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giux

Rerolls MODs chance it's just too low!

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@Exglint quote:

Multiple people have also reported getting a max roll in the first 1-3 tries, did you calculate for them? The best and frankly only way to get a good set of data is to have one person do it all or even better have a few people each do the same number of rolls, not by taking random numbers from random people which will only lead to a mess of data from unconfirmed sets. I've rolled 6-8 times and there is nothing stopping me from saying I've rolled 150 times and gotten nothing above 5, it is common for people, especially on the forums, to blow their statistics way out of proportion, which can be seen on literally any "Shard rng unfair" thread.

If this game is due to die because of lack of content then we surely would have died already, we are not going to die with this much to do tbh, we spend months not dying with only 4 maps to do in c7. We are fine right now.

Adaptation to balance passes can be seen in any game. Take any MMORPG that isn't WoW, if they have a character class that's too powerful and lots of people play it and they nerf it to less than another character, then large amounts of people have to start a whole new character and take it through content they have already done and is very boring. I have done this a few times, the story quests to level suck. WoW is the only one to make this not a thing anymore with their insta level system, and what do we get with that? Nubs playing high level characters they know nothing about dragging everyone else down.

If you would be open to it, I can find you some intro videos on statistics. Don't take offense, but it's clear it's something you need. 

The game isn't "fine right now". The leaderboards barely move because there is barely anyone trying content that high. If we could vote to have a player represent us, I'd vote for Nigiri. He doesn't want easy mode. He doesn't want zero grind instant gratification. He does want the game to be about Tower Defense, not this material farming simulation that we have (in my case, had) now. 

I saw they now have a phase 3 planned. I want to be optimistic, but then I look at how mod rerolls were handled (in some cases, even with targeting, the reroll system is worse than just farming for the mod) and wonder what extra layer of farming and randomness can be added.

I'd think you would want to be an advocate for a game with more than a few dozen people actively participating in the hardest content available. Maybe this "look at how grueling an experience I like in a game; I'm no gaming pleb" take on things is working against that for you.

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@Unleashed quote:

If you would be open to it, I can find you some intro videos on statistics. Don't take offense, but it's clear it's something you need. 

The game isn't "fine right now". The leaderboards barely move because there is barely anyone trying content that high. If we could vote to have a player represent us, I'd vote for Nigiri. He doesn't want easy mode. He doesn't want zero grind instant gratification. He does want the game to be about Tower Defense, not this material farming simulation that we have (in my case, had) now. 

I saw they now have a phase 3 planned. I want to be optimistic, but then I look at how mod rerolls were handled (in some cases, even with targeting, the reroll system is worse than just farming for the mod) and wonder what extra layer of farming and randomness can be added.

I'd think you would want to be an advocate for a game with more than a few dozen people actively participating in the hardest content available. Maybe this "look at how grueling an experience I like in a game; I'm no gaming pleb" take on things is working against that for you.

That first part was very clear you wanted to be a smarta$$, because you know I'm right. People lie about what they get and you can't get a conclusive set of data after 50-300 rerolls. Nigiri, your little bromance, has the best view of things right now because he has been recording every quality roll he has gotten. Even with that he still hasn't rerolled enough, if his next two are both 10/10 then that will skew his data drastically hence the need for a large amount of rerolls.

The rest is just you being you, a negative nancy, it's not even worth the time to read through it and give a response, especially given that you claim to not even play anymore. I wonder if that is another lie from another random person.

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@Exglint quote:

That first part was very clear you wanted to be a smarta$$, because you know I'm right. People lie about what they get and you can't get a conclusive set of data after 50-300 rerolls. Nigiri, your little bromance, has the best view of things right now because he has been recording every quality roll he has gotten. Even with that he still hasn't rerolled enough, if his next two are both 10/10 then that will skew his data drastically hence the need for a large amount of rerolls.

The rest is just you being you, a negative nancy, it's not even worth the time to read through it and give a response, especially given that you claim to not even play anymore. I wonder if that is another lie from another random person.

It's not. I just routinely see you have difficulty grasping how drop rates work. I can't think of a gentler way to offer help. A single person can't provide meaningful statistical data on drop rates this low. Just can't happen. Too easy to be an outlier in either direction. All Trendy has to do to clear this up, is publish the drop rates. Easy.

As for Nigiri, it isn't a bromance, he's just right. 

And unfortunately, I don't play anymore. Something that's been true for a few weeks. I'd be happy to give Trendy permission to provide both my playtime and my spend on a monthly basis. ;)

I wish it wasn't the case. Core is still one of the better games out there. Family friendly as well. But it is.

As for the reaction, I don't know how to help you handle criticism. I don't dislike you.

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@Exglint quote:


@PHPH quote:

I think the devs are moving the game in the right direction, and have been for the last several updates, but the game certainly isn't in a good place right now.

I agree, things can always be better, but this thread is targeting mod rerolls, something we just got and in less than a week are already crying wolf about chances at getting certain mod qualities. Unless I'm missing something I do not believe it possible to have already gotten over 1000 tokens to get a halfway decent look at chances much less 5000 or 10k. 

Lawlta said Trendy is looking into it so that's great but I notice that every patch is always this knee jerk reaction from the community and they haven't had the time to do the requisite testing on the thing yet. 

Yeah, that's fair. 

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@Exglint quote:


@Unleashed quote:

If you would be open to it, I can find you some intro videos on statistics. Don't take offense, but it's clear it's something you need. 

The game isn't "fine right now". The leaderboards barely move because there is barely anyone trying content that high. If we could vote to have a player represent us, I'd vote for Nigiri. He doesn't want easy mode. He doesn't want zero grind instant gratification. He does want the game to be about Tower Defense, not this material farming simulation that we have (in my case, had) now. 

I saw they now have a phase 3 planned. I want to be optimistic, but then I look at how mod rerolls were handled (in some cases, even with targeting, the reroll system is worse than just farming for the mod) and wonder what extra layer of farming and randomness can be added.

I'd think you would want to be an advocate for a game with more than a few dozen people actively participating in the hardest content available. Maybe this "look at how grueling an experience I like in a game; I'm no gaming pleb" take on things is working against that for you.

That first part was very clear you wanted to be a smarta$$, because you know I'm right. People lie about what they get and you can't get a conclusive set of data after 50-300 rerolls. Nigiri, your little bromance, has the best view of things right now because he has been recording every quality roll he has gotten. Even with that he still hasn't rerolled enough, if his next two are both 10/10 then that will skew his data drastically hence the need for a large amount of rerolls.

The rest is just you being you, a negative nancy, it's not even worth the time to read through it and give a response, especially given that you claim to not even play anymore. I wonder if that is another lie from another random person.

I like you glint but damn are you really gonna argue that the rolls are not low?

If the chances were reasonably high or there was a pity timer Lawlta would've called my lies, but clearly the rates are designed to be low. It doesn't take a genius to make a little probability calculation to understand that there it would be a 'meteorite on the head situation' if after 300 rerolls you get ONE 9/10. Do the math.

In my personal case I've rerolled atleast 50 times and never seen anything 5 or above. Yesterday I did 15 rerolls it was literally: 1,1,1,2,1,1,1, etc

The way this system is designed it's demoralizing.

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@giux quote:

I like you glint but damn are you really gonna argue that the rolls are not low? 

If the chances were reasonably high or there was a pity timer Lawlta would've called my lies, but clearly the rates are designed to be low. It doesn't take a genius to make a little probability calculation to understand that there it would be a 'meteorite on the head situation' if after 300 rerolls you get ONE 9/10. Do the math.

In my personal case I've rerolled atleast 50 times and never seen anything 5 or above. Yesterday I did 15 rerolls it was literally: 1,1,1,2,1,1,1, etc

The way this system is designed it's demoralizing.

The only thing I have claimed so far is a guess to how many it will take to get a 10/10 based on how many items you get per map, how long a map takes to complete and the average time to see a 10/10 mod. With those I got 20 items dropped per c7, 10 mins to complete c7 maps, and 4 hours to see a max mod. 4 hours is 240 mins meaning you can do on average 24 maps, getting 20 drops per is 480 drops. With that I concluded that it would take 480 rerolls to get a 10/10 as it takes that many drops to get a 10/10. At 2 reroll tokens per map that is 240 maps to get a 10/10 r 40 hours worth of running maps to get that many tokens.

Lawlta has since commented in that thread to say the numbers are wrong, and I recalculated based on how many tokens you can get in 4 hours, which came out to 24 maps or 48 tokens, and well we have seen that is wrong so I threw that number out.

I eventually came back the drawing board and came up with 240 on average to get a 10/10. This I came to based on the 4 hours to see a random max then said "How much more work would I expect for a specific mod" came up with 5 times as I put in about 25 hours a week and that would be 20 hours to get one specific mod per week and concluded 48 x 5 = 240 rerolls. 

As far as actually testing that, I have 200 reroll tokens now and once I hit 300 I'm going to do them all and record every roll I get, then probably keep going for my next set of 300 and keep repeating that unless they confirm a change is coming in the next week. If they decide to change it then I will hold off until they change it.

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