drakenkeep adventure and the Drakenlord miniboss appearing in c1-c5 maps until they finally get one (I know RNG is RNG, but I've been opening c5 shard packs for over a week now and can't remember the last time I saw a Burning Strikes shard).

Oil and fire chips are an option, but new players won't have medals to spare for tinkering. Even if they did, it's bad design to force us to gear for a specific map/boss rather than allowing us to have a build that suits our play style. What about players who are doing AP resets? We have to choose between using a campaign weapon or pay $$$ to upgrade it.

The huntress is the only hero that can ignite straight out of the box, but can her mana reserves actually keep up with having to light 3-4 braziers multiple times per wave?

I still have to explain that you need to attack rollers from behind to people in c3 and c4. Even if they don't speak English, they will eventually get the hint from watching other players attack it from behind. How are new players supposed to understand what to do when they watch me shooting braziers and the Drakenlord with my Burning Strikes shard?

Drakenkeep

This map lies to you. It gives you oil and fire resources to light the brazier after the Drakenlord comes by and freezes them. Did anyone bother playtesting this to see if it was even possible to win with just the map resources? And I don't mean 4 players in c7 gear stomping on the adventure map. I mean a solo player on a difficulty comparable to their gear. There's no way you can light 3-4 braziers this way before you lose the wave. Why even bother giving us the map resources?

Get some friends? How many friends is Equmn going to get to help him when he goes to do 829? The only guys on the leaderboard right now above floor 700 are on 749 and 723. I've done 26 resets and I stopped announcing when I did Lost Temple floors on the Discord #looking-for-group channel back on reset 21 because almost no one joins from there. Onslaught may as well be considered a solo game mode.

Drakenlord

This guy is a ***. There's no other way to describe him. I've been farming c2 these past few days, which is pretty much an AFKfest when you have c7 gear. At least it used to be. With Drakenlord appearing as a regular miniboss, I have to babysit it the entire time. At one point, I pressed G and went to go to the bathroom. When I got back, Drakenlord was just finishing smashing up my crystal. If I'm paying attention, he dies in 1 shot from Ice Needle. How does this make the game fun?

It's even worse when he appears on the Drakenkeep map outside of wave 6. Dragon freezes 2 of my lanes on the opposite side of the map, Drakenlord miniboss extinguishes each brazier he walks past. This is an instant game over if you're by yourself (and if it's onslaught, you're by yourself most of the time).

No other boss in the game requires anything special to be able to beat them in terms of gear/shards. Every hero can kill them regardless of how you gear them. Huntress vs Geode Prime? Go stand inside his bubble and your arrows won't get reflected. Huntress vs Gorbstock? Shoot him from behind. Would the piercing mod help? Absolutely, but it isn't a requirement. Are some heroes better at it than others? You bet. Drakenlord is uniquely terrible because he requires a very specific setup to beat.

In closing

Keep the Incursion concepts and bosses out of Expeditions, Onslaught, and Mastery. If I wanted to do Incursions, I would go do Incursions. If you want me to do Incursions, make it worth my time. Add more enticing rewards or making genuinely fun (why not both?).  Don't just shove it down my throat while I am trying to play other game modes.

not saying i disagree with anything you said but i just wanted to point out that i’m a C7 player and i also sometimes struggle because i refuse to change any of my main’s gear/shards/mods just for this boss. 

the way i normally take him down is by using the huntress oil flask and then i switch to my mage to shoot him with my fire staff (dont think it has fire chip. i think its just a generic fire staff). this ignites him like 50% of the time. after that i switch back to my main to obliterate him.

I am the other way on it. I like the active play and want more. I don't want to do a single incursion map over and over again for a boss fight. 

Current bosses are not Bosses they are bigger Gobu. Bosses should be bosses and require something different.

The game changes so does tactics otherwise we all still be using Dryad

If your beating the game while going to the bathroom...what's the point of playing anymore?

the funny part to me is how silly the actual boss fight is , he is a joke . makes me think back on DD1 where all we had at the time was mistymire as far as a boss fight. finally taking her down in NM so i could play the 30 wave survival mode for good gear was epic. 

i been playing lots of c1-c3 lately and most players i chat with say they hate the new boss.

while i dont mind it in expeditions at all , I find it to be annoying in onslaught most the time . I am pretty much over onslaught just waiting to see what TE comes up with next. 

@uzar quote:

I am the other way on it. I like the active play and want more. I don't want to do a single incursion map over and over again for a boss fight. 

Current bosses are not Bosses they are bigger Gobu. Bosses should be bosses and require something different.

The game changes so does tactics otherwise we all still be using Dryad

If your beating the game while going to the bathroom...what's the point of playing anymore?

So play 9 other maps first, then switch to a "boss fight" map?  No one is stopping you from doing that.  You get your boss fights and those of us who don't want them can avoid them.  There should be something for everyone to enjoy.

I don't want to be forced to do boss fights.  It killed me in DD1 that I had to beat the campaign map in order to unlock the survival mode.  I only beat one of the boss maps solo in Nightmare (Moraggo).  Survival was better suited to my play style than the other game modes.  I don't have the reflexes to fight megabosses and no amount of "gitgud" is going to change that.

Drakenkeep had nothing to do with the decline in the popularity of the Dryad.  She's dead because her defenses are buggy and there are better options available right now.

So I shouldn't be able to AFK c2?  I'm not here because I think it's a good time.  Having a boss that I can 1shot when I'm paying attention ruin my day if I'm not hasn't made the game more interesting or fun.  If anything, it's made me resentful because the Drakenlord has made easy content annoying.  I suspect it has also made content that was already hard for me impossible (but I wouldn't know because I'm in reset purgatory and it would take forever to get back up to my record floor).

There are 2 overall points that need to happen

1 Incursion style encounters need to stay in Incursions

2 Incursions need better rewards and more replayability

In expeditions you can AFK Drakenlord with an oil geyser near spawn on all boss lanes and any other defense that's fire to ignite. The ice sheild will freeze as he is walking toward spawn but it's range is such, that by the time he actually gets out of spawn and gets to it's trigger point of oil geyser it's unfrozen and my FA or flame thrower (that kill siegerollers) burn him ded. I'm sure any old relic in oil geyser should be fine don't even think you'd need rate or dmg shards. Since we just need to oil it once to get the burn proc going.

Not that you don't have valid points about newer players and the issues of the braziers and draken map having incursion like mehcanics in onslaught. Just trying to offer a suggestion to help your low tier farming be less annoying.

@Cymmina quote

In closing

Keep the Incursion concepts and bosses out of Expeditions, Onslaught, and Mastery. If I wanted to do Incursions, I would go do Incursions. If you want me to do Incursions, make it worth my time. Add more enticing rewards or making genuinely fun (why not both?).  Don't just shove it down my throat while I am trying to play other game modes.

Having played this map a few times now I would like to say my Opinion... Definitely has not changed, It’s Awful like Nintendo Virtual Boy and Vegemite Bad  , I still love ya though trendy .

When it comes down to it, it’s just not fun, I don’t enjoy playing it on onslaught.

Not that it’s hard, it’s just annoying like really annoying, often times I do beat the Map a lot faster then I would Temple, I just don’t have fun playing it. 

As for the boss being on Chaos 1-7 ... not really a fan either, not that it’s hard it’s Damn  annoying .

So ill admit, incursions need a rework to make them a viable place to spend time. However saying the drakenlord isn't new player friendly is just wrong. His counter is the ignite combo between fire and oil? (also burning strikes, and tbh i think its bugged and not intended because burning strikes doesnt oil natually, maybe an oversight idk) Guess what character has both of those skills? ...Huntress. 12000 defender medals to buy her? Nope, 1000? Nope, FREE, literally given to you for free at the start of the game (alright 10 defender medals but they give you 20 to buy the monk and huntress after the first mission to show you how to get more heroes) Her second ability will oil the drakenlord and her 3 will do the fire dmg required to ignite. "what about his shield?" The bubble he projects DOESN'T reflect projectiles, so both abilities can be used at range and in safety. So if your playing in c2 as an endgame player having a huntress in your deck is the best way to go IMO, if you dont have burning strikes or its not gilded because resets. (more on the afk aspect later in this post)

 Now just starting c5 definitely got harder for the new player base, and that's crappy, however the drakenlord has a free counter that EVERYONE has access to, unless you didnt get the monk and huntress for some reason, but than you have worse problems i guess, they literally tell you to get them in the tutorial so.. yea. As far as onslaught goes, and im still resetting right now so i have NO IDEA what its like up in floor 800+, Equmn has almost done 100ish onslaught floors after the drakenlord has come out... solo. If its doable at floor 799, it cant be that bad at 299, or 399 or so on.  

As far as it being an incursion or not, Ill just be frank, i don't care that its in onslaught. I have no complaints. I also see no reason to talk about it anymore because that topic has been talked to death already, i'm just here for the drakenlord boss in expeditions part of the post.

As far as afkability goes (thats a word now google) I doubt they are just gonna throw a boss in the game without a reason. My best guess (as somebody who plays games and doesn't make them) is that they are changing the core game play to lean AWAY from:

1. load into map
2. hit g
3. build some defenses
4. turn on g macro
5. go make a sandwich
6. repeat

I doubt they wanted to make this game an idle game, or they would have just done that. So i think this drakenlord in expeditions is trendy's way of saying "hey, quit afking this game and play it" They totally half ***ed this tho. Because c1-c7 is a joke after a certain point, the only real challenge in this game after you are in c7 is mastery (kinda) and high onslaught floors (kinda). So yea, i think drakenlord is a sign that the game is taking a change of direction, making you actively play the game, instead of just hitting G and doing something else. I do hope that trendy makes the active experience more engaging without just "here is a boss only you can kill" or "here is a defense freeze only the player can stop" mechanics. AND if i could stop farming low lvl content in general after i've LONG since beaten it, that would be great! I don't get why its a thing, imagine the endgame of Borderlands 2 or diablo 3 forcing you to go to lower difficulties to get things you NEED for higher difficulties.... Just dumb.

I definitely agree with this even if it's talked to death. This is something I feel strongly about. As I said in the other thread. It's killing them established themes. And if DK is in this way in other gamemodes other than incursion, say, what's next then? Bastille Master and Yetis appearing in expeditions? Hitting buried bastille and Crumbled Bulwark in Expeditions and Onslaught and you will get Bastille Master and Altar of the Athame instead? *And don't tell me you want that. (I get the feeling the higher-ups of players will say yes)*. Well, I find it ridiculous. Like I said, then what's the point of having gamemode diversity if we're all going to be crammed into two gamemodes

And seriously, don't some of us missed the old version of Drakenfrost Keep. Imagine what's it like if there's no free-play unholy catacombs. Just spectral assault all the way. *(Don't tell me it feels good, you higher-ups are going to tell me that, aren't you?)*

*Possible Sarcasm

@Sarkhan Vol xbox quote:

In expeditions you can AFK Drakenlord with an oil geyser near spawn on all boss lanes and any other defense that's fire to ignite. The ice sheild will freeze as he is walking toward spawn but it's range is such, that by the time he actually gets out of spawn and gets to it's trigger point of oil geyser it's unfrozen and my FA or flame thrower (that kill siegerollers) burn him ded. I'm sure any old relic in oil geyser should be fine don't even think you'd need rate or dmg shards. Since we just need to oil it once to get the burn proc going.

Now this kinda reminded me of an issue that isn't so bad right now but still present in some manner. The Hard Counter issue. Another reason on why I pretty much disagreed with the boss being in Expeditions. I don't mind that boss (not the map) in Onslaught as this is already an established playstyle like lane diversity. But requiring a specific type of defense to kill that boss is very similar to the Hard counters which defies the playstyles that you want to use.

@BABurrito69 quote:

AND if i could stop farming low lvl content in general after i've LONG since beaten it, that would be great! I don't get why its a thing, imagine the endgame of Borderlands 2 or diablo 3 forcing you to go to lower difficulties to get things you NEED for higher difficulties.... Just dumb.

One of the reason on why I disagreed with gilding. I thought my shard farming days is over or at least went down to a minimum until gilding came.

@BABurrito69 quote:

So ill admit, incursions need a rework to make them a viable place to spend time. However saying the drakenlord isn't new player friendly is just wrong. His counter is the ignite combo between fire and oil? (also burning strikes, and tbh i think its bugged and not intended because burning strikes doesnt oil natually, maybe an oversight idk) Guess what character has both of those skills? ...Huntress. 12000 defender medals to buy her? Nope, 1000? Nope, FREE, literally given to you for free at the start of the game (alright 10 defender medals but they give you 20 to buy the monk and huntress after the first mission to show you how to get more heroes) Her second ability will oil the drakenlord and her 3 will do the fire dmg required to ignite. "what about his shield?" The bubble he projects DOESN'T reflect projectiles, so both abilities can be used at range and in safety. So if your playing in c2 as an endgame player having a huntress in your deck is the best way to go IMO, if you dont have burning strikes or its not gilded because resets. (more on the afk aspect later in this post)

 Now just starting c5 definitely got harder for the new player base, and that's crappy, however the drakenlord has a free counter that EVERYONE has access to, unless you didnt get the monk and huntress for some reason, but than you have worse problems i guess, they literally tell you to get them in the tutorial so.. yea. As far as onslaught goes, and im still resetting right now so i have NO IDEA what its like up in floor 800+, Equmn has almost done 100ish onslaught floors after the drakenlord has come out... solo. If its doable at floor 799, it cant be that bad at 299, or 399 or so on.  

As far as it being an incursion or not, Ill just be frank, i don't care that its in onslaught. I have no complaints. I also see no reason to talk about it anymore because that topic has been talked to death already, i'm just here for the drakenlord boss in expeditions part of the post.

As far as afkability goes (thats a word now google) I doubt they are just gonna throw a boss in the game without a reason. My best guess (as somebody who plays games and doesn't make them) is that they are changing the core game play to lean AWAY from:

1. load into map
2. hit g
3. build some defenses
4. turn on g macro
5. go make a sandwich
6. repeat

I doubt they wanted to make this game an idle game, or they would have just done that. So i think this drakenlord in expeditions is trendy's way of saying "hey, quit afking this game and play it" They totally half ***ed this tho. Because c1-c7 is a joke after a certain point, the only real challenge in this game after you are in c7 is mastery (kinda) and high onslaught floors (kinda). So yea, i think drakenlord is a sign that the game is taking a change of direction, making you actively play the game, instead of just hitting G and doing something else. I do hope that trendy makes the active experience more engaging without just "here is a boss only you can kill" or "here is a defense freeze only the player can stop" mechanics. AND if i could stop farming low lvl content in general after i've LONG since beaten it, that would be great! I don't get why its a thing, imagine the endgame of Borderlands 2 or diablo 3 forcing you to go to lower difficulties to get things you NEED for higher difficulties.... Just dumb.

I agree they are trying to take away from the afk playstyle that DD has had as a series. But the idea behind afking is because they make mediocre boring tasks the highlight of the games climb to better gear. If they took that out of the game then we wouldn’t feel the need to afk our lives away. If I didnt have to spend 6 hours farming c1/3/4 shards I wouldn’t afk. I don’t afk in any challenging content. I have the rewards from the game that should empower me to ease my way through content without bogging down my out of game schedule. I’ve done chores around my house while farming shards because I’d rather be productive and multi task than waste my time doing something that isn’t fun (incoming, why do you play if it’s not fun bombs.) And in response to that I play still because I do have fun when I’m doing the content that is. When they added shards they took away the whole “let’s play the highest content to get stronger approach”. Because now it isn’t about playing the highest content and getting stronger. It’s about playing c-7 a few times. Getting any mediocre medallion. Then just upgrading it and crafting it to perfection with no high tier grind required. Then going back and farming trash tier chaos levels to get shards that are the best in the game that influence your towers. If they changed the system back into the old setup where you don’t need shards, you’d see people playing more onslaught. And maybe seeing more resets as you wouldn’t need to gild 10 shards to prepare yourself for it. This is my opinion but shards really took this game from a grind that was enjoyable, to a mind numbing bore to try to get to content that is actually fun.

@TMyth quote:

I agree they are trying to take away from the afk playstyle that DD has had as a series. But the idea behind afking is because they make mediocre boring tasks the highlight of the games climb to better gear. If they took that out of the game then we wouldn’t feel the need to afk our lives away. If I didnt have to spend 6 hours farming c1/3/4 shards I wouldn’t afk. I don’t afk in any challenging content. I have the rewards from the game that should empower me to ease my way through content without bogging down my out of game schedule. I’ve done chores around my house while farming shards because I’d rather be productive and multi task than waste my time doing something that isn’t fun (incoming, why do you play if it’s not fun bombs.) And in response to that I play still because I do have fun when I’m doing the content that is. When they added shards they took away the whole “let’s play the highest content to get stronger approach”. Because now it isn’t about playing the highest content and getting stronger. It’s about playing c-7 a few times. Getting any mediocre medallion. Then just upgrading it and crafting it to perfection with no high tier grind required. Then going back and farming trash tier chaos levels to get shards that are the best in the game that influence your towers. If they changed the system back into the old setup where you don’t need shards, you’d see people playing more onslaught. And maybe seeing more resets as you wouldn’t need to gild 10 shards to prepare yourself for it. This is my opinion but shards really took this game from a grind that was enjoyable, to a mind numbing bore to try to get to content that is actually fun.

Agreed. Back in the NM4 days, I usually try to farm and collect weapon at a high Ipwr. I don't get satisfied anything below NM4. Right now.....I couldn't care less if I get them at a lower difficulty as all that gets irrelevant with resets.

I wonder how will it be if shard drop locations is changed from difficulty to regional. For example, Isle of Dread drops chaos 3 shards and The Liferoot drops Chaos 6 shards. So essentially, it'll be changed to Isle of Dread shards or Liferoot shards. Or maybe another cool name since almost none of the shards are themed to the region. Just an idea.

@TMyth quote:

If I didnt have to spend 6 hours farming c1/3/4 shards I wouldn’t afk.

Trendy you need to do something about this issue, as it´s really hurting the game. It is mindnumbingly boring to AFK lower content, just to be able to upgrade stuff. 

The fact that you do your best w/Drakenboss to take away the AFK element, doesn´t make the grind more exciting. 

I constantly find myself in situations where I need ressources just to try out new builds. And more often than not, I just turn off the game, instead of grinding an hour or two just to try out an idea real quick.

I agree.

@BABurrito69 quote:

So ill admit, incursions need a rework to make them a viable place to spend time. However saying the drakenlord isn't new player friendly is just wrong. His counter is the ignite combo between fire and oil? (also burning strikes, and tbh i think its bugged and not intended because burning strikes doesnt oil natually, maybe an oversight idk) Guess what character has both of those skills? ...Huntress. 12000 defender medals to buy her? Nope, 1000? Nope, FREE, literally given to you for free at the start of the game (alright 10 defender medals but they give you 20 to buy the monk and huntress after the first mission to show you how to get more heroes) Her second ability will oil the drakenlord and her 3 will do the fire dmg required to ignite. "what about his shield?" The bubble he projects DOESN'T reflect projectiles, so both abilities can be used at range and in safety. So if your playing in c2 as an endgame player having a huntress in your deck is the best way to go IMO, if you dont have burning strikes or its not gilded because resets. (more on the afk aspect later in this post)

Hypothetically, everyone can do it with the oil/fire resources on the map.  The million dollar question here is:  have you done it on whatever your toughest Drakenkeep floor is?

You completely glossed over the part where I question whether or not it's viable to rely on the Huntress due to mana costs.  With max mana ascension and gilded Mana Capacitor (which most new players won't have), I have 470 mana.  It costs 50 mana for Oil Flask and 100 for Piercing Shot.  If I have to light 3 braziers, that's 450 mana; 4 braziers costs 600 mana, which is 130 mana more than I have.  Drakenlord flies by more than once per wave and can appear as a miniboss that will extinguish any brazier he walks past.  As an added bonus, Piercing Shot also has a 10s cooldown.  So good luck relying on that to quickly light the extinguished braziers.

@Cymmina quote:

@BABurrito69 quote:

So ill admit, incursions need a rework to make them a viable place to spend time. However saying the drakenlord isn't new player friendly is just wrong. His counter is the ignite combo between fire and oil? (also burning strikes, and tbh i think its bugged and not intended because burning strikes doesnt oil natually, maybe an oversight idk) Guess what character has both of those skills? ...Huntress. 12000 defender medals to buy her? Nope, 1000? Nope, FREE, literally given to you for free at the start of the game (alright 10 defender medals but they give you 20 to buy the monk and huntress after the first mission to show you how to get more heroes) Her second ability will oil the drakenlord and her 3 will do the fire dmg required to ignite. "what about his shield?" The bubble he projects DOESN'T reflect projectiles, so both abilities can be used at range and in safety. So if your playing in c2 as an endgame player having a huntress in your deck is the best way to go IMO, if you dont have burning strikes or its not gilded because resets. (more on the afk aspect later in this post)

Hypothetically, everyone can do it with the oil/fire resources on the map.  The million dollar question here is:  have you done it on whatever your toughest Drakenkeep floor is?

You completely glossed over the part where I question whether or not it's viable to rely on the Huntress due to mana costs.  With max mana ascension and gilded Mana Capacitor (which most new players won't have), I have 470 mana.  It costs 50 mana for Oil Flask and 100 for Piercing Shot.  If I have to light 3 braziers, that's 450 mana; 4 braziers costs 600 mana, which is 130 mana more than I have.  Drakenlord flies by more than once per wave and can appear as a miniboss that will extinguish any brazier he walks past.  As an added bonus, Piercing Shot also has a 10s cooldown.  So good luck relying on that to quickly light the extinguished braziers.

well yea i missed that, i glossed over the parts about the map. Iwas only talking about using her for the boss fight in expeditions. However for lighting the braziers its still totally viable strat. you forgot about mods like channel that gives flat mana regen, power of storms that gives mana regen on hits with her bow and the mana while inactive mod. No i think using her as a solo option isnt the best idea, but with inspiration, channel and power of storms you can get all the mana you need to get all the braziers with only 300 mana, and using the inactive mana chip, you can have her in your deck as a brazier lighter and swap to your main dps for the lane/boss killing. I personally use huntress for pdt's alot (everymap has at least one) on the current reset im on ill absolutely set this up. Ill totally set aside my barb and use huntress on all the drakenfrost maps just to see if its viable for floors 59-79 (if your goin higher in onslaught than 80 i dont count you as a beginner anymore and you should rly go get burning strikes and a barb IMO.) is this build viablew for floor 500+? lol nope, but thats nowhere near beginner lvl at all. But for the drakenlord in reg maps and for the keep in expiditions and low onslaught, i guarantee its viable, ill admit more challenging than barb+burn strikes (which imo is the simplest way to do the map cause barb is op and can ignore assassins) 

Also i dont have a t10 tenacity, ive never got one to drop so i wont have that to rely on for cheesing the drakenfrost keep. ill take alook at the viability of what i claim and post here for ya

@BABurrito69 quote:

well yea i missed that, i glossed over the parts about the map. Iwas only talking about using her for the boss fight in expeditions. However for lighting the braziers its still totally viable strat. you forgot about mods like channel that gives flat mana regen, power of storms that gives mana regen on hits with her bow and the mana while inactive mod. No i think using her as a solo option isnt the best idea, but with inspiration, channel and power of storms you can get all the mana you need to get all the braziers with only 300 mana, and using the inactive mana chip, you can have her in your deck as a brazier lighter and swap to your main dps for the lane/boss killing. I personally use huntress for pdt's alot (everymap has at least one) on the current reset im on ill absolutely set this up. Ill totally set aside my barb and use huntress on all the drakenfrost maps just to see if its viable for floors 59-79 (if your goin higher in onslaught than 80 i dont count you as a beginner anymore and you should rly go get burning strikes and a barb IMO.) is this build viablew for floor 500+? lol nope, but thats nowhere near beginner lvl at all. But for the drakenlord in reg maps and for the keep in expiditions and low onslaught, i guarantee its viable, ill admit more challenging than barb+burn strikes (which imo is the simplest way to do the map cause barb is op and can ignore assassins) 

Also i dont have a t10 tenacity, ive never got one to drop so i wont have that to rely on for cheesing the drakenfrost keep. ill take alook at the viability of what i claim and post here for ya

So basically, Huntress doesn't actually work for this out of the box.

You don't even know if your suggestions are viable, but you're acting like they are.  Gilded Power of Storms is a 12% chance of restoring a total of 60 mana (20 per second for 3 seconds) with a cooldown of 10 seconds.  Gilded Channel restores 19 mana every 5 seconds.  I highly doubt the Mana Growth chip is going to do anything, and it won't work at the same time as the mana recovery shards (if you watch Juicebag's recent Adept video, he mentions there are players who use it on the extremely mana hungry hero and still have problems).  Don't forget Inspiration and Inspiring Strikes to bring down the cooldown on Piercing Shot from the original 10 seconds.  At this point, you've wasted a lot of time and money to upgrade shards and apply mods in an attempt to make a hero "you can totally do this with" actually viable.

Your solution is that everyone should just play Barb with Burning Strikes.  And then the next map comes out that requires the next thing and the next thing.  Pretty soon, we aren't playing what's fun or does the best DPS anymore.  We're all playing the only build that lets us make it through the game.  So much for diversity.

Foremost, I am not a player even over floor 200 in Onslaught. But for where I am I like it. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it should stay but it has been a decent change of pace. 

My two cents. 

no, i didn't say the barb is the only viable strat for the map, the simplest, yes. but there are other ways to beat that map. you are right i haven't tried huntress at all, like i said in the last post i will be trying it later however, without gilded versions of those shards. The only wave that might be a problem is wave 5 where the dragon can show up multiple times in a row. 

Build diversity gets thrown out the window the minute the difficulty goes up, that has been a staple in EVERY game ever. The idea of the ''meta'' has existed since literally the start of gaming as a whole, maybe not called a meta. even further back than that. There are strategies and play styles that remove the fun from games, and players will optimize the fun out of any game they play. Read this article if you want: https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369 

It talks about how no matter what the setting, game, difficulty curve etc, we, the player will gravitate to the best strategy, no matter how fun it is. Trendy can't change that, they can offer buffs to defenses, and as soon as something is buffed past WM, or they are nerfed outright, players will instantly go to the new best thing. So when they make a map that requires a certain combo, we as players are going to find the simplest way to do it. Rollers? shoot them in the butt. Cyborks? towers or WM stun. Geodes? Pierce pdt's. Cannon ogre? Out range or raw hp. Frost? Fire servos. Drakenfrost keep? Barb with oil combo.  Assassins? Sparkle party or turtle stance. Hex throwers? Reflect walls. These are some of the best counters to these additions that trendy has added to the game, are there other options? well yea! But they just aren't as good, meaning they are relegated to irrelevancy. 

We as a player base want content and we don't wanna afk. you have said it yourself afking lower content is super boring, a sentiment that i share. Trendy is clearly changing the game to reflect that idea. Like i said a very poor start imo, but it is a start. So yea not every strategy is going to keep pace with the burning strikes barb for the keep, but we as a player base (as an avg, there are ppl who ignore the meta) are only going to choose the best option given a set of options, regardless of the content that is added.

@Cymmina quote:

Your solution is that everyone should just play Barb with Burning Strikes.  And then the next map comes out that requires the next thing and the next thing.  Pretty soon, we aren't playing what's fun or does the best DPS anymore.  We're all playing the only build that lets us make it through the game.  So much for diversity.

90% of the player base is going to gravitate to the best options, no matter what gets introduced and no matter how boring. "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."  Do you remember when dryad meta was literally the only thing in this entire game?  every onslaught floor was dryad, every c1-7 was dryad, everything was bees n trees. Not an ounce of anything else. (again some meta breakers here and there, but not consistent) What if instead of making content that requires to change your build and play styles, your character choices, your defenses etc, they just built everything with the mindset of "lets make content anything can beat" People will still find the best defenses and mainly use them, and not care about anything else.

 By making players think, and giving options (some better than others, ill admit) they allow us to choose what works best and they can add or change things to make us constantly re-evaluate what the "meta" is. if the map makes players gravitate to a certain play style, than another map needs something else different entirely, that's so much better than "what are we gonna use today? oh yea same thing we use everyday!" 

Basically 1/10th of your onslaught push, your using burning strikes on watev character you want, or an oil combo. Honestly that sounds way better than every map you see, put trees and some bees. Or right now, put WM down and maybe either lsa's or fire rams depending on the lane.

@Cymmina quote:

So basically, Huntress doesn't actually work for this out of the box.

well yea u cant take the huntress and do the braziers lvl 1 with nothing, there isnt a defense OR hero that works "out of the box" even barb+burning strikes you still need to get a shard. 

just burning strikes shard on any char why are people so fixed on barb and hunter .

i use burning strikes with my gun witch thats all except in the rare case where the ice bugs out which basically means no matter how many times i hit it with burning strikes its still frozen .sometimes hitting it with a different burning thing like hunters searing piercing shot will fix it .sometimes draken lord also does this bug so having 2 different ignite's is handy and my hunters is basically lvl 0 i just use her and the special bow for an ignite every reset and i just give her hp in assention's 1st colum to live a bit longer

@BABurrito69 quote:

By making players think, and giving options (some better than others, ill admit) they allow us to choose what works best and they can add or change things to make us constantly re-evaluate what the "meta" is. if the map makes players gravitate to a certain play style, than another map needs something else different entirely, that's so much better than "what are we gonna use today? oh yea same thing we use everyday!"

This part resonated within me. I like the idea of having 10 maps each with a different strategy. The problem I see here will not be an issue for me but will for many others, that means 10 different relic setups, with 10 different mod setups and possibly 10 different shard setups. That's going to be a lot of work for the fun you could get out of that idea. This wouldn't have been a problem back in the day where mods didn't exist but now, not so much.

That is considering they dump it all on us. If they released one map at a time and left it to be examined, planned for, and executed, then we would have the ability to take this kind of progression. Every new player would have to do lots of work though after a full implementation since they would hit each task one by one and need to stop and go back for a new setup.

Another way to do this would be to have each unique map introduced slowly through progression at certain milestones. If you had each new thing every 60-70 floors then as you got really high in Onslaught you would have them all but you had time to acclimate yourself to each one and get sounds strategies for them. This does mean leaving Drakenfrost Keep in Onslaught as the first step though and that is something we have to agree on first.

@Exglint quote:

@BABurrito69 quote:

By making players think, and giving options (some better than others, ill admit) they allow us to choose what works best and they can add or change things to make us constantly re-evaluate what the "meta" is. if the map makes players gravitate to a certain play style, than another map needs something else different entirely, that's so much better than "what are we gonna use today? oh yea same thing we use everyday!"

This part resonated within me. I like the idea of having 10 maps each with a different strategy. The problem I see here will not be an issue for me but will for many others, that means 10 different relic setups, with 10 different mod setups and possibly 10 different shard setups. That's going to be a lot of work for the fun you could get out of that idea. This wouldn't have been a problem back in the day where mods didn't exist but now, not so much.

That is considering they dump it all on us. If they released one map at a time and left it to be examined, planned for, and executed, then we would have the ability to take this kind of progression. Every new player would have to do lots of work though after a full implementation since they would hit each task one by one and need to stop and go back for a new setup.

Another way to do this would be to have each unique map introduced slowly through progression at certain milestones. If you had each new thing every 60-70 floors then as you got really high in Onslaught you would have them all but you had time to acclimate yourself to each one and get sounds strategies for them. This does mean leaving Drakenfrost Keep in Onslaught as the first step though and that is something we have to agree on first.

Yep, this is idea would be brutal for new players. Would probably kill the player base even more. Making people do the boring grind of shard farming is for more hardcore players. Having 10 characters with specced medallions is a hardcore play. Most people are just playing c7 and enjoying the game. The hardcore to casual player base is getting skewed too much by adding ridiculously high tier content to the point people just don’t want to play cause it’ll take them months to get to anyone else who’s even playing the game

@TMyth quote:

@Exglint quote:

@BABurrito69 quote:

By making players think, and giving options (some better than others, ill admit) they allow us to choose what works best and they can add or change things to make us constantly re-evaluate what the "meta" is. if the map makes players gravitate to a certain play style, than another map needs something else different entirely, that's so much better than "what are we gonna use today? oh yea same thing we use everyday!"

This part resonated within me. I like the idea of having 10 maps each with a different strategy. The problem I see here will not be an issue for me but will for many others, that means 10 different relic setups, with 10 different mod setups and possibly 10 different shard setups. That's going to be a lot of work for the fun you could get out of that idea. This wouldn't have been a problem back in the day where mods didn't exist but now, not so much.

That is considering they dump it all on us. If they released one map at a time and left it to be examined, planned for, and executed, then we would have the ability to take this kind of progression. Every new player would have to do lots of work though after a full implementation since they would hit each task one by one and need to stop and go back for a new setup.

Another way to do this would be to have each unique map introduced slowly through progression at certain milestones. If you had each new thing every 60-70 floors then as you got really high in Onslaught you would have them all but you had time to acclimate yourself to each one and get sounds strategies for them. This does mean leaving Drakenfrost Keep in Onslaught as the first step though and that is something we have to agree on first.

Yep, this is idea would be brutal for new players. Would probably kill the player base even more. Making people do the boring grind of shard farming is for more hardcore players. Having 10 characters with specced medallions is a hardcore play. Most people are just playing c7 and enjoying the game. The hardcore to casual player base is getting skewed too much by adding ridiculously high tier content to the point people just don’t want to play cause it’ll take them months to get to anyone else who’s even playing the game

In addition I can speak first hand from this. I have numerous friends who have wanted to play the game with me. But all of them are discouraged they will have to sit through content that is mediocre at best. No one wants to wait a month to play with their friend and no one wants to step back from high tier play to grind campaign content. Especially with limited time and I’m burned on old content. I played far too much when the game was still in alpha to even want to touch anything old with a 12 ft pole. That’s just my personal experience with ridiculous grind additions. They need more fun content. Definitely not anymore shard grinding madness.

Its a grind game we know this, but how do you suggest someone just starting be able to play with someone that has as you say played since alpha and just be carried? I mean are they really playing at this point and do you want to see "campaign " people on floor 700 the day they start?

I don't expect to start anything and be on the same  caliber of a person playing for 5 years in anything after even a month time let alone a few days.

@TMyth quote:

In addition I can speak first hand from this. I have numerous friends who have wanted to play the game with me. But all of them are discouraged they will have to sit through content that is mediocre at best. No one wants to wait a month to play with their friend and no one wants to step back from high tier play to grind campaign content. Especially with limited time and I’m burned on old content. I played far too much when the game was still in alpha to even want to touch anything old with a 12 ft pole. That’s just my personal experience with ridiculous grind additions. They need more fun content. Definitely not anymore shard grinding madness.