Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
hypnotoad100

Nerfing CC is nerfing strategy

Recommended Posts


@Haven quote:


@Martin Arcainess quote:

It's not less strategy but more a change of strategy since we can no longer use CC as much so we need to think of another way to use our defenses.  So to say Nerfing CC is nerfing strategy is not correct.

If it changes strategy and removes CC as a strategy, I don't understand how that's not nerfing strategy? Currently meta is get as high as dps as you can on your defenses then hope it's good enough for the floor. Last update if WM were not in the game it'd be a game of chess of how many different things you can do with lanes, now it's checkers with wm nerfed and cc as a whole. Pretty boring right now.

CC hasn't been removed. Just nerfed/changed so the use of it has changend. We can still use CC as a stratgey but not the same way as before. So yeah I guess some ways you can say the stragetic way of using CC been nerfed but not stragey itself.


But yeah DR effecting all effects is a bit meh.  


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Martin Arcainess quote:

CC hasn't been removed. Just nerfed/changed so the use of it has changend. We can still use CC as a stratgey but not the same way as before. So yeah I guess some ways you can say the stragetic way of using CC been nerfed but not stragey itself.


But yeah DR effecting all effects is a bit meh.  


CC is removed after 7s, yes technically it's not 'removed' but if you change all tower damage to 1dps, dps isn't removed, it's still in the game you'll be fine. DR is a terrible idea and should only apply to Shocking Revelations if at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Exglint quote:


@SugarRushx quote:

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players. 

you're seriously killing your own game.

If the game is balanced around high level gameplay then you are balancing around the top 5% which means the bottom 95% are not getting what they need. That sounds like it will demolish the game if they stop thinking about the average player. By balancing the game around those who are average, ie. around floor 50-100 they are ensuring that the masses stay with the game, thus keeping a decent population. We can't afford to ask for balance around 10 people in the total number of 600 on steam, especially considering the two consoles are confirmed to have even more players at the average level and even less at high level. This total would be balancing for the 20 players up there and ignoring the 3k+ that are not. They are keeping the game alive by making it possible for many strategies to make their way to maps rather than rolfstomping everything with a single strategy.

Now I highlighted this word for a reason for everyone else in the thread.

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

#NailedIt

Trendy is where they should be for patching and content.  They are not catering to one group of players.  I believe as well they need to refine DR but not remove it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Kambien quote:


@Exglint quote:


@SugarRushx quote:

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players. 

you're seriously killing your own game.

If the game is balanced around high level gameplay then you are balancing around the top 5% which means the bottom 95% are not getting what they need. That sounds like it will demolish the game if they stop thinking about the average player. By balancing the game around those who are average, ie. around floor 50-100 they are ensuring that the masses stay with the game, thus keeping a decent population. We can't afford to ask for balance around 10 people in the total number of 600 on steam, especially considering the two consoles are confirmed to have even more players at the average level and even less at high level. This total would be balancing for the 20 players up there and ignoring the 3k+ that are not. They are keeping the game alive by making it possible for many strategies to make their way to maps rather than rolfstomping everything with a single strategy.

Now I highlighted this word for a reason for everyone else in the thread.

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

#NailedIt

Trendy is where they should be for patching and content.  They are not catering to one group of players.  I believe as well they need to refine DR but not remove it.

Didn't really nail anything except for the one in the coffin. Balancing around the majority of people (chaos 7) you can use anything at that level, this is a horrible idea and a terrible argument. You don't need to kill the top level players to make the normies happy. I always open arms to anyone to change my mind on discord if they're capable of continuing the conversation past 1 line of text but that usually never happens.

Haven#1279

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@giux quote:

i) For people at floor <100, this patch doesn't change a thing. You can still wm spam like you used to, so clearly it wasn't even aimed at them.

Ummm I don't WM spam.  I actually barely use it. >.< LOL  But I tend to not go with the current meta's.  Being creative and finding other equally powerful, or more powerful avenues, is more exciting.



@Haven quote:

Didn't really nail anything except for the one in the coffin. Balancing around the majority of people (chaos 7) you can use anything at that level, this is a horrible idea and a terrible argument. You don't need to kill the top level players to make the normies happy. I always open arms to anyone to change my mind on discord if they're capable of continuing the conversation past 1 line of text but that usually never happens.

Haven#1279

The issue here is they, in my own painted words, catered to the top level players in the past.  The other 90% of the player base stagnated behind those that were not in the top ten percent.  It's one thing to have end game, it's another to make all features available to all players.  

I also believe that this thread is great FEEDBACK for Trendy to read.  Being of the mindset that DR is not a bad thing.  It's welcoming.  I would venture to say that of the top players you mention were only spamming WM and very little, if anything, else.  DR calls out players who don't prepare multiple defenses.  Onslaught >100 does the same.  It combined is a great thing, in my opinion.  

This being said, top level players are calling out DR too early.  Let them tweak it.  DR should have multiple diminishing returns so DR's stack.  Such as stun is not the same as slow which is not the same as electrocute.  Each should have it's own unique DR to become resisted/resistable.

Before calling patches out in how they should be applied to "normies" vs "top level" players the door needs to be accessible from both directions.  The greatest games did this.  Trendy is working on making this experience and opportunity great for us, not just a narrow window.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Kambien quote:


@giux quote:

i) For people at floor <100, this patch doesn't change a thing. You can still wm spam like you used to, so clearly it wasn't even aimed at them.

Ummm I don't WM spam.  I actually barely use it. >.< LOL  But I tend to not go with the current meta's.  Being creative and finding other equally powerful, or more powerful avenues, is more exciting.



It's obvious you don't use WM because you wouldn't be taking this stance.

@Kambien quote:
@Haven quote:

Didn't really nail anything except for the one in the coffin. Balancing around the majority of people (chaos 7) you can use anything at that level, this is a horrible idea and a terrible argument. You don't need to kill the top level players to make the normies happy. I always open arms to anyone to change my mind on discord if they're capable of continuing the conversation past 1 line of text but that usually never happens.

Haven#1279

The issue here is they, in my own painted words, catered to the top level players in the past.  The other 90% of the player base stagnated behind those that were not in the top ten percent.  It's one thing to have end game, it's another to make all features available to all players.  

Catering to the top level players is what you're suppose to do. 90% others didn't stagnate at all actually, bottom 90% was and is just fine, it always will be. I'm not going to live in a world where we balance around the people that ask for carries that's a horrible place to stand by and I disagree with anyone that suggests this. Anything can be used in chaos except maybe water geysers as a main defense.

@Kambien quote:

I also believe that this thread is great FEEDBACK for Trendy to read.  Being of the mindset that DR is not a bad thing.  It's welcoming.  I would venture to say that of the top players you mention were only spamming WM and very little, if anything, else.  DR calls out players who don't prepare multiple defenses.  Onslaught >100 does the same.  It combined is a great thing, in my opinion.  

What you have to understand is, people were spamming WM because it's a REQUIREMENT to push very high. This isn't a perfect example however there is a reason no one at the top of the leaderboard is moving far. 7 seconds until no stuns against bosses with 1b+ hp.. come on. DR calls out anyone who uses CC ever, that's another BS claim because this didn't hurt wm this hit everything that does crowd control, in this game that's a lot of nerfs.


@Kambien quote:

This being said, top level players are calling out DR too early.  Let them tweak it.  DR should have multiple diminishing returns so DR's stack.  Such as stun is not the same as slow which is not the same as electrocute.  Each should have it's own unique DR to become resisted/resistable.

No, DR isn't being called out too early. If they cannot play the game because of an update or their relics they spent 100s of millions of gold on are now absolutely useless, there's going to be an outcry and for a good reason. We're not arguing what the possibilities of DR could be, we're arguing what it is. What it is right now is absolutely terrible for the game.  I'm not going to discuss what DR should be as I could spend all day on this topic. DD2 Isn't ready for a big change like DR because the game was already incredibly unbalanced before it came in and now it's going to be a nightmare to balance around.

@Kambien quote:

Before calling patches out in how they should be applied to "normies" vs "top level" players the door needs to be accessible from both directions.  The greatest games did this.  Trendy is working on making this experience and opportunity great for us, not just a narrow window.

The patch is being called out because the balance changes are garbage, there's not much more too it. Like I stated before, you don't need to kill the top players experience to make the normal players experience good. DD2 has a place for grinders like myself in onslaught and a place for casuals in chaos. You don't need to kill either parties to balance this game. But to choose chaos 7 > onslaught, your most dedicated players with the best balance ideas is just a complete joke. The people asking for carries are not going to get priority balance over old players that love and know the games ins and outs, that's ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that elemental combos are live and being worked on, just remove shocking revelation. The fact that you can have shocking rev and water servo on the WM means it's still the go to tower of choice for everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Kambien quote:

Ummm I don't WM spam.  I actually barely use it. >.< LOL  But I tend to not go with the current meta's.  Being creative and finding other equally powerful, or more powerful avenues, is more exciting.

Anything equal powerfull tp the meta means it's the meta as the meta is the most powerful setup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Martin Arcainess quote:


@Kambien quote:

Ummm I don't WM spam.  I actually barely use it. >.< LOL  But I tend to not go with the current meta's.  Being creative and finding other equally powerful, or more powerful avenues, is more exciting.

Anything equal powerfull tp the meta means it's the meta as the meta is the most powerful setup.

Depends on your point of view. Meta is the easiest way to progress? Meta is the most powerful? Meta is simply “everyone’s doing it”.  Very different things that occur in DD2 all the time. It’s fun surprising folks who join and are shocked to see no WM. 

My two cents. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Kambien quote:


@Martin Arcainess quote:


@Kambien quote:

Ummm I don't WM spam.  I actually barely use it. >.< LOL  But I tend to not go with the current meta's.  Being creative and finding other equally powerful, or more powerful avenues, is more exciting.

Anything equal powerfull tp the meta means it's the meta as the meta is the most powerful setup.

Depends on your point of view. Meta is the easiest way to progress? Meta is the most powerful? Meta is simply “everyone’s doing it”.  Very different things that occur in DD2 all the time. It’s fun surprising folks who join and are shocked to see no WM. 

My two cents. 」


But Meta isn't a point of view. It what it is. Generally the most powerful set up is what the meta. What is best to use right down to the smallest T. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meta=best and no cc defenses are meta anymore. For me its just basic flame aura/lsa stacking. Boring, no skill involved and works best for me now. Sadly.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...