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Cymmina

Crafting material requirements for item upgrades needs a reality check

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We already had upgrading in the game and it never needed crafting materials until the Isle of Dread update. Please send me their names and addresses of whoever came up with this idea so I can go visit them Jay and Silent Bob style.

The gold requirements for upgrading an item from campaign all the way to chaos 7 is significant enough that it would be a deterrent for each and every item you pick up, while not actually preventing players from upgrading the items they really really want to keep.

Upgrade Costs

To upgrade a single relic from campaign to chaos 7 with 10 upgrades, you need the following:

  • 1 ampoule from each chaos difficulty (c1-c7)
  • 40 plain motes
  • 50 shiny motes
  • 4 ruby clusters
  • 20 pristine motes
  • 2 citrine clusters
  • 1,787,875 gold

To upgrade to chaos 8 with 10 upgrades, you will also need the following:

  • 6 chaos 8 ampoules (1 to turn it into c8, 5 additional for the upgrades)
  • 600 pristine motes
  • 250 citrine clusters

Material Locations

  • Plain items come from c1-c3
  • Shiny items come from c4-c6
  • Pristine items come from c7

This sounds OK on paper, but the only way it could possibly work is if the players are spending equal amounts of time in each difficulty, and they aren't. The normal progression is to speed through c1-c6 as fast as possible and spend the majority of your time in c7/onslaught. This leads to a huge influx of pristine materials into the economy, making them virtually worthless, and a slow trickle of plain and shiny materials being sold at exorbitant prices.

I can't even fathom the reason behind having the difficulty that most people spend their time be the one that is the least required. You're forcing the players to spend twice as much time in chaos 1-3 compared to chaos 7 just in terms of motes. No one wants to farm those maps. Prior to the Isle of Dread, we did it because we needed the shards, not because it is fun or interesting or challenging. The new material requirements haven't made those maps any more fun or interesting or challenging.

At least players have a shot of getting the shards they need on higher difficulties, no such luck for crafting materials.

Ampoules

These are necessary for advancing an item to the next difficulty. Excluding c8, they're basically irrelevant in terms of upgrading. You get multiple in each map you play, and you'd only need to play a couple maps a week to basically have as many as you'll ever need. This is a reasonable cost.

Motes

If we average 5 motes drop per map, it would take 8 maps to get 40 motes. Assuming I could clear a map in 8 minutes, it would take 1 hour to get enough motes to upgrade a single relic to chaos 4. It would take another hour and 20 minutes to get 50 shiny motes to get it to chaos 7. Meanwhile, I have more pristine motes than I'll ever need from casually doing endgame content.

Secondary Materials

The secondary material requirements (eg. clusters) are more the only material requirements that are of a sensible level. Worst case scenario, it would take a maximum of 4 c6 maps and 2 c7 maps to get the necessary materials. I will always have considerably more secondary materials to upgrade with compared to the motes.

The number of items needed is a reasonable amount, excluding c8 items.

Gold

On top of material costs, I need ~1.7M gold per relic. If I get ~200k per chaos 7 expedition map (~150k from end map bonus + selling drops), and it takes 10 minutes to clear, that's another 2 hours gone. Since I will get some gold from farming motes, I probably won't need to spend that much time on c7 maps to get the rest.

Estimated Time

Let's pretend you get enough gold from farming motes that you don't have to farm gold afterwards. That's almost 2.5 hours being spent to upgrade a single piece of gear after you've already spent untold hours farming for the perfect relic and the mods that are on it. Whether I spend my 2.5 hours farming gold to buy them from other players or farm the materials myself, someone is stuck doing unfulfilling content for excessive amounts of time. At least with shards, I have a chance of getting low level shards while doing more difficult maps or I can buy shard packs using medals.

To upgrade a single DPS hero's equipment would take roughly 12.5 hours. To upgrade a single relic for each of the 11 heroes that can build defenses would take 27.5 hours. That's a full time job right there. It's not accounting for characters that have multiple good defenses that all need their own relics, or even having different builds for the same defense (eg. "boss killer" LSA + "normal" LSA).

Once I finish doing my ancient power resets, which are grindy enough on their own without considering upgrade costs, I will be stuck grinding for the rest of my life to upgrade every last relic, weapon, and armor on all 13 of my heroes. I would have been better off creating mule accounts to store my items and mods than let them get downgraded to campaign when I did my resets, even though it costs 8x as much to do the tinkering.

Recommendations

Remove motes from the upgrade costs or put the costs on the same level as the secondary crafting material requirements. We never needed crafting materials to upgrade items before and the gold costs for upgrading are enough of a roadblock on their own.

Add some plain materials to c4-c6 maps/chests, and plain and shiny materials to c7 maps/chests.

Chaos 8 items should either not get downgraded or have their material costs severely reduced. The chaos 8 ampoules are rare enough as is that most people aren't going to be able to use them unless they are completely done doing resets, nevermind the insane material costs.

Remove or reduce how far the items are downgraded by ancient power resets. Make it so that if my starting floor is 22 (chaos 6), my items won't be downgraded below chaos 6. It's still tough for players who are just getting started doing ancient powers. By the 15th reset, your starting floor is chaos 7. You'll still have to spend hours upon hours getting your good gear for each hero back up to chaos 7, you just won't have to do it every single reset.

P.S. Players are muling "good" relics they've found on previous resets so they can protect them from getting downgraded and use them on their next reset. You're only punishing players who haven't figured out this is an option.

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Funny you have mentioned making! I have a server with three virtuals at home and have contemplated spinning up two win 10 virtuals with steam for exactly this. Though, it would be more for material farming. But you’re right it would avoid the gold costs as well. 

#multiboxing

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Totally agree that downgraded equipment on AP reset should go down to your starting tier after reset or at worse minus 1 so once you get multiple resets the worst it will drop is to C6 maybe.


Still a punishment but not as bad as a total wipe especially when later on you have to go from floor 50 to 80 to reset with crap gear each time.


And C8 items and mastery shards should never reset ever due to their expensive costs.

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this is my biggest issue with the game right now (besides a ton of bugs) . you farm for a long time to get good gear and mods , then you climb floors to raise your min. asc level only to realize you need a ton of mats to upgrade your beloved items. plain motes are by far the worst , for me the plain mote drop rate is half of what the shiny ones are and i spend way less time in c1-c3 (upgrading my monk weapon unlocks c4). the game even gives you the option to start at a higher onslaught floor after you reset but to do that you need the gear . a lot of people have ideas like , what if u had a special vault where some items wouldn't get reset lol. just make upgrading realistic , this is my third or forth comment on the subject. after climbing to floor 154 i am doing some more resets now , sure i dont need my tinkered gear to get to floor 80 but it sure is fun to have your 10/10 pierce on your PDTs and stuff. we work really hard to get good gear set up only to have to farm forever to get it back . 


i know most of my post are me complaining about things i do not like about the game so i will take a second to say I love your game Trendy and i have hit 3k hours recently . some things just need tweaking :) 

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If motes were combined into a single type of note and their drop rate increase from C1 to C7 and even higher Onslaught floors would make part of this better. 

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Hopefully Trendy takes a look at it as the next quality of life improvement. It has been so peaceful on the forums lately :) To me reset means reset - as in start over. I don't mind that. To be honest, I love starting over as it's much better than playing C7 over and over again or beating my head against a high floor. I hit that reset floor and there is such a relief when I do an ancient reset. But geez these requirements need to be looked. Even something as simple as making motes per map type instead of map type and c-level would work.

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Does anyone else think that adding a materials vendor NPC to the Tavern/Town would alleviate a lot (if not all) of the crafting materials pain points?


Also....I agree with those above who expressed the desire to have each reset reduce the amount that your gear is downgraded.   Unless there is some AP change that we are unaware of, by the time you get your minimum onslaught floor into CVII difficulty then the reset only serves to prevent you from making use of the mods that you spent a long time farming (and, in my opinion, that is an unnecessary punishment for playing the game as intended).

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@RustyCounterweight quote:

Does anyone else think that adding a materials vendor NPC to the Tavern/Town would alleviate a lot (if not all) of the crafting materials pain points?


Also....I agree with those above who expressed the desire to have each reset reduce the amount that your gear is downgraded.   Unless there is some AP change that we are unaware of, by the time you get your minimum onslaught floor into CVII difficulty then the reset only serves to prevent you from making use of the mods that you spent a long time farming (and, in my opinion, that is an unnecessary punishment for playing the game as intended).


Only to the extent that they are NOT done like shard dust and where shards you spend dust on are completely random.  Shard dust and a materials vendor needs to work in the same vein.

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I think some of these ideas are very dangerous. "Reducing the downgrade of each piece of gear", "c8 item being immune". Reseting is supposed to be a big deal, and it is, at least the first reset after you actually commit to doing a couple of resets, after that you can do perfectly fine with only upgrading two items. I spend about 1 hour after each reset to grind mats to get my two pieces leveled back up, that is not as bad as I hear a lot of poeple making it sound when doing resets. After about 15-20 resets you earn back 1.8 mill gold only from the floors you have to push. If you add on something extra from farming motes and ap weapons plus some dms from dailies, you can easily break even from that point on. C8 items? Come on, that would be broken as all hell and make onslaught what it was pre protean shift where grinding ap was nothing but a time sink. At least now, with omega waves and the scaling, you CAN loose. The power you get from c8 relics is immense, reseting it is a big sacrifice, just as it should be. 

However, I agree that the mote system as it stands need a re-balance, but not in terms of grinding time, but in terms of aligning this system better the other things you want to spend your time grinding for. As many players would testify, "shards alone are incentive enough to play different chaos tiers", but when doing resets, chances are you are not looking for shards but rather gold, and gear for your dps hero. You would farm c1 or c3 if you really want some destructions and deadly strikes, but you dont want to farm it when you are not looking for shards. Therefore, like mentioned above, one solution could be to combine all motes (and other mats too might I add) into the same tier so that the reward would be the same, no matter the chaos tier you are farming. Furthermore, I would really like this idea to be complemented by standardizing the amount of motes dropping on all chaos tiers. That way it would feel equally as rewarding in terms of crafting materials no matter what difficulty you have chosen to farm (based on other incentives, be it gold and gear, or simply shards)
I would be thrilled to have my farming incentives not collide with each other, so that I dont feel like I am always missing out on something. However, must again emphasize that this a free-to-grind game, so grinding should be as time-consuming as it is now in my opinion.

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@hajum023 quote:

I think some of these ideas are very dangerous. "Reducing the downgrade of each piece of gear", "c8 item being immune". Reseting is supposed to be a big deal, and it is, at least the first reset after you actually commit to doing a couple of resets, after that you can do perfectly fine with only upgrading two items. I spend about 1 hour after each reset to grind mats to get my two pieces leveled back up, that is not as bad as I hear a lot of poeple making it sound when doing resets. After about 15-20 resets you earn back 1.8 mill gold only from the floors you have to push. If you add on something extra from farming motes and ap weapons plus some dms from dailies, you can easily break even from that point on. C8 items? Come on, that would be broken as all hell and make onslaught what it was pre protean shift where grinding ap was nothing but a time sink. At least now, with omega waves and the scaling, you CAN loose. The power you get from c8 relics is immense, reseting it is a big sacrifice, just as it should be.

You don't think that going back down to floor 50 and losing all the upgrades in your non-gilded shards is punishment enough?  Perhaps you'd like to refrain from using gilded shards because that would be "overpowered"?  Why not go back to playing 3 maps for every floor?  Also, stop using the "retry" feature.  Just because you don't mind being a masochist doesn't mean everyone else does.

This isn't just about resets.  This is also about what happens in the long run after you've finished doing resets and are ready to "play the game" for real with all of that campaign level gear you couldn't justify upgrading because you're just going to reset again in a few days.  Or when you find a perfect roll or mod on a piece of gear while farming c1 for Destruction shards.  How many hours are you going to end up spending grinding for materials to upgrade all of your gear?

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i just didn't upgrade anything after ap reset/ you just use what is dropped is powerful enough to get onslaught and saves alot of gold and materials until your done ap resetting 

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I don't know what they are changing with motes, but here is my suggestion. Plain motes   should drop in wave 1 - 2 of  c7 maps, shiny motes should drop in wave 3 - 4 the then wave 5 for c7 motes. Same in onslaught for c7 + floors. This should maximize the reward for playing higher level maps, instead of going back to boring lower tier maps.

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So why does C3 only drop plain motes on the first 2 waves?  It would pan out just fine if all waves dropped 3-5 plain motes.  Very odd.  Small or large maps (gates vs bastille) you get the exact same number of motes.  Needs slight tweaking.


EDIT - If you receive 5 mopes on the first wave, quit and restart.  If you receive less than five do the second wave.  Don't ever go passed the third.

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having plain motes drop is areas other than c1-c3 would help a lot . plain motes are the main issue for me. i did about 10 resets without upgrading and was stock piling mats . i reached a point where i thought i had plenty and could upgrade a few items to speed things up . i quickly ran out of plain motes , this is when i started testing and realized i get 3 to 5 plain motes per map and like 12 shiny ones per map . hell there was some c3 maps where i would get 1 shiny mote heh. so right now i have like 4k pristine motes , 1300 shiny motes and 20 plain motes. the whole point of upgrading your gear is to speed up the reset process . gold isn't an issue for me , i buy 99 stacks of plain motes for 2 million (when i can find em) and i am still low on them from upgrading 2 items per reset ( WMs relic and monk weapon) 


1: increase the plain mote drop rate 

2: 20 plain motes upgrades an item to c3 max (not 40) 


lol Kambien , i did the same for a while , you see 4 plain motes drop on the first wave u might as well sell defenses , let it fail , start a new map . 

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@Cymmina quote:
@hajum023 quote:

You don't think that going back down to floor 50 and losing all the upgrades in your non-gilded shards is punishment enough?  Perhaps you'd like to refrain from using gilded shards because that would be "overpowered"?  Why not go back to playing 3 maps for every floor?  Also, stop using the "retry" feature.  Just because you don't mind being a masochist doesn't mean everyone else does.

There is such a thing as critical mass. Too much convinience makes the game too easy and the grind too quick, but neither should it be too grindy and too hard. In my mind, when it comes to ap grinding, the game is in pretty descent place right now in terms of this balance. I love the retry feature and the one map floors, but I also love having to work for the power im gaining.



@Cymmina quote:
@hajum023 quote:

This isn't just about resets.  This is also about what happens in the long run after you've finished doing resets and are ready to "play the game" for real with all of that campaign level gear you couldn't justify upgrading because you're just going to reset again in a few days.  Or when you find a perfect roll or mod on a piece of gear while farming c1 for Destruction shards.  How many hours are you going to end up spending grinding for materials to upgrade all of your gear?

If you read the latter part of my comment, you would see I am in favour of one tier of crafting materials, that way you can still earn the materials needed to upgrade your campaign  level gear while grinding c7 or pushing onslaught. You wouuld be matching your incentives. I absolutely agree that plain mats are a problem because of the variety in drop rates and not always alligning with your other incentives. I would love to see small change to the crafting mats, I encourage trendy and all of us players to not get over board and tip the scales too far at a time.

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@playertt quote:

i just didn't upgrade anything after ap reset/ you just use what is dropped is powerful enough to get onslaught and saves alot of gold and materials until your done ap resetting 

If you can do resets with gear you've scavenged, how can it possibly be "overpowered" if your gear stops going all the way down to campaign after a while?

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@hajum023 quote:


@Cymmina quote:
@hajum023 quote:

You don't think that going back down to floor 50 and losing all the upgrades in your non-gilded shards is punishment enough?  Perhaps you'd like to refrain from using gilded shards because that would be "overpowered"?  Why not go back to playing 3 maps for every floor?  Also, stop using the "retry" feature.  Just because you don't mind being a masochist doesn't mean everyone else does.

There is such a thing as critical mass. Too much convinience makes the game too easy and the grind too quick, but neither should it be too grindy and too hard. In my mind, when it comes to ap grinding, the game is in pretty descent place right now in terms of this balance. I love the retry feature and the one map floors, but I also love having to work for the power im gaining.

You aren't making any compelling arguments here. You think that getting ancient powers "should be hard" or "should be inconvenient" based on nothing. Having to go all the way back down to floor 50 and upgrading your shards all over again is inconvenient enough. The drop rate on c8 motes and onslaught mods isn't capped out anymore, you can't play with any of your friends who decided to keep climbing rather than do resets with you, and you've been locked out of truly challenging content until you grind your way all the way back up to whatever your max floor was before.

In order to max out all 14 ancient powers, you will need to reset 70 times (14 x 5). Of those 70, 55 of them will be starting on floor 28 or higher. Most players doing resets will only upgrade a single relic to get through each reset. If they stopped downgrading below c7 at that point, you could have had 2 DPS heroes geared up and 1 relic for each of the 11 builder heroes' defenses instead.

By resetting all of your gear down to campaign every time, you're basically telling the player they're a moron if they stop before they finish with their 70th reset. But if the player never wants to do another reset again in their life, they better do a bunch extra just in case more ancient powers are added in the future (4 new powers were added fairly recently). Also, forget about doing a reset once you've realized that you can triple (or better) your ascension because you've improved your min ascension that much since the last reset. And pray that whatever build you are relying on for your resets doesn't get nerfed while you are in the middle of a reset so you don't have to upgrade a relic with completely different mods just to finish (they broke bees during one of my resets and I had to ask for a carry so that I wouldn't have to upgrade a second medallion).

I thought I was done after reset #21 and I could take some time to enjoy some of the nice modded gear I had accumulated these past few months. I upgraded 5 items (gun witch weapon, weapon manufacturer, earth shatter, poison dart tower, ramster) because that's all the farming I could stomach between floors on the climb to 120. I built all of the same boring defenses I had built during my resets because I knew they worked.

Now I'm back on the reset grind because grinding for gold and materials is even more boring than grinding resets. It isn't fun anymore and I can't really do anything else with my entire account until I'm done with resets for good. Grinding the same 30 floors over and over again is enough punishment compared to what you get in return, and resetting your gear all the way down to campaign every time is the cherry kick-in-the-balls on top.

Sure, ancient powers are optional, but now that I've started doing them, I'd be a moron to stop now.

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@Cymmina quote:


@playertt quote:

i just didn't upgrade anything after ap reset/ you just use what is dropped is powerful enough to get onslaught and saves alot of gold and materials until your done ap resetting 

If you can do resets with gear you've scavenged, how can it possibly be "overpowered" if your gear stops going all the way down to campaign after a while?

i didn't say it was overpowered i said you can  beat onslaught with just dropped items not as easy though and not for for higher onslaught floors probably past floor 48 / also before ap reset i sold  everything for extra gold except for a few of the items i wanted to keep  after i was done ap resetting  

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@playertt quote:


@Cymmina quote:


@playertt quote:

i just didn't upgrade anything after ap reset/ you just use what is dropped is powerful enough to get onslaught and saves alot of gold and materials until your done ap resetting 

If you can do resets with gear you've scavenged, how can it possibly be "overpowered" if your gear stops going all the way down to campaign after a while?

i didn't say it was overpowered i said you can  beat onslaught with just dropped items not as easy though and not for for higher onslaught floors probably past floor 48 / also before ap reset i sold  everything for extra gold except for a few of the items i wanted to keep  after i was done ap resetting  

I haven't had a problem beating floors past dropped items of any quality past 48. I'm not that high but so far comfortable up through floor 68. The problem is that (1) I use WMF and the drops for the shocking rev don't happen as often. (2) I also use a piercer mod and it seems like lately it has been harder and harder to get those. So rather than upgrading just one tower, it's now forcing me to update 2 because I don't want to play c7 maps over and over again hoping to get the mod I want, even if it's low quality.

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The upgrade system is broken.  The prices and overall grind is too exorbinate.  I pushed the AP reset grind to 15 and took a break.  I have been pushing floors now in the 100s; however, I could literally double my Ascension levels by doing another AP reset since my starting ASC would be so high now... but I can't fathom the grind and cost of upgrading my gear back to where it is now.   The idea of wasted c8 ampoules and hyper shard cost is ridiculous; not to mention the motes... oh so many plain motes...

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C8 gear should be immune to encourage people to actually try and achieve it and secondly to add insensitive to do AP resetting.

In all my time in onslaught getting to floor 98 on the old system and now 99 on the new one I have 4 C8 ampoule... not enough to even max out one relic if I wanted to and it costs way more gold or medals than gilding.


Then if I reset all that time and resources is wasted so what is the point?

If that one relic was immune then yes it might make the boring solo reset-athon a little easier but to suggest the average player is even geared with one c8 gear let alone 4 or 5 relic at full c8 is a joke.

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I don't think changing material drops make things too easy or too accessible or make things too quick.  It's really because very few people farm mats from C1 - C5.  The proof is in the player shops.  And then look at those people who are selling mats is almost all C7 because more people are doing AP but still not the masses.  It's a gated system behind other gates.  We all get that.  

Perhaps GEAR needs to be able to be "de-crafted" and turned into upgrade mats and motes.  

I am not sure what the exact outcome should be but a tweak is certainly needed.

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We have a system we're looking into right now that should help alleviate a lot of these concerns. There's a slew of things we're trying to design and test that has you playing content that is more engaging while being able to earn the things you want.

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Thanks, Lawlta!  I know that specifics and details are unavailable right now. But just knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel is wonderful. 

TE rocks!

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@hailminion quote:

do we have an approximate date for the system update? santa.pngmaybe as Christmas gift to players 

@LAWLTA quote:

-snip-

If we say we're looking into something, especially of this scale, there's no way we'd get it out within a few weeks. Being that it's something that potentially effects the economy, ancient power, and progression for all players, we need to be very careful and put in the time.

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