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hypnotoad100

Nerfing CC is nerfing strategy

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By nerfing the cc aspect of the game, Trendy has also nerfed the strategy aspect of this game.  


Before, when considering a unique onslaught lane, I would ask myself, "Which mobs are the problem?  How can I take advantage of the lane shape and length?  Where is the best place to put a kill box?  Where is the chokepoint?  Can I share defenses here with another lane?  Can I build cc in a way that causes them to bottleneck?  How much DU can I save in this lane by building less damage and more cc?  How should I deal with slow immune mobs?  What if I slow the others so I can kill the slow immune ones first so that I don't hit the ten target limit?  What if I purposely do less damage to the slow moving lava dude so he doesn't die and instead stops enemies behind him from progressing down the lane so fast?  How can I save DU on these Flyers that also fly over a ground lane?  Can I cc both air and ground with the same defense?  How much cc do I actually need?  Should I use hard cc since Gnash is less resistant to stuns or should I use slows since Griblok is highly resistant to them?  What cc will work against Bastille Master?  What cc should I use against Yeti?  What if they're both in the same lane?  Should I use the stun fire shard?  What about the oil spill shard?  Should I use boost aura for bonus damage or to slow?  Or a combination of both?  Where should I place it?  I could go on.

Now, I only have to ask myself, "Which mobs are the problem?  Do I have enough damage?"


That's it.  Choose the right defense and craft the right relic to deal maximum damage.  Four seconds of hard cc from WM or some other stun combo plus damage.  Is your lane leaking?  Just add more damage.  The unique physical characteristics of a lane don't matter anymore.  Just add damage in the form of an aura or tower.  Lanes could be rectangles of varying lengths and tower choice wouldn't change much.

So why does it matter?  High onslaught became more similar to campaign and mastery where it was less about gear and more about strategy.  If you, as the reader, enjoyed those two parts of the game then you should know that diminishing returns has robbed you of that type of current or future enjoyment in high onslaught.  If things remain as they are then high onslaught will only be based on grinding for highly specific gear with a demeaned sense of strategy.  Oh, you can't beat a floor?  Just leave, grind for better gear, and try again.  Your cc build is already optimal so what else is there to try?  That is the solution that diminishing returns is giving us.


If you are pushing floors just fine then let me ask you, how much thinking is involved in your building strategy right now?  Are you putting as much thought into your build strategy as was needed for mastery?

Elemental builds are fun and I am having fun exploring them but the cost to the enjoyment of the game as a whole is too high in my opinion.  

My request to Trendy is that diminishing returns only apply to elemental combos until these issues are sorted out.  

To the onslaught climbers, I would especially appreciate your feedback.

Thanks

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Well, well, I won't lie, haven't played a single game after update, but I heard enough and seen enough of other climbers to have some input.

So while I totally agree with 90% of the post, all the valid points imo, not much to add, just pure DPS race, to kill enemies before DR kicks in, neither creative or fun, if considering cheapest AoE electrocute applying defense, you're again left with very little choice. So agreeing on all that.


And there comes the suggestion:

"My request to Trendy is that diminishing returns only apply to elemental combos until these issues are sorted out.  "

Well, if that happened without tweaking weapon manufacturer, it'd become again monstrosity which it used to be, if set right, leading to lanes being almost permastunned and again leaving all other defenses far behind utility wise (aka every onslaught I visited, used weapon manufacturers, wheter it was floor 50, 150 or 300...).
But that's just me, everyone knows I'm not a fan of WM being solution to everthing.

Can't offer any good alternative changes ideas for stuns/slows and DR issues, leaving this part to ppl who played after update.

But for now, looking forward to reasonable tweak, which wont create another defense above every other but will let ppl play around and be effective at it on high floors.

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I agree with everything you've mentioned Hypnotoad. I remember my first climb through the chaos tiers when they were first introduced, where my relics were severely under powered. I couldn't brute force my way through so I started experimenting with CC. I initially struggled in C7 and discovered proton beams and oil geysers were a lot of fun but situational, as you have pointed out.

In its current state, diminishing returns is definitely worrying. Until we see more elemental combos to experience with that introduce other CC options, I'm going to put my high floor onslaught dreams on hold.

I would also be interested in hearing how the high onslaught climbers are dealing with diminishing returns as supposedly their builds should still be viable with these changes? 


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I tried everything on my first Omega Wave and its impossible. I dont know if im doing something wrong, but the walls being useless in a tower defence game is a joke, really. I dont have enough CC to stop all the bosses.

Also i feel that i'm beeing forced to use WM, cause its the only defence i see in the entire game. I like using Earthshatters as my main defence but there is no elemental combos for earth element and the AOE damage sucks on high floors. Im not enjoing this game anymore because I cant use what i want to.

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@hypnotoad100 quote:
By nerfing the cc aspect of the game, Trendy has also nerfed the strategy aspect of this game.  

It's a bit of a stretch to promote "stunlock everything" as genuine "strategy".

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I think its best we all wait for the next wave of elemental combos. They only touched the water mod and made it to drench and it's good. Who knows what else they will do to the remaining elements. I am hoping they make some combos that buffs damage output since we've lost most cc builds. Some towers really needs some straight damage buffs.


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I loved this meta, it was so interesting to me. The way you combined buffs with cc and damage was really enjoyable. It reminds me of oldschool wc3 tds where you used frost+poison to slow the enemies and built mazes so that they would walk for a really long time in your killzone.

There is limited power in this game in the form of item upgrade(c8 5/5), shards, ascension levels and mods. Once you've reached that point of MAX you cannot go higher. The problem with this patch is it took your limit of max and brought it down. Even if you hadn't reached your limit yet you felt you could climb higher and now you can't. Even if people think that stunning everything is cheesy there's gonna come a time when you can't kill things fast enough and the target limit is going to make you lose.(and/or frost orcs)

Something in this patch would have to be huge to cancel out the diminishing returns nerf to change gameplay but still not make players feel like they lost power and neither the blockade buff(couple DU here and there and some hp wow) or elemental combos(literally no new combos, just the ability for towers to drench) achieved that goal. Now we're left with a huge nerf and it feels bad.

EDIT: Isn't the point of this RPG game to evolve your deck and become stronger, upgrade everything to max, get max ap, max mods, gilded shards and see how far you can go in an endless climb? So why nerf stuff that overperforms to the point it is useless instead of buff things that are underperforming?(stuff like dryad a few months ago, boom mods, fissures and cc this patch. and I'm not talking about balance around c7, it's all about high onslaught)

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As a decently high onslaught climber (160 rn), I 100% agree. Stacking dps doesn't make it fun nor has any type of skill involved into it. Before you could get to 280+ without any c8 medallions if you were smart and knew enough about the game to use the right combinations of cc,towers etc Even frostbite tower got literally shot down in power, how are we supposed to deal with headstrong? Just raw dps will always be the answer.

Onslaught with Dim Ret has become just a difficult and expensive chore, very sad.

I understand Dim Ret needs to exists, but killing cc as a concept will make this game very uninteresting pretty fast.

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okay to put in my slight input, i played since when you had to buy the game faithfully up until abuut a month after harbinger came out. and recently returned almoster 4 months ago now. since the beginning its been a farm fest and a horrible chore to play dd2. But that tower defense/hero defense aspect is what has made dd2 fun. But honestly, im not speaking horrible on trendy staff i know their trying to do what "they believe should be balanced" but do you guys actually play the game to a certain point that we do", before you impliment these changes? First off, i could care less about diminishing returns, your worst.. and i mean worst nerf was those fissures. first off there a trap, their places closes just like all other traps, but because players found out what works for them to climb you completely nerf it beyond oblivion. Now , honestly Lavamancer as a whole hero you might as well, just remove him from the game. hes is useless now is more ways than any other hero. Using him as a Dps is horrible whether hero damage or ability power, his other defenses are just HORRID. his right click, skills is beyond useless and just .. Really? who designed him. his first skill is just.. cmon.. just reallyy... matter of fact. all his skills as just bad, lets just go with that. fissure was the only reason people used lavamancer, unless you count using volcano just for fun. you claimed and even said, you based these nerfs off of what high onsl players were using. So therefore you literally nerfed every single thing that they found .. that worked. from fissues, to frost tower, wm/cc. you put in dr as an excuse just to nerf wms. if your honestly gonna Nerf something or ANYTHING.. that has been an issue. hero damage monk needs a serious and HUGE NERF. but noone likes to get on that subject. instead of making other defenses better you only nerfed the ones that were working, despite the ones who farmed and or bought the perfect mods they finally needed for that defense, hundreds of hours. You should give love to the heroes who needs it, mystic/squire/adept(especially hailstorm). initiate/LAVAMANCER. Might as well honestly put in a word to nerf hd monk so more diverse dps heroes can come out. ive actually gone back and looked at the updates and patches you guys put out that had players leaving the game right after, back b4 i quit the game was thriving.. now its barely 800 players or less on each platform, and after the latest patch, its getting lower. i love this game I really do. But you are seriously Killing your own game, for the measly 2,000? players that actually play it.

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this is around the time i quit playing because of nerfs to traps and frosties wayy back then right after harbinger. and it gets worse from there.

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.. still on the decline now.

the small players who enjoy this game now, will soon have noone to play with , or competition.

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players.

its just ridiculous.

Im not bashing you guys, Just want you to understand theres still players like me who will still stick around and try to keep playing the game. we do hope you read all these posts and make changes. your seriously killing your own game.

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Crowd control was lost so that blockades would be used again. Blockades are now our crowd control solution. But the problem is enemies can one shot blockades at high onslaught floors and blockades still feels like waste of DU. If cc remains this way, then they still need to buff the heck out of blockades.

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@Cuddles quote:


@hypnotoad100 quote:
By nerfing the cc aspect of the game, Trendy has also nerfed the strategy aspect of this game.  

It's a bit of a stretch to promote "stunlock everything" as genuine "strategy".

You're right, I would never promote "stunlock everything" as genuine "strategy"

Are you aware that there is a ten target limit to all damage dealing defenses?  In order to stunlock a mob, you would require three nodes to simultaneously hit it.  Therefore, in a basic 80 mob lane you would need 24 nodes.  Assuming you could place 24 nodes in sets of three without overlapping then you would need at least 3 WMs with 24 nodes totaling to 810 DU.  All I can say is good luck with your other lanes.

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@Scorpion449 quote:

Crowd control was lost so that blockades would be used again. Blockades are now our crowd control solution. But the problem is enemies can one shot blockades at high onslaught floors and blockades still feels like waste of DU. If cc remains this way, then they still need to buff the heck out of blockades.

Blockades should buy time for the player, so we could concern about other lanes while some blockade is actually "blocking" the lane haha. But in DD2 every mob can just destroy even a Maw of Earthdrake really fast, so its useless.

Also we have the Assassins wich are really strong at high Oslaught floors, they will disable you, and u dont have anything to save time for you, so you lose.

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@hypnotoad100 quote:

You're right, I would never promote "stunlock everything" as genuine "strategy"

Well that's... Essentially what you're doing. 

We lost the ability to essentially bring everything to a halt for long periods of time with cookie cutter builds and now suddenly the game has no strategy? 

The game hasn't gained or lost any amount of strategy. We've just replaced cramming more cc for success with cramming more damage for success. There's not really a whole lot of difference at the end of the day and neither is particularly "strategic". 

We'll most likely be seeing more wall buffs and more cc options anyway.

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@SugarRushx quote:

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players. 

you're seriously killing your own game.

If the game is balanced around high level gameplay then you are balancing around the top 5% which means the bottom 95% are not getting what they need. That sounds like it will demolish the game if they stop thinking about the average player. By balancing the game around those who are average, ie. around floor 50-100 they are ensuring that the masses stay with the game, thus keeping a decent population. We can't afford to ask for balance around 10 people in the total number of 600 on steam, especially considering the two consoles are confirmed to have even more players at the average level and even less at high level. This total would be balancing for the 20 players up there and ignoring the 3k+ that are not. They are keeping the game alive by making it possible for many strategies to make their way to maps rather than rolfstomping everything with a single strategy.

Now I highlighted this word for a reason for everyone else in the thread.

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

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@Exglint quote:


@SugarRushx quote:

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players. 

you're seriously killing your own game.

If the game is balanced around high level gameplay then you are balancing around the top 5% which means the bottom 95% are not getting what they need. That sounds like it will demolish the game if they stop thinking about the average player. By balancing the game around those who are average, ie. around floor 50-100 they are ensuring that the masses stay with the game, thus keeping a decent population. We can't afford to ask for balance around 10 people in the total number of 600 on steam, especially considering the two consoles are confirmed to have even more players at the average level and even less at high level. This total would be balancing for the 20 players up there and ignoring the 3k+ that are not. They are keeping the game alive by making it possible for many strategies to make their way to maps rather than rolfstomping everything with a single strategy.

Now I highlighted this word for a reason for everyone else in the thread.

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

Balancing around top level play should and is seen in almost every game that has a decent balance team. It's what's best for the game. You can get away with using any defense at low level play, to balance around what they use would be nonsense. 

and for the final quote the only failure I see were the balance changes. WM and CC is used because you have to use it in high omega waves. Good thing blockades replaced cc for us now that trees are 5 cheaper.


@Cuddles quote:


@hypnotoad100 quote:

You're right, I would never promote "stunlock everything" as genuine "strategy"

Well that's... Essentially what you're doing. 

We lost the ability to essentially bring everything to a halt for long periods of time with cookie cutter builds and now suddenly the game has no strategy? 

The game hasn't gained or lost any amount of strategy. We've just replaced cramming more cc for success with cramming more damage for success. There's not really a whole lot of difference at the end of the day and neither is particularly "strategic". 

We'll most likely be seeing more wall buffs and more cc options anyway.

In the original post Toad made you can see a lot of what was lost. CC is needed or some way to stop omegawave bosses at high floors so you can dps longer is a requirement, not a want. Could you imagine if flame auras were op and instead of nerfing flame auras they released "Diminishing Damage" and all damage was cut in half after 5s. Yeah, if they did that everyone defending the patch notes now would be pissed off. Atleast they would still be able to do damage after 5 seconds though unlike CC. Nothing was gained after this update many defenses are nerfed, lost or unusable now, the balance change was questionable at best. For the more buffs part of your message, don't you think it's a bit unhealthy to take away what allowed us to push high and then replace it with nothing and rely on them to replace it 3months from now if we're lucky? 

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Ok I'll just say this , most of the players defending this patch seem to think that high onslaught is only placing wm and calling it a day 

This is not the case at all, there are more cc defenses out there ! I can name 7 that were actually used in high onslaught. This DR patch affects them ALL !! So stop only quoting WM

All of these defenses are now completely useless !!! Because DR stacks too fast !! 

(seems unintended according to LAWLTA)

DR in it s current state just cripples the build strategies 


@Exglint quote:

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

Oh yhea we did design a new strategy already 

Spoiler alert it requires ***load of 5/5 c8 relics and max mods, because raw dammage spam is the only thing working 

Guess what ? Need 3 antis stacking to even think about climbing at some point  ;) 

Then you have the imbalance between towers , great strategy 

Use flamme aura over fissure or fail , great strategical decision ;)

Do not use bee because the AI is ***ed up, great strategical decision ;)

Avoid cc defenses because DR stacks too fast ! (the more you climb the more this holds true) 

So much strategy !!!! 

I love this new meta of  spam defenses that have the most dps (because raw damage is king). Wouldn't be as bad if defenses were somewhat equal in power. 

Anyway gratz Exglint, your best defense is now meta since it is the best wave clear ! (that you can spam) 

*round of applause*

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@Exglint quote:


@SugarRushx quote:

your patches and updates, need to come from a balance team who plays at the high level of current players. 

you're seriously killing your own game.

If the game is balanced around high level gameplay then you are balancing around the top 5% which means the bottom 95% are not getting what they need. That sounds like it will demolish the game if they stop thinking about the average player. By balancing the game around those who are average, ie. around floor 50-100 they are ensuring that the masses stay with the game, thus keeping a decent population. We can't afford to ask for balance around 10 people in the total number of 600 on steam, especially considering the two consoles are confirmed to have even more players at the average level and even less at high level. This total would be balancing for the 20 players up there and ignoring the 3k+ that are not. They are keeping the game alive by making it possible for many strategies to make their way to maps rather than rolfstomping everything with a single strategy.

Now I highlighted this word for a reason for everyone else in the thread.

Strategy - a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

The only way anyone can stop strategy is to stop thinking about how to do something. The moment Diminishing Returns entered the game players started thinking of ways to use everything else that was changing or coming to continue beating floors, they are creating strategies. You cannot nerf this, you cannot take this away. Thomas Edison said "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

I'm sorry but this is an appeal to popularity fallacy.  What you are saying is "Balance should be aimed towards people from floor 50-100 because they are more in number".

i) For people at floor <100, this patch doesn't change a thing. You can still wm spam like you used to, so clearly it wasn't even aimed at them.

ii) Every game developer should aim to make endgame as appealing as possible to make casuals and hardcore gamers alike, try to climb to that farsighted final objective. Not many people are gonna stick around and grind on mid levels if all the players that have more experience and climbed very high are saying that it's literally impossible to get through that final objective. It's just demoralizing!

Also, I know everyone likes to think cc = wm but that's very far from the truth. WM was just the op one, but we used to mix up PDTs,frostbites, cannons with stun fire etc Now this is all gone, if you wanna actually climb the only important thing now is to stack dps, and that is not only boring but also VERY expensive.

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@giux quote:

Every game developer should aim to make endgame as appealing as possible to make casuals and hardcore gamers alike, try to climb to that farsighted final objective. Not many people are gonna stick around and grind on mid levels if all the players that have more experience and climbed very high are saying that it's literally impossible to get through that final objective. It's just demoralizing!

What is the farsighted final objective?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark (not so dark) and say the answer is most likely floor 999, which is pretty funny honestly. The reason this is so funny is we were never intended to reach that floor in the first place, so setting a goal there is setting yourself up for failure.

Tbh, Onslaught isn't endgame, never was intended to be, it was the replacement "Endless mode" meaning to not have an end or finish line. Once upon a time Chaos 7 was endgame, and before that Chaos 5 was endgame, but they were never intended to be the final resting place of the finish line.

I agree though, Trendy should get some focus on endgame, some mode that is ultra hard and very satisfying to beat. What do you want that to be? DR does exactly that, beat your floor and you will feel like the god of DD2 because you did something others are crying about right now. My current goal is to climb as far as I can with only one hero, would that make me feel good to beat a high floor, yes very much so, because I did something literally no one else is doing right now. Everyone is so concerned with climbing to the highest possible floor because they think that makes them good at the game or fulfills something within them, I get the same feeling when I do single hero, I just don't have a leaderboard for it to showoff (not that I can appear on the leaderboard anyways, I've told them to remove me and keep me off it).

Trendy knows they can't put an endgame flag down on anything because once its here it will be studied, optimized, and eventually afk'ed, defeating the purpose.

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@Exglint quote:


@giux quote:

Every game developer should aim to make endgame as appealing as possible to make casuals and hardcore gamers alike, try to climb to that farsighted final objective. Not many people are gonna stick around and grind on mid levels if all the players that have more experience and climbed very high are saying that it's literally impossible to get through that final objective. It's just demoralizing!

What is the farsighted final objective?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark (not so dark) and say the answer is most likely floor 999, which is pretty funny honestly. The reason this is so funny is we were never intended to reach that floor in the first place, so setting a goal there is setting yourself up for failure.

Tbh, Onslaught isn't endgame, never was intended to be, it was the replacement "Endless mode" meaning to not have an end or finish line. Once upon a time Chaos 7 was endgame, and before that Chaos 5 was endgame, but they were never intended to be the final resting place of the finish line.

I agree though, Trendy should get some focus on endgame, some mode that is ultra hard and very satisfying to beat. What do you want that to be? DR does exactly that, beat your floor and you will feel like the god of DD2 because you did something others are crying about right now. My current goal is to climb as far as I can with only one hero, would that make me feel good to beat a high floor, yes very much so, because I did something literally no one else is doing right now. Everyone is so concerned with climbing to the highest possible floor because they think that makes them good at the game or fulfills something within them, I get the same feeling when I do single hero, I just don't have a leaderboard for it to showoff (not that I can appear on the leaderboard anyways, I've told them to remove me and keep me off it).

Trendy knows they can't put an endgame flag down on anything because once its here it will be studied, optimized, and eventually afk'ed, defeating the purpose.

Well the final objective is 999 not only for the sake of climbing but mostly for the 10k ascention you gain from it. This is THE ENDGAME and it was setup by Trendy, what's the point of having a 3m tier 1 Flames Auras if you always do afkable content?

The way Dim Ret is designed is bad because it affects pre-existing content, your reasoning would be good if onslaught were to be resetted. Because now you have people at floor 600+ that got there just because of cc and op wm. So if you make the climb insanely more difficult to make , as a dev trendy is creating an obvious disparity (like it was done with resets)

I get that you have a platform and it's entertaining to see someone climbing low floors with one non-meta hero, but that isn't enjoyable gameplay for most people, that's something you personally enjoy (which is great but doesn't make this patch good).

I am in the leaderboards but I don't really care about it,. My personal objective in the game is getting enough knowledge, really op towers and get as high as I could, I was trying to go 250+ without any c8s which clearly is not possible anymore.

In general, what i'm trying to say is: If Trendy in doing this huge nerfs on how much time & effort you need (first on resets and now on onslaught) just because they don't have any good ideas on how to entertain us, that's just sad. It's already bad that the top 10 most people with AP resets haven't changed in almost 1 year, now onslaught too?

Not to mention, if you are someone like Equmn whose spent countless hours climbing and now is stranded at floor 730, what do you go from there? Seems like a slap in the face to the more dedicated and loyal players (kinda like the mat vault discount).

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The enjoyment that I derive from the game comes from the puzzle aspect.  How do I solve this unique lane?

Let's say you get a lane with berserkers, cyborks, melee goblins, ranged goblins, and some throwers.

The problem:
I decide to start with three WM nodes and press g.  The lane breaks.  I notice that some mobs are walking through with full health.  It turns out that the WM nodes hit their ten target limit and couldn't kill them fast enough before moving on to the next ten.  Here are some solutions that are easy to understand without seeing them.

Solution one:
I notice that the berserkers move faster and reach the kill zone sooner.  What if I put a slow between their spawn and the kill zone?  This will buy time to allow the WM to kill the berserkers before the rest of the wave arrives.

Solution two:
I notice that the cyborks are extremely tanky.  At 200m HP it would take 40s to kill them.  What if I put down a bait trap to slow or stop their progression?

Solution three:
I know that throwers will stop to attack barricades.  What if I place a barricade and reflect beam to the side of the lane before the kill zone?  Throwers and ranged goblins  will stop progressing to attack the barricade.

Solution four:
What if I could cc the tanky units for a long time and instead quickly kill the weaker units?  I set up some relics that specifically target goblins to kill them quickly.  This allows me to stay under the ten target limit.

Solution five:
I notice that the lane gets rather narrow at one point.  What if I stack multiple cc defenses there.  I might be able to jam up the lane by only preventing the few in front from progressing.

In diminishing returns, none of these creative solutions will work because all mobs will eventually break through after about four seconds.  There's no holding one enemy back while killing the other.  The tankiest or fastest unit will always break through.  The only solution is to build one cc combo and then build enough damage to kill it.  It is neither elegant nor interesting.  The nuanced gameplay of juggling different types of mobs is gone.  The strategy will always be the same when diminishing returns makes all cc equal and any additional cc worthless.
1. Deploy any type of hard cc.
2. Identify the most difficult mobs to kill.
3. Use the correct relics to multiply damage against those mobs.

For those who enjoy the strategy aspect of the game, engaging gameplay has been lost here.

The thought process used to be:
Q: Do I want more cc or more damage?  
A: Well what if I try solution one, or two, or three, etc.  Maybe there is a puzzle here to be solved.

Currently, the thought process is this:
Q: Do I have cc yet?  
A: Yes / No
Q: Do I need more damage?  
A: Yes / No

My opinion is that diminishing returns should be applied to the same source or type of cc.  This would allow complexity and creativity in combining different forms of cc but at a clear DU cost.  This would reintroduce the thoughtful process of how it is best to spend DU.  

As a side note.  I consider higher onslaught to be the point at which raw damage cannot overcome lanes within your given DU and mana constraints.  This is different for each person according to their gear.  This is what I would consider endgame and an enjoyable test of your problem solving skills.


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@hypnotoad100 quote:

The enjoyment that I derive from the game comes from the puzzle aspect.  How do I solve this unique lane?

Let's say you get a lane with berserkers, cyborks, melee goblins, ranged goblins, and some throwers.

The problem:
I decide to start with three WM nodes and press g.  The lane breaks.  I notice that some mobs are walking through with full health.  It turns out that the WM nodes hit their ten target limit and couldn't kill them fast enough before moving on to the next ten.  Here are some solutions that are easy to understand without seeing them.

Solution one:
I notice that the berserkers move faster and reach the kill zone sooner.  What if I put a slow between their spawn and the kill zone?  This will buy time to allow the WM to kill the berserkers before the rest of the wave arrives.

Solution two:
I notice that the cyborks are extremely tanky.  At 200m HP it would take 40s to kill them.  What if I put down a bait trap to slow or stop their progression?

Solution three:
I know that throwers will stop to attack barricades.  What if I place a barricade and reflect beam to the side of the lane before the kill zone?  Throwers and ranged goblins  will stop progressing to attack the barricade.

Solution four:
What if I could cc the tanky units for a long time and instead quickly kill the weaker units?  I set up some relics that specifically target goblins to kill them quickly.  This allows me to stay under the ten target limit.

Solution five:
I notice that the lane gets rather narrow at one point.  What if I stack multiple cc defenses there.  I might be able to jam up the lane by only preventing the few in front from progressing.

In diminishing returns, none of these creative solutions will work because all mobs will eventually break through after about four seconds.  There's no holding one enemy back while killing the other.  The tankiest or fastest unit will always break through.  The only solution is to build one cc combo and then build enough damage to kill it.  It is neither elegant nor interesting.  The nuanced gameplay of juggling different types of mobs is gone.  The strategy will always be the same when diminishing returns makes all cc equal and any additional cc worthless.
1. Deploy any type of hard cc.
2. Identify the most difficult mobs to kill.
3. Use the correct relics to multiply damage against those mobs.

For those who enjoy the strategy aspect of the game, engaging gameplay has been lost here.

The thought process used to be:
Q: Do I want more cc or more damage?  
A: Well what if I try solution one, or two, or three, etc.  Maybe there is a puzzle here to be solved.

Currently, the thought process is this:
Q: Do I have cc yet?  
A: Yes / No
Q: Do I need more damage?  
A: Yes / No

My opinion is that diminishing returns should be applied to the same source or type of cc.  This would allow complexity and creativity in combining different forms of cc but at a clear DU cost.  This would reintroduce the thoughtful process of how it is best to spend DU.  

As a side note.  I consider higher onslaught to be the point at which raw damage cannot overcome lanes within your given DU and mana constraints.  This is different for each person according to their gear.  This is what I would consider endgame and an enjoyable test of your problem solving skills.


This is exactly what i think

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I don't know who came up with this CC nerf idea, but I am pretty sure it was one of those "streamers" (they cry all the time).

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I concur with most if not all hypno has said; nicely articulated! The shared DR really did a diservice to strategy 

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It's not less strategy but more a change of strategy since we can no longer use CC as much so we need to think of another way to use our defenses.  So to say Nerfing CC is nerfing strategy is not correct.

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@Martin Arcainess quote:

It's not less strategy but more a change of strategy since we can no longer use CC as much so we need to think of another way to use our defenses.  So to say Nerfing CC is nerfing strategy is not correct.

If it changes strategy and removes CC as a strategy, I don't understand how that's not nerfing strategy? Currently meta is get as high as dps as you can on your defenses then hope it's good enough for the floor. Last update if WM were not in the game it'd be a game of chess of how many different things you can do with lanes, now it's checkers with wm nerfed and cc as a whole. Pretty boring right now.

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