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High Quality MODS Are Too Rare!


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Well didn't want to beat the dead horse, as Trendy is already looking at it, but here is some info that I recorded in between perfect MOD drops. You tell me if they aren't still too rare. 

Basic business principle, supply and demand. As people are saying they are too rare, and others are saying they aren't yet no one is saying any actual information that they have experienced so here is some facts.

I found a 10/10 Hero Damage Buff chip a few days ago. It had been 19 days and 203 hours played since my last perfect mod drop. So 10+ hours a day for 19 days? Ya RNG sucks but would anyone here not agree that this is just too rare? This also included 31 hours of playing coop with my wife where I completely intended on swiping her perfect mods. Now this last run was way more grueling then most, and RNG hates me, but real numbers.

I would never expect everyone on the forums to agree about anything. But if you don't think that this real, time documented experience that I personally had is a bit over the top, then I just don't know :P


edit: Got a 10/10 on Stream today after only about 20-30 hours of play, so RNG obviously goes both ways. If that all Skeleton map ever comes these skeles better look out! Emoji_Skeleton.png

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Hi there my first reply to anything on this forum but have something to say. in all I have to agree with juice on this topic but not 100% in agreement. my thoughts are drop rate is drastical

a lottery system for a weighted drop mod tier system does not a good grind game make.

End game progression should be a time vs reward not a rng lottery with drop rates so low spread amongst so many mods within a 10 tier weighted system that you can never really farm anything specific.

Even if you dont want to onslaught climb for end game progression theres still character progression, maxing out a characters potential and right now thats not something thats grindable, its something thats left up to luck.

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@Juicebags quote:

Well didn't want to beat the dead horse, as Trendy is already looking at it

Now this last run was way more grueling then most, and RNG hates me, but real numbers.

First part is the reason I felt was a good time to warrant a post since I wouldn't affect it anymore.

Second part is funny because the viewers in my stream claim I have streamer rng on my side lol

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@Juicebags quote:

Well didn't want to beat the dead horse, as Trendy is already looking at it, but here is some info that I recorded in between perfect MOD drops. You tell me if they aren't still too rare. 

Basic business principle, supply and demand. As people are saying they are too rare, and others are saying they aren't yet no one is saying any actual information that they have experienced so here is some facts.

I found a 10/10 Hero Damage Buff chip a few days ago. It had been 19 days and 203 hours played since my last perfect mod drop. So 10+ hours a day for 19 days? Ya RNG sucks but would anyone here not agree that this is just too rare? This also included 31 hours of playing coop with my wife where I completely intended on swiping her perfect mods. Now this last run was way more grueling then most, and RNG hates me, but real numbers.

I would never expect everyone on the forums to agree about anything. But if you don't think that this real, time documented experience that I personally had is a bit over the top, then I just don't know :P


edit: Got a 10/10 on Stream today after only about 20-30 hours of play, so RNG obviously goes both ways. If that all Skeleton map ever comes these skeles better look out! Emoji_Skeleton.png

I generally find a 9/10 or 10/10 mod every 30-40 games .   It takes me up to 7 minutes to complete a CVII map, meaning that I find one perfect mod (on average) every 210-280 minutes of game play (about 3.5-4.6 hours).  Half of the 9/10 and 10/10 mods that I have found have been good mods and the other half were useless.  

As a result, I believe that the drop rates are fine.    If the drop rates were increased in a noticeable way then I am confident that I could have all of my characters using 10/10 mods in every item withing in a month or two.


Before messing with the drop rates, it might be a better idea alter how better mods scale so that not having a perfect mod doesn't mean that your mods is complete junk.

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@RustyCounterweight quote:

  If the drop rates were increased in a noticeable way then I am confident that I could have all of my characters using 10/10 mods in every item withing in a month or two.

Personally I think two months to gear all your heroes for a hardcore player like yourself is really a good number. At some point you have to consider yourself geared and start pushing end game and climbing floors. I mean it doesn't take 2 months to do say 30+ Ancient Power resets, it shouldn't  take two months to find your gear if you are blasting out 7 minute maps. Now imagine how long it would take 75%+ of the player base. So I 100% agree with your disagreement. Emoji_Kobalt.png 

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A 9/10 and a 10/10 are not the same. Finding a 9/10 isn't finding a perfect mod. You're not finding a perfect mod every 210-280 minutes. 10/10s are at least half as likely as 9/10s, perhaps less so. It's hard to say given their rarity.

Let's be generous and say it's half, and that you are finding every 720 minutes (midway through your estimate) 1 10/10 and 2 9/10s. Now you're at a 10/10 every 12 hours. There are 145 10/10s to find. You'll need 30 to flesh out a minimalist deck. Based on your own stated time spent for these mods, if you could force every 10/10 you wanted to drop in sequence for 30 straight 10/10s, you'd finish in 360 hours. Except, you can't, because there are 145. Let's say though that you manage to find the one you're looking for 1 in every 145 attempts, essentially perfectly tuned RNG. 52,200 hours (145x30x12). 6 years at 24 hours a day of play. Independently wealthy? Great, you're done in 9 years. 

Normal players? Regale your family of the 4 decades spent playing a game 4 hours a day to gear one hero and five relics with 10/10 mods. Mention that lesser men and women, only able to dedicate an average of 2 hours a day, spent their full lives replicating this monumental achievement. First sharing their progress with their schoolyard friends, then college buddies, then their spouses and children and grand children and in some cases, great-grandchildren. Because drop rates were fine. And that one guy in the insane asylum who did not get the right 10/10 every 145 10/10 drops, and instead spent the first forty years of his life getting Skelebooms? He just wasn't doing it right. He was in the normal world where he'd need about 675 to drop to be as close to certain as you can get he got the one he wanted.

Or, perhaps, some significant multiple of the current drop rate is appropriate unless we want to discard the idea of completing a single character and 5 relics with full quality mods within someone's normal lifetime. 

:)

(Side note, even if you want to count 9/10s as perfect, actual probability to get the 30 you want right now would require 5,785 hours of play, > 2 years spent playing the game at a heavy schedule, and that's using your shortest time estimate. That by itself is an unreasonable number, even if you're fine counting 9/10 as perfect)

@RustyCounterweight quote:

I generally find a 9/10 or 10/10 mod every 30-40 games .   It takes me up to 7 minutes to complete a CVII map, meaning that I find one perfect mod (on average) every 210-280 minutes of game play (about 3.5-4.6 hours).  Half of the 9/10 and 10/10 mods that I have found have been good mods and the other half were useless.   

As a result, I believe that the drop rates are fine.    If the drop rates were increased in a noticeable way then I am confident that I could have all of my characters using 10/10 mods in every item withing in a month or two.


Before messing with the drop rates, it might be a better idea alter how better mods scale so that not having a perfect mod doesn't mean that your mods is complete junk.


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@Juicebags quote:

I found a 10/10 Hero Damage Buff chip a few days ago. It had been 19 days and 203 hours played since my last perfect mod drop. So 10+ hours a day for 19 days? Ya RNG sucks but would anyone here not agree that this is just too rare? This also included 31 hours of playing coop with my wife where I completely intended on swiping her perfect mods. Now this last run was way more grueling then most, and RNG hates me, but real numbers.

You should think yourself lucky hell I envy your luck.


On average I play dd2 8-14 hours a day I also play split screen and just leave the second controller idle because I don't have the best gear it takes 9-10 minutes per c7 map.


Here comes the motivation killer I have only obtained 1 perfect MOD over the span of 30 day's and that was a accumulator servo, but here's the awesome part I have gained enough gold to buy a perfect hero health chip and perfect fire servo.

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@Juicebags quote:


@RustyCounterweight quote:

  If the drop rates were increased in a noticeable way then I am confident that I could have all of my characters using 10/10 mods in every item withing in a month or two.

Personally I think two months to gear all your heroes for a hardcore player like yourself is really a good number. At some point you have to consider yourself geared and start pushing end game and climbing floors. I mean it doesn't take 2 months to do say 30+ Ancient Power resets, it shouldn't  take two months to find your gear if you are blasting out 7 minute maps. Now imagine how long it would take 75%+ of the player base. So I 100% agree with your disagreement. Emoji_Kobalt.png 

Funny thing is eventually a huge change like that would lead back to when c5 and c7 were end game. Somewhere along the lines you would be max geared and have nothing left to do and get bored :P

Personally I like the carrot on the stick, gives me something to continue to shoot for, but the difference with me is I couldn't be bothered to care about Onslaught anymore, did the push, did a few resets, now Im going back to c7 to make a home again. I might have cared to have max mods drop more if there was a point in Onslaught but once you pass 80 and confirm that you can do all the resets there just is no reward or reason to go any higher, also not appearing on the leaderboards makes shooting for the stars kind of moot xD I love it, I'm back before leaderboards were a thing again and the game is fun :)

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A gilded shard is a carrot on a stick. you get the individual shards that you are chasing to combine into a gilded shard.

MODs are just a lottery. Nothing to chase. Nothing to work for. Just luck.

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Mods are no more a lottery than shards. Currently, I have a relic for FA that has 2 perfect mods and a 7/10 (I think) anti-melee, and over time while I get xp in c7 a better anti-melee might drop. Now that isn't my focus of doing c7 but rather a side effect of running them. If I ever decide I need another def rate gilded then I will continue to also passively look for a better anti-melee. Since mods are always dropping I don't have to focus on them as long as I'm in a tier in which they drop. I can start with 1/10 mods on a relic and slowly get better drops improving that relic. I'm also willing to bet those players that are farming for def rates and claiming that it never drops after 1500 maps would also say Shards are a lottery, its all perspective.

I don't feel gilded shards are enough incentive to me to be a carrot, I've finished resets and they only have half a purpose now, slightly better numbers for a massive cost. Would I like gilded rates in all my defenses, sure, but will I ever need that, probably not.

Now, they haven't said anything about the next expansion yet but Trendy will need to do something to continue to hold interest and letting us have easier access to having all max mods isn't going to make anyone stay. Why have this if people are already saying that Onslaught is getting stale? If they don't make equally difficult content then all these max mods will make the game stale because of over empowering players. Then the flip side, if they do make new content that is equally difficult to handle the max mods and Ancient Powers and Talent Caps, they just made content that no new player will touch for a very long time. This is a double edged sword, no matter which way you swing it, someone gets hurt.

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Onslaught doesn't end. It will never be back to C7. Ascension provides incremental increases. Different map configurations make new floors possible. If you reach your personal limit, congratulations - It's ok for that point in a game to exist in order to make achieving a minor gearing goal possible in a person's lifetime.

@Exglint quote:

Somewhere along the lines you would be max geared and have nothing left to do and get bored :P


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They are far more a lottery than shards. A gilded, fully leveled shard is the equivalent to a 10/10 mod. The drop chance for most shards is 2%-3%. Get one 11 times and you have a 10/10. At 2.5%, every 1,820 shards of that tier you're 99% certain to have a gilded version. 7 minute maps, 1.3 shards per map at optimal farm, you're 90% certain to have the shard you want with around 160 hours of farming. Far less for 90% certainty, or if you acquire them a different way (shard packs via medals etc.)

That's a plan you can put into action and it will work. You'll have the shard you're looking for, gilded, at the end.

With a 10/10 dropping every 12 hours of heavy farming, it's 8,100 hours to be 99% certain of a single 10/10 if you are farming c7. 1,020 hours if you're farming the smallest possible mod pool where you have a deck of all the same hero and are farming c1. Those are hours spent playing, not hours across a calendar. 

That's plainly more of a lottery.

Shards also can't be moved around freely, so you don't really have a mod after 8,100 hours, you have an attribute on a relic you have to destroy if you want to try something else. Why anyone would defend this system on any merit other than just saying "We shouldn't be able to get the 10/10s we're looking for. That's a goal we should never achieve" puzzles me, because that is the system we have right now. It's impossible.

@Exglint quote:

Mods are no more a lottery than shards. 


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We should be complaining about bosses being too tough or game modes being too difficult. Since there are no tough bosses and game modes are limited, instead we are yappin on about MOD drops, because the only true "endgame" we have is collecting 10/10 MODS.... 

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@Juicebags quote:


@RustyCounterweight quote:

  If the drop rates were increased in a noticeable way then I am confident that I could have all of my characters using 10/10 mods in every item withing in a month or two.

Personally I think two months to gear all your heroes for a hardcore player like yourself is really a good number. At some point you have to consider yourself geared and start pushing end game and climbing floors. I mean it doesn't take 2 months to do say 30+ Ancient Power resets, it shouldn't  take two months to find your gear if you are blasting out 7 minute maps. Now imagine how long it would take 75%+ of the player base. So I 100% agree with your disagreement. Emoji_Kobalt.png 

Yep yep. I definitely agree. I dread to think that I have to take a year or two to gear all my heroes up.....

Grinding onslaught for stuff like AP, def packs, gold, XP and getting perfect MODS as side rewards about every 10 hours might sound ok to some (as you're pre-occupied) however.....when you target farm and it takes 10 hours or more to get what you want, or worse, not what you want, that's, as Jaws_420 put it, "Nucking Futs".

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@MaJean quote:

We should be complaining about bosses being too tough or game modes being too difficult. Since there are no tough bosses and game modes are limited, instead we are yappin on about MOD drops, because the only true "endgame" we have is collecting 10/10 MODS.... 

I never even made it to the part where you farm mods. I couldn't pass chaos 4 Emoji_GobHuntress.png

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@Plasma quote:


@MaJean quote:

We should be complaining about bosses being too tough or game modes being too difficult. Since there are no tough bosses and game modes are limited, instead we are yappin on about MOD drops, because the only true "endgame" we have is collecting 10/10 MODS.... 

I never even made it to the part where you farm mods. I couldn't pass chaos 4 Emoji_GobHuntress.png

You are kidding...right? he he

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I did log in this morning and check the player shops first thing, low an behold I won the lottery with  a purchase of a max tenacity at 100k . Honest 

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@MaJean quote:


@Plasma quote:


@MaJean quote:

We should be complaining about bosses being too tough or game modes being too difficult. Since there are no tough bosses and game modes are limited, instead we are yappin on about MOD drops, because the only true "endgame" we have is collecting 10/10 MODS.... 

I never even made it to the part where you farm mods. I couldn't pass chaos 4 Emoji_GobHuntress.png

You are kidding...right? he he

Alas, no. You fellas are complaining about a worse thing but I never got past shard farming. It's quite similar because from what I hear an optimal way to farm for certain mods like Tenacity is to spam lower difficulties. I swear Trendy has a morbid fascination with forcing players into being in lower difficulties as long as possible. Maybe they have a secret deal with Netflix or Youtube. That would make a lot of sense.

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@Plasma quote:


@MaJean quote:


@Plasma quote:

8

@MaJean quote:

We should be complaining about bosses being too tough or game modes being too difficult. Since there are no tough bosses and game modes are limited, instead we are yappin on about MOD drops, because the only true "endgame" we have is collecting 10/10 MODS.... 

I never even made it to the part where you farm mods. I couldn't pass chaos 4 Emoji_GobHuntress.png

You are kidding...right? he he

Alas, no. You fellas are complaining about a worse thing but I never got past shard farming. It's quite similar because from what I hear an optimal way to farm for certain mods like Tenacity is to spam lower difficulties. I swear Trendy has a morbid fascination with forcing players into being in lower difficulties as long as possible. Maybe they have a secret deal with Netflix or Youtube. That would make a lot of sense.

its similar in concept but you would first need to triple the number then multiply that by each of the 10 mod qualities wieghted factor.

In real numbers you are talking about a difference of 2% drop rate for specific shard vs closer to a 0.001% rate for the specific perfect mod.


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I'd like to see MODS reduced to 5 bars only, evenly distributed stats (25%/50%/75%/100% of max value for that tier) with appearance rate distributed across them to give you an overall better chance of getting a perfect, but at least the perfect ones aren't trash e.g. 0.5/0.25/0.1/0.01 chance modifier.

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Rate is getting doubled. I realize this is only phase 1, but it's far, far, far too small an adjustment. They could publish drop rates and put some of the speculation to rest, but we're still talking hundreds of in-game hours spent trying to get 1 single, specific, 10/10 out of a pool of 19 mods if you're targeting something that drops at c1.

1 10/10. And, if you need something like... Anti-Miniboss? Welcome back to thousands of hours of game time.

Is the goal of 10/10s to make them largely unobtainable? 

I mean, this is the crux: I don't want to have to sit like a vulture on the Discord marketplace to get into a post-apocalyptic style bidding war over a 10/10 of value. I want to play the game, and have a path to earn the things I want. When a game telegraphs to you that your time is worth little to nothing to them, by making goals you'd set (like 1 hero with 10/10s and say, 5 10/10 relics) impossible, then I wonder why I'm devoting my time and money.

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@Unleashed quote:

-snip-

This is an issue that gained a lot of traction within a week. It's something we spent a good chunk of time investigating over two days to come up with a good short term solution, and as mentioned, there is more coming. We'll be keeping an eye on drop rates after this patch and after our update to see if it needs to be cranked up even more. It would be incredibly cavalier and reckless to change the drop rates any more drastic than what we're doing, as it could potentially ruin how it feels to actually get one, oversaturate the market, make them worthless, and then any nerf brought provides even more negative backlash. It'd just be a bad decision for everyone.

While it's not best to measure how often you see an item drop in time, I can tell you that actively playing hundreds of hours to see a single 10/10 mod drop is not anywhere close to the intended time we'd expect players to see one. In fact, we know that it's not what the average player runs into, but have personally experienced what it feels like to be an outlier and extreme outlier (we did some rigorous testing over two entire days of running sims). Players that have not ran into this issue usually do not come give feedback to point out it doesn't feel good, because to them, the system is working and doesn't warrant a response (though there are some who have come saying it feels good to them in this thread and others). We want to make that feeling standard, with no outliers, so we're giving a ONE WEEK turn around change based on player feedback to help make things better in the short term (something that we think sets us apart from a lot of games), while we work on a more complex fix to ensure the system feels substantially better. Even after all these increases and changes, we'll monitor and see if we need to increase it even more.

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@LAWLTA quote:


@Unleashed quote:

-snip-

 We want to make that feeling standard, with no outliers, so we're giving a ONE WEEK turn around change based on player feedback to help make things better in the short term (something that we think sets us apart from a lot of games), while we work on a more complex fix to ensure the system feels substantially better. Even after all these increases and changes, we'll monitor and see if we need to increase it even more.

Sorry if you get tagged from the quote I know you hate that. This right here is why I have played this game for years. The dev team behind this game actually listens to feedback and looks into issues the community brings up all the time. 

Thank you to all of trendy for such a quick response to this. In game chats we weren't expecting any changes until the next major patch if at all. Its good to know its on your radar to monitor as well and of course after seeing it and giving it a few hundred hours of grinding in game if it still feels off we will make a new post with updated feedback as well :)

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@LAWLTA quote:
@Unleashed quote:

-snip-

While it's not best to measure how often you see an item drop in time, I can tell you that actively playing hundreds of hours to see a single 10/10 mod drop is not anywhere close to the intended time we'd expect players to see one. In fact, we know that it's not what the average player runs into, but have personally experienced what it feels like to be an outlier and extreme outlier (we did some rigorous testing over two entire days of running sims). 

Agreed, and it's not what I run into either. 10/10s drop. I see one every few days at the worst. It's targeting a specific 10/10 that would require hundreds to thousands of hours. A 10/10 Skeleboom is worse than getting a 1/10 Skeleboom or an 8/10 anti-miniboss, because (irrationally I know as it doesn't affect future drop chances) you feel like you just wasted your 10/10 drop. 

I appreciate the need to not flood the market and then after future changes have to also then draw it back. It's fair that I was looking for too much from this first change. I read it as a sign of "this seems like a better number" rather than "it's only been a week, we want to do something now to hold over for a real solution." Mea culpa, and thank you for wanting and acting on something so quickly.

Is there a downside to publishing the actual drop rates? It would be so much easier to give feedback if we weren't estimating based off of limited data. One person's impression could be wildly different from another's.

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@LAWLTA quote:

[[16703,users]]
quote:

-snip-

-snip-

I truly understand your approach to this issue and we thank you as a community to address this issue. Also, was anything considered regarding colors or MOD image, so it easier to distinguish every MOD level? I'm having a really hard time to figure out if something is a 8/10 or 9/10... I tried to change my colors on my monitor, but it's not obvious enough to figure out.

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