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giux

Rerolls MODs chance it's just too low!

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As the title says, the newly introduced items for rerolling MODS are just insanely low chance. I've used more than 50 and never seen anything above 5/10. Multiple people from discord saying that they used 300+ and never seen more than a 8/10.

It seems pretty clear that it's not a case of being unlucky and we're not even talking about 10s, anything 7+ seems to be very low chance to the point where it's probably easier dropping it the old way than wasting time doing the new map over and over.

I get that some reroll items are dropped in onslaught etc and that's a nice bonus but if I wanna target farm rerolls it's a waste of time.

Let's assume the chance of rerolling a mod into a 10/10 it's 1/300 (it's probably less but let's just pretend).

2 rerolls per game x 150 games x 5 min a game = 25h doing the same map for a CHANCE at a 10/10.

That's more than half of a weekly full time job, I think that's ludicrous, and remember this is all for ONE mod!

This new reroll system was sold as a way to 'target farm mods' when in truth it's just an added bonus like playing the lotto that doesn't really allow MOD target farming. You're literally trying to fix an RNG problem with RNG...

If the very low chances are intentional, atleast you guys should implement a pity timer e.g. after 300 rerolls used you get a 10, because with the current low chance it's pretty easy that some players will never see a max mod after 500 rerolls; but you probably tested this already.

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We've got a middle ground coming, a phase 3 (though it's smaller than phase 2), that should sate both of the desires from users on both ends of this topic. :)

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Hoping it’s along the lines of - if you have a 7-8-9 mod already you have a greater chance at getting that 10.  Lower Mods should have a harder percentage chance. 

@LAWLTA quote:

We've got a middle ground coming, a phase 3 (though it's smaller than phase 2), that should sate both of the desires from users on both ends of this topic. :)


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@giux quote:This new reroll system was sold as a way to 'target farm mods' when in truth it's just an added bonus like playing the lotto that doesn't really allow MOD target farming. You're literally trying to fix an RNG problem with RNG...

If the very low chances are intentional, atleast you guys should implement a pity timer e.g. after 300 rerolls used you get a 10, because with the current low chance it's pretty easy that some players will never see a max mod after 500 rerolls; but you probably tested this already.

Agree completely.  Came back after a long break because of the crazy grind in the game right now and I find the grind is still there, there's just a slight chance at improving gear rather than finding perfect drops.

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@LAWLTA quote:

We've got a middle ground coming, a phase 3 (though it's smaller than phase 2), that should sate both of the desires from users on both ends of this topic. :)

Can we get a legendary beard flare and name it The Lawlta?

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@gcstephen13 quote:

Hoping it’s along the lines of - if you have a 7-8-9 mod already you have a greater chance at getting that 10.  Lower Mods should have a harder percentage chance.

Seems like a good idea to me.  I rolled 10 and all of them were 1 out of 10 rolls so I stopped as I figured I was wasting my time.

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@giux quote:

2 rerolls per game x 150 games x 5 min a game = 25h doing the same map for a CHANCE at a 10/10.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way, as are probably most people who are attempting to reroll for a 10/10. It isn't about giving you another way to get a 10/10 in 4 or 10 hours, it's about giving you a super specific 10/10. Pick any mod, Anti-melee, Tenacity, Def Rate, Shocking Revelation, any mod that can be used on multiple defenses and go farm for a 10/10. I bet you don't get it within a very short time, I bet you don't even get it in 50 or 100 hours. That's what this system is for, eliminating the randomness of mods and letting you "pick" which mod you want chances on and in the mean time you can use it.

So lets say you get a 4/10 anti-melee, you put it on the relic because that's the best you have. You reroll it 30 times and get a 7/10 now you have an improvement, and you didn't farm endlessly waiting not only to get lucky about getting a 7/10 but also lucky that it was an anti-melee on top of that.

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@Exglint quote:


@giux quote:

2 rerolls per game x 150 games x 5 min a game = 25h doing the same map for a CHANCE at a 10/10.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way, as are probably most people who are attempting to reroll for a 10/10. It isn't about giving you another way to get a 10/10 in 4 or 10 hours, it's about giving you a super specific 10/10. Pick any mod, Anti-melee, Tenacity, Def Rate, Shocking Revelation, any mod that can be used on multiple defenses and go farm for a 10/10. I bet you don't get it within a very short time, I bet you don't even get it in 50 or 100 hours. That's what this system is for, eliminating the randomness of mods and letting you "pick" which mod you want chances on and in the mean time you can use it.

So lets say you get a 4/10 anti-melee, you put it on the relic because that's the best you have. You reroll it 30 times and get a 7/10 now you have an improvement, and you didn't farm endlessly waiting not only to get lucky about getting a 7/10 but also lucky that it was an anti-melee on top of that.

Lets be real here, this is about 10/10s. People progressing, moving gear to c8 only care about 10s. 

There is a small part of the game where we care about 7/10-9/10 that the majority of us passed before mods even came out.

This is supposed to be a tower defense game that involves grinding to progress.

Over the last 6 months its turned into a grind game with tower defense sprinkled in.

I wouldnt even mind the grind game if it was an effective grind at the highest content tier you were at. But its a grind game where you have the best chance at gear progression by lowering down to a content tier where the mod pool is the smallest for the mod you want.

Lets just walk through state of the game shall we. Lets say I want a max defense rate mod.

Step 1: Farm c4, lowest tier it drops. I will be farming draken keep since I will most likely need to reroll due to the rng nature of mod drops (thx for the 10 anti skelly mods trendy)

Step 2: after about 25 hours of farming c4 and not getting a 10/10 defense rate mod I now have enough rerolls to have a good chance of getting a 10, oops RNG wasnt on my side, lets grind another 3 hours. Ok finally got one wow I feel lucky.

Step 3: Ok now I need to move this c4 defense rate to c7. Well now I need to run 2-4 more dungeon maps, since reroll drops are on a separate map from the maps I need to upgrade relics.. Ok 20 minutes later the mod is at c7.

Step 4: Ok now we are assuming I repeated 1-3 for the other 2 mods I want for the relic I am eventually gonna use to continue onslaught progression. I finally combine all of them on to 1 relic (after grinding 6-8 more maps for the pristine clusters needed) 50 hours (for 2 other mods) + 30 minutes for the additional pristine clusters.

Step 5: Ok now I need 6 c8 amps. I typically get one every 10 maps, so lets say 60 onslaught maps later, spamming the same ~100 floor non lost temple map.

Step 6: Damn now I have all my amps, but I still need 250 pristine clusters. Ok back to running about 140 more c7 dungeon maps afk style.

Step 7: OMG I finally built 1 relic for onslaught progression. I can actually play the tower defense portion of the "game" and not this material farming simulator where I put my defenses that far outscale the content down and watch netflix for 100 hours.





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@Nigiri_Toro quote:


@Zombiewookie quote:

1 relic is not gonna bring you far in onslaught atm however  ;) 

Thats a great point!, so now lets do all of that 3-4 more times before we can continue playing!

I would add to this that during the time you had been farming a new balance patch has hit and may or may not nerf parts of that relic(boom mods, shocking rev)

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And then you if AP reset please repeat steps 3 through 6 again please with some bonus mote farming to boot.😣

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xD You know the funny part is....all of this. I have apparently been playing so long I got to see people complain about having something to do. Let us rewind the clocks and go back to last March, c5 is endgame, you grind for a little bit and get top end stats on your gear, you have decent or great asc. That's it, you're done. You are afking the hardest content, there is nothing left to grind for, nothing left to do. Trendy puts out c6 an c7. In one day we beat that and got top c7 gear, in one week our entire deck is geared in top c7 gear, in a month our entire selection of heroes have top c7 gear and the deck is using what was referred to as 22.9k relics. At this point in time Xbox still hasn't even received the game yet but the other two platforms already have nothing to do except grind "easy c7" content. Meanwhile, WM got a nerf somewhere in there and the meta changed. Within hours we had a new meta that was able to destroy c7 and we continue to afk c7 because it's literally the only thing to do. Xbox gets the game during the summer which gives them something to do but the rest of us continue to bash our face into the cheese grater that is c7. Shortly after Adept comes out with the Revenge of the Yeti incursion, this lasted all of 2 days before it got boring and literally no rewards (of course Xbox had this map before the other two platforms so they are already done with it). November comes around and each week one tier of Mastery is released, each one is beat in 6 hours. The only tiers that took longer were c6 and c7 taking 12 and 9-10 hours. This brought Dryad into the meta in a big way. Onslaught followed behind on Dec 12th bringing us an endless mode. The push had a wall and floor 114 was a huge goal line since it was very hard to get to and many people couldn't get to floor 65 to even reset. This point was 5 months before mods and trading and 3 months before Barbarian. We would spend these months either pushing or resetting with little reward for doing either.

Now we have so, so much more, and we spend it complaining about having something, anything to do that can actually show some progress to getting stronger. Think about how easy this game is now, Marcos didn't hit floor 999 until after mods and trading, lots of people didn't start resetting until after mod and one map floors. You think your game is a grind now? At least we can now do something that gives us a chance at having some progress even if it is easier than top Onslaught floor grinding. The best part.....The players asked for this.

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i disagree running c4 in c8 gear for 30 hours is "something to do". 

No one asked for a grind that takes thousands of hours in content you have 10x the stats for to get components to farm more components to put together gear.

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Usualy i would SNIP the entire post to keep the thread clean but ... Exgling said it all so i can't add anything elce ... if you have 3 minutes to read it all ... this is exacly how i feel ... i don't think this game should get easier ... 

When you have the Top 100 players (Leaderboard) at Floor 999, that's the moment you konw the game is borring ... if you have Top 10 Players at Floor 500, that's when you know it's an adventure (an on-going process) ... but first read Exglint's reply. Emoji_Monk.png

@Exglint quote:

xD You know the funny part is....all of this. I have apparently been playing so long I got to see people complain about having something to do. Let us rewind the clocks and go back to last March, c5 is endgame, you grind for a little bit and get top end stats on your gear, you have decent or great asc. That's it, you're done. You are afking the hardest content, there is nothing left to grind for, nothing left to do. Trendy puts out c6 an c7. In one day we beat that and got top c7 gear, in one week our entire deck is geared in top c7 gear, in a month our entire selection of heroes have top c7 gear and the deck is using what was referred to as 22.9k relics. At this point in time Xbox still hasn't even received the game yet but the other two platforms already have nothing to do except grind "easy c7" content. Meanwhile, WM got a nerf somewhere in there and the meta changed. Within hours we had a new meta that was able to destroy c7 and we continue to afk c7 because it's literally the only thing to do. Xbox gets the game during the summer which gives them something to do but the rest of us continue to bash our face into the cheese grater that is c7. Shortly after Adept comes out with the Revenge of the Yeti incursion, this lasted all of 2 days before it got boring and literally no rewards (of course Xbox had this map before the other two platforms so they are already done with it). November comes around and each week one tier of Mastery is released, each one is beat in 6 hours. The only tiers that took longer were c6 and c7 taking 12 and 9-10 hours. This brought Dryad into the meta in a big way. Onslaught followed behind on Dec 12th bringing us an endless mode. The push had a wall and floor 114 was a huge goal line since it was very hard to get to and many people couldn't get to floor 65 to even reset. This point was 5 months before mods and trading and 3 months before Barbarian. We would spend these months either pushing or resetting with little reward for doing either.

Now we have so, so much more, and we spend it complaining about having something, anything to do that can actually show some progress to getting stronger. Think about how easy this game is now, Marcos didn't hit floor 999 until after mods and trading, lots of people didn't start resetting until after mod and one map floors. You think your game is a grind now? At least we can now do something that gives us a chance at having some progress even if it is easier than top Onslaught floor grinding. The best part.....The players asked for this.


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Not going to quote [[174624,users]] but you are so right. I was there for part of this. I always say I would rather play Onslaught with all it's flaws that mindless C7 grind for Ascension levels. What was I thinking back then :) Keep working Trendy, and thank you for keeping things interesting :)

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@emilian quote:

Usualy i would SNIP the entire post to keep the thread clean but ... Exgling said it all so i can't add anything elce ... if you have 3 minutes to read it all ... this is exacly how i feel ... i don't think this game should get easier ... 

When you have the Top 100 players (Leaderboard) at Floor 999, that's the moment you konw the game is borring ... if you have Top 10 Players at Floor 500, that's when you know it's an adventure (an on-going process) ... but first read Exglint's reply. Emoji_Monk.png

@Exglint 

they added a lot of incremental component grinding and mod grinding that takes place in content that is in early chaos, when we are farming in late game gear.

This isnt about making the game "easier" no one finds farming mods or rerolls challenging. Restricting progression on low rng drops is not a challenge, its just a time sink. This time sink is done almost entirely afk. We need to waste hundreds of hours waiting for drops to continue progressing. 

Theres nothing fun or challenging about that


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@Exglint quote:

Now we have so, so much more, and we spend it complaining about having something, anything to do that can actually show some progress to getting stronger. Think about how easy this game is now, Marcos didn't hit floor 999 until after mods and trading, lots of people didn't start resetting until after mod and one map floors. You think your game is a grind now? At least we can now do something that gives us a chance at having some progress even if it is easier than top Onslaught floor grinding. The best part.....The players asked for this.

By that logic we also had something to do before. We had people farming c7 for ascension, myself included. Remember when the rank was all about the highest ascension and that was considered progression? Pepperidge Farm remembers. There were plenty of complaining here in the forum about the diversity of maps to farm and how it was boring. Force feed people the same content with different titles and a bunch of glitter also known as grinding isn't what i asked for. Heck i don't remember anyone asking for grind..."hey TE i'm tired of doing c7 over and over for ascension let me just do the same but with a prettier title now".


@emilian quote:

Usualy i would SNIP the entire post to keep the thread clean but ... Exgling said it all so i can't add anything elce ... if you have 3 minutes to read it all ... this is exacly how i feel ... i don't think this game should get easier ... 

When you have the Top 100 players (Leaderboard) at Floor 999, that's the moment you konw the game is borring ... if you have Top 10 Players at Floor 500, that's when you know it's an adventure (an on-going process) ... but first read Exglint's reply. Emoji_Monk.png


Yes let's see how well the game is doing by the minority of players in a specific rank. Let's ignore the other ranks like AP rank, points rank , ascension rank and mastery rank. Let's just grab the onslaught floor rank. On pc alone there's around 500 active players all the time and an average of 1000 players playing DD 2 but sure the opinion of 30-70 players active in the ranking system worth more. I'm glad Lawlta already said they're trying to please both sides, i agree that's the way to go. 

When the mod system came and power transfer became useless i had to throw away 30 PT but you didn't see me here in the forum complaining. Why? Because i knew the new system would help balancing towers, reduce shard grind and make easier for newcomers to understand. I'm all about that. 


@Nigiri_Toro quote:

i disagree running c4 in c8 gear for 30 hours is "something to do". 

No one asked for a grind that takes thousands of hours in content you have 10x the stats for to get components to farm more components to put together gear.

Agree with everything you said lol

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@Exglint quote:

xD You know the funny part is....all of this. I have apparently been playing so long I got to see people complain about having something to do. Let us rewind the clocks and go back to last March, c5 is endgame, you grind for a little bit and get top end stats on your gear, you have decent or great asc. That's it, you're done. You are afking the hardest content, there is nothing left to grind for, nothing left to do. Trendy puts out c6 an c7. In one day we beat that and got top c7 gear, in one week our entire deck is geared in top c7 gear, in a month our entire selection of heroes have top c7 gear and the deck is using what was referred to as 22.9k relics. At this point in time Xbox still hasn't even received the game yet but the other two platforms already have nothing to do except grind "easy c7" content. Meanwhile, WM got a nerf somewhere in there and the meta changed. Within hours we had a new meta that was able to destroy c7 and we continue to afk c7 because it's literally the only thing to do. Xbox gets the game during the summer which gives them something to do but the rest of us continue to bash our face into the cheese grater that is c7. Shortly after Adept comes out with the Revenge of the Yeti incursion, this lasted all of 2 days before it got boring and literally no rewards (of course Xbox had this map before the other two platforms so they are already done with it). November comes around and each week one tier of Mastery is released, each one is beat in 6 hours. The only tiers that took longer were c6 and c7 taking 12 and 9-10 hours. This brought Dryad into the meta in a big way. Onslaught followed behind on Dec 12th bringing us an endless mode. The push had a wall and floor 114 was a huge goal line since it was very hard to get to and many people couldn't get to floor 65 to even reset. This point was 5 months before mods and trading and 3 months before Barbarian. We would spend these months either pushing or resetting with little reward for doing either.

Now we have so, so much more, and we spend it complaining about having something, anything to do that can actually show some progress to getting stronger. Think about how easy this game is now, Marcos didn't hit floor 999 until after mods and trading, lots of people didn't start resetting until after mod and one map floors. You think your game is a grind now? At least we can now do something that gives us a chance at having some progress even if it is easier than top Onslaught floor grinding. The best part.....The players asked for this.

I get that this is supposed to be a grindy game, but excessive grind is tedious, not challenging. Even if it's better than it was in the past, when there was no reason to grind at all, that doesn't mean it's good now. It just means it's less lame.

The answer to content droughts isn't to put in systems where you get a chance at an incremental upgrade every ten+ hours of active gameplay.

I think the devs are moving the game in the right direction, and have been for the last several updates, but the game certainly isn't in a good place right now.

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@PHPH quote:

I think the devs are moving the game in the right direction, and have been for the last several updates, but the game certainly isn't in a good place right now.

I agree, things can always be better, but this thread is targeting mod rerolls, something we just got and in less than a week are already crying wolf about chances at getting certain mod qualities. Unless I'm missing something I do not believe it possible to have already gotten over 1000 tokens to get a halfway decent look at chances much less 5000 or 10k. 

Lawlta said Trendy is looking into it so that's great but I notice that every patch is always this knee jerk reaction from the community and they haven't had the time to do the requisite testing on the thing yet. 

@Whatever Gunwitch quote:

By that logic we also had something to do before. We had people farming c7 for ascension, myself included. Remember when the rank was all about the highest ascension and that was considered progression? 

That also had an end, once you had enough asc to fill out every talent (I had this) the game was done. Now you are just going for a higher number (leaderboard) than anyone else, but the game was over you win. Same concept as floors, once you are done resetting and have asc to fill out the increased talent caps, game done, what else are you going to do? Climb floors till you are the highest, they are doing this now, it has no point there is no reward, you gain nothing from it. The "progression" we have now is get max c8 and max mods, this is the only thing that hasn't been reached, it does require grinding for either materials or gold to buy them, but once you have your powers and talent caps the only thing you can do is get stronger.

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Y'know, after some thinking, I'm not really going to break my back over hunting perfect mods. In fact I think I can live with the grind there. To me the real problem is AP there. Let say I got all the perfect mods. I'm not going make use of them anyway. My gear gets reset and I definitely not going to upgrade those relics if I'm having a shortage of mats, and gold/def medals either. I'll just do the regular Gear Score progression.

And really, I actually dig the days back then. As I've said at another thread. I prefer after experiencing the update, the stuff we do next preps us for the next update/content/challenge. Also, having events too would help.

I would agree that AP does keep us busy, and I'm ok with that. What I don't like is that it cripples us till the point that we couldn't do other content that we want but continue into the reset loop as it will take a while to get back up.

What if Onslaught have a main progression AND Ancient Power progression as in when we invoke AP, we have the option of how many characters out of all our hero cards we want to be reset. You can reset all if you want to but the point is to leave us some for the main progression. AP heroes couldn't be used for Main Progression nor Main Progression Heroes could be used for AP. Of course how asc reset would still be the same.  Now with that way, AP wouldn't be so punishing as there is still progression but we could also enjoy the game with what us the players has amassed with our loot instead of losing them.

To those who think that I could use Main Progression loots to power boost AP heroes, the solution could be that AP Onslaught only drops ancient gear that's strictly only have to do with AP heroes, they cannot use Main Progression gear. Of course, mods from Ancient Gear can be transferred to regular gear and vice versa.

Until that happens or something is done with loot reset aspect. I feel the whole mods reroll stuff is not much of a big deal to me as of now.

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quick question on relating to reroll. for those with c8 relic, are you still able to reroll the mods with the c7 tokens? or does it requires a non-existent c8 pristine token?

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@Exglint quote:


@PHPH quote:

I think the devs are moving the game in the right direction, and have been for the last several updates, but the game certainly isn't in a good place right now.

I agree, things can always be better, but this thread is targeting mod rerolls, something we just got and in less than a week are already crying wolf about chances at getting certain mod qualities. Unless I'm missing something I do not believe it possible to have already gotten over 1000 tokens to get a halfway decent look at chances much less 5000 or 10k. 

Lawlta said Trendy is looking into it so that's great but I notice that every patch is always this knee jerk reaction from the community and they haven't had the time to do the requisite testing on the thing yet. 

@Whatever Gunwitch quote:

By that logic we also had something to do before. We had people farming c7 for ascension, myself included. Remember when the rank was all about the highest ascension and that was considered progression? 

That also had an end, once you had enough asc to fill out every talent (I had this) the game was done. Now you are just going for a higher number (leaderboard) than anyone else, but the game was over you win. Same concept as floors, once you are done resetting and have asc to fill out the increased talent caps, game done, what else are you going to do? Climb floors till you are the highest, they are doing this now, it has no point there is no reward, you gain nothing from it. The "progression" we have now is get max c8 and max mods, this is the only thing that hasn't been reached, it does require grinding for either materials or gold to buy them, but once you have your powers and talent caps the only thing you can do is get stronger.

We don't need 1k tokens to understand the chances are insanely low. Why? Because multiple people reporting that after 100 tokens the best they've seen is a 6, you can clearly understand it's not a problem of luck nor is a problem or 'mah 10/10'. Literally anything 7+ has a VERY low chance.

Also the whole argument from your previous post it's pretty ludicrous. The community never asked for more grind, they asked for content. A game should be fun to play and engaging, if said game it's unable to do that it will, at some point, die. And the steam numbers tell a pretty clear story.

For example while i'm writing this, I'm stuck at afking c2 because I need Encroaching Flames for my flame auras and plain motes to upgrade some mods to 'ADAPT' to the balance (since I has to re-do my whole setup) .

This is not content, this is a chore.


@LAWLTA quote:

We've got a middle ground coming, a phase 3 (though it's smaller than phase 2), that should sate both of the desires from users on both ends of this topic. :)

Thank you, I hope for the best. (:

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@envizion quote:

quick question on relating to reroll. for those with c8 relic, are you still able to reroll the mods with the c7 tokens? or does it requires a non-existent c8 pristine token?

It uses the pristine tokens just costs twice as much motes and gold


@giux quote:

We don't need 1k tokens to understand the chances are insanely low. Why? Because multiple people reporting that after 100 tokens the best they've seen is a 6, you can clearly understand it's not a problem of luck nor is a problem or 'mah 10/10'. Literally anything 7+ has a VERY low chance.

Also the whole argument from your previous post it's pretty ludicrous. The community never asked for more grind, they asked for content. A game should be fun to play and engaging, if said game it's unable to do that it will, at some point, die. And the steam numbers tell a pretty clear story.

For example while i'm writing this, I'm stuck at afking c2 because I need Encroaching Flames for my flame auras and plain motes to upgrade some mods to 'ADAPT' to the balance (since I has to re-do my whole setup) .

Multiple people have also reported getting a max roll in the first 1-3 tries, did you calculate for them? The best and frankly only way to get a good set of data is to have one person do it all or even better have a few people each do the same number of rolls, not by taking random numbers from random people which will only lead to a mess of data from unconfirmed sets. I've rolled 6-8 times and there is nothing stopping me from saying I've rolled 150 times and gotten nothing above 5, it is common for people, especially on the forums, to blow their statistics way out of proportion, which can be seen on literally any "Shard rng unfair" thread.

If this game is due to die because of lack of content then we surely would have died already, we are not going to die with this much to do tbh, we spend months not dying with only 4 maps to do in c7. We are fine right now.

Adaptation to balance passes can be seen in any game. Take any MMORPG that isn't WoW, if they have a character class that's too powerful and lots of people play it and they nerf it to less than another character, then large amounts of people have to start a whole new character and take it through content they have already done and is very boring. I have done this a few times, the story quests to level suck. WoW is the only one to make this not a thing anymore with their insta level system, and what do we get with that? Nubs playing high level characters they know nothing about dragging everyone else down.

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