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Exglint

Top to bottom feedback on Drakenfrost changes

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Welcome all Defenders and Trendy Ent,

Lawlta wanted us to give feedback on the update and I felt this update was the one I would take the time to actually give the full thoughts I had on everything within and hopefully others will give their thoughts and help guide the game towards what we as the players want and what Trendy as a company will be okay with giving us finding the balance between the two. I plan to keep this inline with the notes so everyone can go back and forth between the pages and read both.

Drakenfrost Keep

Always great to see new maps and especially ones that are redone DD1 maps. Not every map has to has some secret that gives us things but it is very nice when you go the extra step and do that. This maps secret was way better than the last, definite +1 to listening to us. It was discoverable with something that you could see was working but still took some time to figure out what to do next or where to look. I do also really enjoy what I have come to call Bloby, our shortly imprisoned Oil Blob friend. He was a nice little hint without even being able to interact with him, I do wish the fire on the other side was visible though as that would have also been a nice hint. I do also see some patterns building and I can't wait to see what lies at the end.

See Edit at bottom.

Winterfest

This seasonal event is great. Town/Tavern gets a new coat and we get free stuff (who doesn't like free stuff). I know its a lot to ask because there are other things going on but I do wish at a minimum, we got a slow implementation of the major Holidays as events like this. It doesn't even have to be all that much different, ie. Valentines Day replaces everything with hearts and you go to the Big Heart in Town/Tavern to get a small lovely reward, or Halloween the Big Pumpkin. Small steps make big impacts.

Elemental Combos

This one is where things will get touchy. Water Servo/Chip Drenching is not only completely unfair to the other elements but at a 100% drench probability makes ANY other drench source a complete waste of a slot. That one change made several of your shards and mods irrelevant. 

Earth Damage is the other useless element with only one unique thing about it, it deals double damage to Lightning Bugs (Yea that's a great element for Earthshatter Tower). Now Earth damage doesn't have an effect to proc but it could be made into crushing damage which allows it to shatter frozen enemies (ES is a crushing damage Earth damage tower which is why it can).

Storm damage is one that requires another element in order to do anything aside from more damage. In this case I think stepping back from the elemental combos and restarting is a good idea (fire damage will also benefit from this). Give each element the ability to proc their own effect and then move to combos between them and introducing new "elements".

Fire damage is the one with the most interactions at the moment with not only the ability to combine with Oil to Ignite enemies but also deals double damage to frost type enemies. This kind of thing can be applied to the other elements over time with new enemies that are weak to them with anywhere between 50-100% extra damage. Like with the previous note, if it could be detached from Oil and have the ability to Ignite on its own and move forward with combos after then keeping them all relative to each other will probably be easier.

Diminishing Returns

"Good luck walking on glass for this one Exglint" Actually I don't think after having the chance to play with this that player still have such a big issue with it. After having the chance myself I have also been okay with it. Now I never originally used a ton of CC but I did try stress testing lanes with everything I could. It's honestly not all that bad, but I can see and have heard from those at the higher end of Onslaught having issues getting things to even work. I can see this from both sides, one side wants to beat Onslaught and the other (I don't speak for Trendy just basing this off what the release made this sound like) doesn't want us to "Beat" it. In any other place in the game this doesn't seem to be an issue for anyone. As of this time I don't see a reason to alter this in either direction.

Mod Improvements

Phase 1 of the mod improvements, for me specifically, drowned me in high quality mods. I had to go and vendor any mod I had at 6 or below at the start due to limitations on the vault tabs I had setup for them, later having to go back and rid those tabs of 7 quality mods, and then later had to go back and rid them of the somewhat desired 8 quality mods. This left me with vault tabs with only 8's that are highly used and any 9's or 10's separated into a tab for relics, armor, and weapons. I know some will read this and continue to say "Streamer Luck" as they have been in channel but I think its just the time I put down into the game.

Phase 2 brought rerolls and the 10 hour protection. 10 hour protection is +1 and that's all that needs to be said there. Rerolls are something I quickly put together numbers for. I calculated that on average it would take 480 rerolls or at max 1200 rerolls to get a max mod. Now I have since had the all mighty Lawlta post that the process I was using was on or near the track but the numbers were not correct. I have since altered this to 240 on average or 600 at max (I know its only half of my original guess but the math just happened to work that way) but who knows if that is closer. Using the new numbers though it seems fine, enough to keep everyone from getting them but not so much that it would be better to just wait for the mod you want to drop.

Overall I like this and love that the Token also drops in Onslaught. Add the Talisman to Onslaught as well while we are at it. As an offer for a change, I would much rather these use amps than motes. Motes are important for so many things and in much greater quantities but amps are used for moving items from one rarity to the next or one tier to the next and in small quantities. 

Inventory Improvements

Yet again, another great job here. I, and I'm sure many others, greatly appreciate any and all QoL improvements to inventory. This has left me with a few desires that can burn me to the core of my being with the inventory. First, sorting was an awesome thing that is most easily seen with shards. I love it.....BUT this has taken away the bags ability to move everything up a space when an item is moved. "That's not a big deal just hit the button again", sure if I'm doing some management between heroes, vaults or bags. When I go to sell items or open shards I cannot stand having to move the mouse to each item when I previously could just spam the button. This is followed up by, why can't I dust shards while they are still closed? Why do I have to go through the painful process of a shard tier I don't care to open at all and have it take ALL the focus of the game to show me, just so I can spam the dust button? Just food for thought.

Mod Sorting in the filter bag is great, but it leaves me with a question. With bags having the understanding of highest mod quality on the item couldn't Autolooter be made to understand that as well so I can skip the step of using the filter bag? I could use Autoloot to setup a bag to only grab 9's and 10's and have everything else Autoloot to trash bags and not have to look at all at anything.

General Changes

Vicinity Targeting

See Edit at bottom.

Material Vault Changes

Oh Mah Geez, yes please on the 9999 cap (even though I'm going to break that as well on several things) this has opened two vault tabs for the time being. Next goal, Pet Consumables with some slots for a few pets to clear off some more stuff.

Social Menus

Can't say no to a button that shows a few hotkeys and/or interactions (sorry console players I have a lot of keys, has PC players tried pressing F6)

Enemy Spawning

The endless battle to make things do what you want. Great job and keep up the work.

Console Voice Chat

Haha, I know a few console players who have been dying until now.

Victory Chests

Blerghuflagurfhalurf is now the official sound of the victory chest in my stream, the loot vomit is amazing. Now if only we could get a tongue on the chest hanging off the corner with the official sound.

Oh and I can't forget, the collection of items even if you forget the chest. I'm going to be a little mean on this one but, in my opinion, if you didn't open your chest at the end then you were not paying enough attention and that's your own fault. I have smacked myself a few times with this, including in Onslaught, and I don't think this needed to be a thing. To each his own though, always nice to see Trendy listening.

Communities

See Edit at bottom.

Balance Changes

I won't list these one by one but will just skim them.

Blockades - What are these again? I still don't see them being very useful. To be honest, they need something that limits the damage done at the higher end of Onslaught otherwise the best action any player can take is eventually phasing them out for more damage as they don't do their job past taking one hit.

Frosty Power - Honestly, this shard never worked as it read on the text and I bet most players don't actually know that. This "nerf" wasn't all that big of a nerf. With a max c8 relic the drop is only 14k Defense Power with a non gilded Frosty Power shard and still boosts for more than that. To be completely fair, Boost Aura setup correctly was always stronger than it anyways and can be placed on towers where Frosty Power only made the tower boost things near the enemy chilled so I don't know why players are taking up arms about this one. It's still a boost and still works and still has a powerful slow, it was never intended to be a boost tower that was a side job for it.

Fissures - I know everyone has waited for this one. "What is he gunna say as a Flame Aura user, I bet he loves this change" Actually I think this was completely unfair to Fissures. This was their one and only benefit over other Auras and they not only took it away but made it FAR worse than any other Aura in the game. WOW. Okay Trendy, I can agree if you want to make a range limitation on them but that was too much. At worst this should have the same distance limitation as Weapon Manu. no matter how much range someone places on them. This is one of those things that I would place in the nearest hotfix, don't make people suffer like this for long.

Bug Fixes and Known Issues

Always and forever great to see keep it up. For the Known issues, nothing is perfect everyone knows this.

Edit 1

Vicinity Targeting

It was nice to have someway to interact with other players during a wave for community stuffs and party invites, but it wouldn't cycle through players so I had to get them on the first try or wait for build phase, otherwise, I'm too used to the old esp menu stuff to be happy with this on PC, probably will be awesome on console though.

Communities
I really like where this is going and it can be expanded on so well from here. First thing I saw, too low of a member count. It doesn't need to be much higher but 50-80 would be nice (even though I'm sure Juice will need 200 per community). Second thing on my QoL wishlist, joining matches from the community UI. I would love to start private matches and have community members join from there instead of doing public matches which have lead....well I have another thread for that and lets just say I absolutely hate public matches right now. The last thing I wish for, it would be nice to have a little search box to type a name in for invite rather than having to be in the same session. Otherwise, like I said, going in the right direction.

Drakenfrost boss

Love it, first thing I heard when I got on was about how hard it was to beat him. I got overly excited....then I beat him on my first try in the Drakenfrost map. Much disappoint and I know that was all me to blame, I got excited without first trying it and listening to those who probably haven't adjusted or figured anything out. Then came the cheese strategies. These irritate me the most. NO, nonono, I hate when a semi difficult boss on its own basically falls apart, being absolutely zero challenge by doing one thing that is easy for anyone to do. We just had a huge breakthrough with elemental combos, and this guy is brought to his knees by a Burning Strikes shard alone? I love the concept of a mechanical boss fight, something that you can't just destroy by having big numbers but you actually have to do things in order to hurt him. I would love it even more if it would require a friend or two to complete, especially with the introductions of communities. I don't understand why I need to spend all my time grinding in a single mode (that I am bored to tears with) to get anything that can be remotely difficult. I don't even want to get started on the Tenacity Servo, this thing is literally so powerful and is buffed in every major patch. I can't even call my solo Huntress push in Onslaught hard anymore.

End note, Boss was great as long as I have rules for what is used in my party but I shouldn't need these rules.

Mods and Weapons

Not many people know this but this rotating week thing, is the BEST IDEA EVER. Thank you so much, I despised having every weapon and every mod in the same box for the pirate maps because you had to get ultra lucky Rng multiples times in a row all in the same win to get something great. This style of rewarding fixes all that, (even though the locked mod thing was confusing, I thought we hit this roadblock with Incursion weapons). I would love to see more of this and I cant wait to see what other weapons are mods are up next.

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Side note: As cool as it was to have getting the reward have an effect on the map, O_O please don't do that again

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I'm the same on every point except for the frosty power change and the diminishing returns change. Most people are probably not getting a frosty tower to c8. Even if they did they said cc was too strong not damage of frosty tower. Not only did the damage get nerfed but the aoe slow doesn't work after about 5seconds to surrounding enemies so.. neat. Diminishing returns I can go on about for days but simply it nerfed everything to bandaid 1 tower which is horrible. They did this to pump out the water drench change because every month they've been down many players. We seen this in 2016 as well pumping out content to appeal new players. Their balance team needs some serious assistance or this game will not be around for a long time. I'm getting weaker every single patch in a PvE game, I have more desires than to afk c7 for eternity where these changes don't matter. I hope it will be ran by the community like dd1 so instead of rare patches being a let down most of the time after reading the balance section, I can actually be excited to see it and feel ok about wasting so much time on this game.

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@Haven quote:

I'm the same on every point except for the frosty power change and the diminishing returns change. Most people are probably not getting a frosty tower to c8. Even if they did they said cc was too strong not damage of frosty tower. Not only did the damage get nerfed but the aoe slow doesn't work after about 5seconds to surrounding enemies so.. neat.

At c7 max the loss is only 10k. I think the shard should take more into consideration to better reflect what the text says and have the % altered around that, so when you drop a destruction on it and you have 150k defense power then you can be sure it moves x% over rather than what it is now. Before the nerf you could have 200k defense power on it and only be getting approx. 30k boost which feels weird when it says 50%.

The second part falls in line with the DimRet which is above and I planned to mostly stay out of that since it wont have a huge effect on me but I made comments about how I saw it from where I am to at least give them a side on it.

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@Exglint quote:


@Haven quote:

I'm the same on every point except for the frosty power change and the diminishing returns change. Most people are probably not getting a frosty tower to c8. Even if they did they said cc was too strong not damage of frosty tower. Not only did the damage get nerfed but the aoe slow doesn't work after about 5seconds to surrounding enemies so.. neat.

At c7 max the loss is only 10k. I think the shard should take more into consideration to better reflect what the text says and have the % altered around that, so when you drop a destruction on it and you have 150k defense power then you can be sure it moves x% over rather than what it is now. Before the nerf you could have 200k defense power on it and only be getting approx. 30k boost which feels weird when it says 50%.

The second part falls in line with the DimRet which is above and I planned to mostly stay out of that since it wont have a huge effect on me but I made comments about how I saw it from where I am to at least give them a side on it.

If it is only 10k this next part might sound a bit ridiculous but I still don't think that was a good enough reason to change it. it's a cc only tower (for the most part) and all cc was just nerfed pretty hard. the shard change was just a stomp when we're already on the ground.

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The whole problem with the new update is Trendy's promise on stream that tube and Reck's build still worked high onslaught !

As if ! 

They nerfed everything and even the build they said was gonna work is trash now , what does that leaves high onslaught players with ? Nothing , can't progress anymore at all. 

Who ***ing cares about c7, i can stomp c7 with whatever I'm building even if the tower is trash...what's the point ...

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The thing is, onslaught is not endless. When floor 999 is cleared there will be nothing left for players like reck and tube to push for. I dont see this update as a fix to everything in the game, I see it as a new way to evolve the game into a state where more crazy things like shocking rev + water damage with drench could be a thing. My hopes for what was to come out of the update is far from satisfied in regards to the elemental combos, but I believe this gives just enough wiggle room to make more cool stuff like fire + poison and whatever else trendy has in mind. They said so many times, but this is just the beginning so I am still optimistic about all of this.

The fissure nerf hough, I agree thats too much. Some of these pain points like the map secret freezing everything upon comletion just seems really unnecissary.

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@hajum023 quote:

The thing is, onslaught is not endless. When floor 999 is cleared there will be nothing left for players like reck and tube to push for. I dont see this update as a fix to everything in the game, I see it as a new way to evolve the game into a state where more crazy things like shocking rev + water damage with drench could be a thing. My hopes for what was to come out of the update is far from satisfied in regards to the elemental combos, but I believe this gives just enough wiggle room to make more cool stuff like fire + poison and whatever else trendy has in mind. They said so many times, but this is just the beginning so I am still optimistic about all of this.

The fissure nerf hough, I agree thats too much. Some of these pain points like the map secret freezing everything upon comletion just seems really unnecissary.

You're removing a mod slot on your weapon manufacturers for extra stuns when stuns don't work after 6s or so. That's a very large nerf given before we had an extra mod slot and unlimited stuns. Instead of high pushers being able to login and continue pushing, they're now stuck at chaos 7 because of the nerfs with nothing to do right now instead of achieving goals of 1st to 999. If anything this update devolved the game in terms of balance, less stuff is viable than it was last patch and that's a trend we've been seeing for years.

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I feel that people are a bit too harsh on blockades as they are capable of holding off a lane on their lonesome at floor 80.


Yes I understand there is better choices but sometimes I don't pay attention and something gets destroyed so I let a blockade handle the new lane, I was blown away when I realised the lonely blockade dealt over 1.000.000.000 damage on a single wave.


My blockade has 20m+ health with gilded fortitude, explosive shielding guard and automation along side a perfect accumulator servo almost perfect protective downgrade and almost perfect fortitude servo.

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@hajum023 quote:

The fissure nerf hough, I agree thats too much. Some of these pain points like the map secret freezing everything upon comletion just seems really unnecissary.

We've got a buff coming to fissure in our next patch.

The "map being covered in snow/ice for the secret" feedback is completely understood and is on our radar. It's a more involved process to change this, but we completely get where a lot of you are coming from.

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@BIGREDMONSTER quote:

I feel that people are a bit too harsh on blockades as they are capable of holding off a lane on their lonesome at floor 80.


Yes I understand there is better choices but sometimes I don't pay attention and something gets destroyed so I let a blockade handle the new lane, I was blown away when I realised the lonely blockade dealt over 1.000.000.000 damage on a single wave.


My blockade has 20m+ health with gilded fortitude, explosive shielding guard and automation along side a perfect accumulator servo almost perfect protective downgrade and almost perfect fortitude servo.

CC holds high hp bosses in place a lot longer than a blockade can, or at least it used to. that blockade will get 2 shot at a higher floor, cc is very hard to replace as it's the only way to defeat the high hp bosses when pushing very far. If you put that much investment into pretty much any tower with mods and shards at floor 80 it would see similar results.

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@Haven quote:

You're removing a mod slot on your weapon manufacturers for extra stuns when stuns don't work after 6s or so. That's a very large nerf given before we had an extra mod slot and unlimited stuns.

It was a well deserved nerf, though. The stunlock cheese was over the top. 

It's not as if CC is useless now anyway. You can still massively slow things down and there's now far more ways to do it. I'm not sure how that makes "less stuff viable" besides the fact fissures are pretty crap now.

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Cuddles, you cannot massively slow things for long at the moment

Only for a few seconds, then DR procs and mobs become immune to it 

The most used argument is you only have to kill the mobs in the first 4 seconds right ? How many seconds does it take for your defenses to kill a boss that has over 1 billion hp ? If it takes you less than 4 tell me how ;)

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@Cuddles quote:


@Haven quote:

You're removing a mod slot on your weapon manufacturers for extra stuns when stuns don't work after 6s or so. That's a very large nerf given before we had an extra mod slot and unlimited stuns.

It was a well deserved nerf, though. The stunlock cheese was over the top. 

It's not as if CC is useless now anyway. You can still massively slow things down and there's now far more ways to do it. I'm not sure how that makes "less stuff viable" besides the fact fissures are pretty crap now.

CC is quite literally useless as everything is immune to CC in a single digit amnt of seconds. I've made a very long post or 2 about why it was a bad change w/ diminishing returns was not the right way to go about it. If wm are too strong: nerf them again not everything under the "CC" class. Stuff that can cc that was unused or not used a lot before will now never be seen. Less stuff in the game is viable after the patch and that's just a fact unless you only play chaos 7 but if that was the case talking about balance is useless than.

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As there are many threads specifically discussing Diminishing Returns and the CC things how about we leave that to those threads and see if there is any feedback on the rest of everything else from this thread. I do understand the frustration though.

@LAWLTA quote:
@hajum023 quote:

The fissure nerf hough, I agree thats too much. Some of these pain points like the map secret freezing everything upon comletion just seems really unnecissary.

We've got a buff coming to fissure in our next patch.

The "map being covered in snow/ice for the secret" feedback is completely understood and is on our radar. It's a more involved process to change this, but we completely get where a lot of you are coming from.

Great to hear, and I did forget to mention that secret part but it has left a possibility open that I hear some people are taking and it is upsetting players. Great idea though and was really fun to have when used properly.

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Edited for recent update, and finalizing certain sections that were left blank.

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