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Juicebags

High Quality MODS Are Too Rare!

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First off would like to apologize for the sloppy wall of text, I am not a fan of reading these crazy long posts yet here I go making one.

Finding a perfect or near perfect mod that is actually usable will drive you to the edge of insanity. This has, in turn, blown out the value of these items making them absurdly expensive to buy from another player.

Let's do some math. I am currently at 42 Ancient Power levels with a 210% gold bonus. With this in mind I am earning roughly 200k gold per Chaos 7. The last "high end" Banjaxed mod (9/10) that I was tracking sold for 90 million gold. Yup 90 million. Now granted this is on the absurdly high end as an example, yet did indeed happen. This means I would have to do 450 Pirate maps (with my current earnings) to earn enough gold through normal play to compete with buying this mod.

Now why on earth did this person pay 90 million gold for this mod? Easy, they thought they had a better chance at earning that 90 million gold back, then they did of finding the mod on their own. 

Here is a few real examples of pricing from buyers and sellers in the official DD2 Discord marketplace. With the number of maps it would take me, with 42 AP bonuses stacked, to earn that much gold.

10/10 Anti Support Servo - 34 million gold (170 Maps)

10/10 Fire Chip - 26 million gold (130 Maps)

10/10 Single Shot Chip - 21 Million Gold (105 Maps)

10/10 Shackled - 100 Million (500 Maps)

Now of course Trendy has stated that they want these high end mods to be really special like getting Ultimate ++ gear in DD1 was. In my opinion this has been taken to an extreme as I personally decked out all of my heroes in Ultimate ++ gear in the amount of time I have spent grinding these mods. At the moment though I don't have a single hero with anywhere near all perfect mod set ups. 

In my experience you don't feel special when you find a perfect mod, you feel like you just won the lottery.

Yesterday I talked my wife into running matches with me (Now don't tell her, I was gonna steal her perfect mods if she found any) We took 40 boat rides over the course of about a 8 hour grind. During this time between the two of us the highest quality Pirate mod we found was a 4/10 and the highest quality non pirate mod was a 5/10. Now of course luck is a factor, and I have none. However, it is very frustrating spending that much time grinding and the only reward we get at the end of the day is some gold and Defender Medals. This of course is just a small example, as I have done this same thing 100 times over.

I also understand that perfect mods are not required to progress through the game. However, as gamers, there is a need vs want situation. Since this is a game, and we are playing it to have fun, want will always beat need.

I personally have only found (4) 10/10 mods that I am actually using since mods became a thing. (Don't actually look at my hours or it will make you sad) Of course at least 75% of all 8/10+ mods that I find are mods not worth using. I personally have (6) 10/10 Drain Aura Mods which imo is one of the worst mods in the game. I also have a bunch of higher quality unique mods, however, their usability is very limited as there are only so many towers you can use Unique on. If a skeleton only map ever comes we will all have an auto win, as I know dozens of players that are just vendoring Anti Skeleton mods as there is just not a use for them.

In my mind, one way to fix the frustration issue without changing the insanely absurd low drop rates. Make mods farmable. Now I am not talking the notion of going back in tiers to limit the drop pool, as this is way too small of a tweak. I am talking make it so this mod drops here, that mod drops there. Give us a place to farm to get a specific mod. Now I know there are people out there that will say, oh well I got this 10/10 Anti Melee on my first ever map. To you I say how does it feel to waste your one crazy luck moment of your life on a game when you could have just bought a lottery ticket and been a millionaire. 

Things just feel that rare.

I love my grind games, but has the grind gone to an unrealistic level? Let's all be honest here, the more players that come to DD2 the better it is for all of us. With a larger player base Trendy will make more profits and we will get more content. Isn't this what we all want? Now ask your self, if this was your first experience with DD2, would the rng on rng on rng stacking between shards, mods type and mod quality entice you to put in a thousand hours?

I apologize again for the wall of text and all the angst, I had to go back and try to remove any emotion out of much of this post :P

What you all think? and.... Happy Hunting!

edit: I realize this is a tough topic for everyone, but please keep this thread open by keeping responses respectful!

edit: changed title to appease grammar police! (JK :kappa:)

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@Juicebags quote:

I am talking make it so this mod drops here, that mod drops there. Give us a place to farm to get a specific mod. 

I'm against this. Forcing people to already farm specific maps for specific material is already bad for the health of the game. All they need to do is increase the drop rate slightly or make the mods % value below rank 7 mean something. I honestly have no clue which dev thought the mod value of anything below 7 = near minimum roll in stats. It absolutely makes no sense, the reason why we seek top tier mod is because anything ELSE IS GARBAGE.

People wouldn't be complaining as much if the mods rolled value base off their rank.

Rank 1 should be 10%, rank 5 = 50%, rank 10 = 100% of their maximum value for that specific mod.

It shouldn't be rank 7 and below =  1-10%

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Valid point and I agree! There could be many different ways to address this mod rarity issue for sure. I am just hoping anything will happen to change the current situation

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I definitely agree with this. The RNG, in my opinion has gone "a bit" much. The RNG for shards doesn't seem appealing now that gilding is here. And, I've already stopped looking for perfect mods so any perfect one that I come across is somewhat a side reward and yeah, it does feel like you won a lottery. This have gone to the point where I got used to it and also somewhat cool about it. But, on the other hand, it doesn't feel right.

And I actually like the idea of certain M.O.D.S dropping at specific places. Well, that due to me still wanting some feel of the days of Nightmare where loot drops at specific maps.

Would be really nice if something is done about this either way. And also I definitely would wish to be able to craft shards too.

Great post there Juice! Don't worry about the wall of text there, it's pretty decent :) I've seen those that are way longer, and I have to admit that even I did made several that are very long!


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I have a lot to say on this matter, Ill have to spend time to draft up a full response later. In short I fully agree.

MODs have no way to targeted farm them (pirate mods come the closest here). If you see a highly sought after mod drop theres no gaurentee that you will ever see that drop again.

This quality alone makes them priceless. No amount of gold is worth a good mod. A lot of people have started to realize this and horde good mods.

They successfully made a grind thats so much worse then grinding shards, while at the same time giving us hours of inventory management of selling trash (all qualities but green) mods.

I farm 30-50 maps on my farming days and clean my inventory out at least twice. Im lucky if I see a perfect mod every few days, and 9 times out of ten its a useless trash mod like anti skeleton servo.

The rng trash mod system is killing the game. To be honest not sure not sure how much more I want to play inventory defenders 2: isle of vendor trash

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I agree with you completely Juicebags. The perfect mod drops are too few and far between. They could effectively double the top tier drop rates - and perfect mods would still be super rare. This unrewarding experience, is amplified by the fact, that you manually have to go through: 

Each.

And.

Every.

Trash.

Mod.

You. 

Find.

We need some filtering system, sifting through junk for that one in a million gold nugget like a masochist, is only interesting for so long. Please TE raise the drop rates just a tad, and give us a filter, so we don´t have to look at each individual MOD drop please...


M.

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In my honest opinion they have taken the RNG + RNG + RNG waaaay too far, here's a small disclaimer I have a serious hate for RNG so I'm more inclined to display hatred towards RNG.


It would be faster to grind out 5 ancient resets to obtain 10% more defence power than it would be to grind out 10 gilded destruction shards now that's just ridiculous essentially finishing the game 5 times is faster than gilding a few shards.


In its current state Dungeon Defenders 2 feels like one of the idle games that are on mobiles, I have 1.5k hours on dd2 and 80% of my time on do2 was AFK farming something but i continue to play dd2 because I like the core game the tower defence aspect.


To me ancient reset is the best of a bad situation you can reset for guaranteed buffs or spend the same amount of time hoping to get a single mod.


I know I went a bit off topic but I 100% agree good mods need to be easier to obtain I care how its done.

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What is even more frustrating is going through every and single mod. We should have a slider telling the game to pick up mods from that quality and upwards. For example slider from 1 to 10 and choose 8 so game picks up from 8 and up.

Moreover a conjuction with a slider of item quality, for example 95% of primary stats and up, so even if you get a lower quality mod but that flying unicorn of a 99% item you still keep it.

Third, WHY THE HELL there is no sell all items in the Scavenger????

Fourth, WHY THE HELL there is no Shard vault similar to materials one????

I agree with JB that it could be a good idea to make them farmable in a specific map, but LordK4G3 also has a valid point this could make the game more reapeatble than ot already is. Point is, this has to be dealt with. Its absurd, that someone with JBs time in the game has only got 4 100% quality mods!!! 4??? And having to go through every one of them every time??? I remember Lawlta saying one time, “we don’t want our game to be item management but people actually playing the game” ... should I say what game it is now? Because if you don’t call it Item Management simulator I don’t know how it can be called

Keep the 4 different mod qualities so people can differentiate between them easily, 1-7 into 1, 8, 9 and 10, keep the same drop rates or slightly increase 8, 9, 10 and actually give different colors between them, red, orange, yellow, and green.

As fun and interesting this game is, all this qwerks are killing it for me

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Agreed.  I have played 8 hours a day (with maybe three days off) since the mods patch and I have found two fully green mods in total.   Neither was any use.  I also think there is too big a difference between a fully green mod and all the other colours which are basically identical.

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Since 1-8 are so close in power they're basically 1 rank compared to the power of 9/10 and 10/10. In this scenario why have those 8 ranks of inconsequential gains when you can instead have a simple Tier 1/2/3 system.

I am a fan of keeping the 1-10 but introducing a new linear gain of power across the ranks
Tier 1: 10% of the mods power
Tier 5: 50% of the mods power
Tier 10: 100% of the mods power

In the case of mods such as tenacity 10/10 would still be significant while making 9/10 not such a bad alternative.

And we SERIOUSLY need mod filtering. Highlight the highest mod's color around the items icon, add a filter in autoloot bags, bypass my audio settings and blast Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up in its entirety through my speakers every time a green mod drops, I don't care how as long as I am painfully aware when they drop or I possess one.


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I do agree that the drop rates are a bit low.

As for the prices, I think it's due to finding it there and then.

With this undercutting doesn't happen. So when somebody does have a rare item then they can sell it at whatever price they want because theroiritcaly there is no competition with other players. 

I mean the chance of 2 people in the same instance is like 0000000.1%.


But if, for example, you could do a search for mods, and it will show listings of all the mods for sale that players have then the prices be cheaper as everyone will be undercutting each other to sell there mod first. Probs not by much but you know, cheaper than 90 mill.


Another thing is as well, that you can get this high end green mod and when you AP reset you have the fun of rebuilding it back up again :D

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@Ratheil quote:

Since 1-8 are so close in power they're basically 1 rank compared to the power of 9/10 and 10/10. In this scenario why have those 8 ranks of inconsequential gains when you can instead have a simple Tier 1/2/3 system.

I am a fan of keeping the 1-10 but introducing a new linear gain of power across the ranks
Tier 1: 10% of the mods power
Tier 5: 50% of the mods power
Tier 10: 100% of the mods power

In the case of mods such as tenacity 10/10 would still be significant while making 9/10 not such a bad alternative.

And we SERIOUSLY need mod filtering. Highlight the highest mod's color around the items icon, add a filter in autoloot bags, bypass my audio settings and blast Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up in its entirety through my speakers every time a green mod drops, I don't care how as long as I am painfully aware when they drop or I possess one.


I am not a fan of the 10 tier loot. Thats 9 tiers of trash to sort through. That amount of diversity is a big part of our inventory problem.

I love the 3 tier solution btw. And lets even keep it weighted drops. (just throwing numbers out) Tier 1 has a 60% the chance to drop, tier 2 has 35% the chance to drop and tier 3 has a 5% chance to drop. With the amount of mods, and the very small pool of good mods this would still require an incredible  amount of farming per mod. 


Also can we address the absurd pristine cluster requirements for c8 gear.  We get 1-2 per map. You want 250 per c8 piece, we need to make multiple c8 relics at end game to keep pushing. So AFKng c7 dungeon maps hundreds of times is the intended gameplay here?

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Sometimes I wonder if Trendy thinks their game will last up to ten years. Lets say it does last ten years, I am 100% certain that if I play non stop in those 10 years, I won't still have 1 hero maxed out. I mean 100% value on every mod, not just random mod but specific important ones and gilded shards.

I also wonder whats the point of all this locking of items behind extreme rng. What do they think will happen if items are easier to get? that we would quit after we get all of them? If I can be sure that in 1 month, I can max out 1 hero, then I would be joyful and think of focusing on the end game which is onslaught or trying different builds. Trendy can also focus on making more end game content. But we are still going back and forth for years about item management and amount of grind.

DD1 did not have all of these things (mods, shards and so on) yet if you ask me to pick one, I would still pick DD1 you know why? Because everything works, all defenses works for all enemies, you don't have to worry about these mutators. Now they've made more interesting and unique towers but in order to use them effectively, on end game onslaught, you need good mods which are locked behind 100x extreme RNG. So the only game we are really playing here is ITEM MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, the TOWER DEFENSE we think we are playing is just to get more items that we can manage in the real game.

I must say, I am glad that I joined the game earlier when it was new and got a lot of shards and items, If not I think I would have quit the moment I realize what am getting into If I was a new player.


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i agree with juice , i am also sick of looking through an entire bag of blue items to see if i have a good mod. my last bag auto collects blue items and will almost be full after 3 maps , so much junk to look through. I am done resetting at AP 19 with 998 talent caps and i am sick of farming plain motes to upgrade my tinkered gear . i will never get my armor sets upgraded unless i end up buying a few hundred plain motes i guess. i know its a grinding game but jeez , i have to watch twitch while i play to keep from being bored out of my mind lol. 

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I agree - I'm a masochist when it comes to what I'll tend to do in a game to get the things I want, but the M.O.D. system is ridiculous, and for more than just RNG. The fact that M.O.D.s also require you to level the item to match the chaos level before transfer is another layer of "isn't punishment fun?"

There are a handful of features which seem to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to player retention. This one has to be way up there for players who move from mostly casual to actually wanting to move into high-end play. 

They can argue that their design choices have merit and why they're good, and in large part they'd be right. This is mostly a great game. But the things that are off are kryptonite to player growth and the numbers tell the tale. Think of the variety of ways in which they actually penalize playing together and penalize advancement. Add on to that the M.O.D. rng for those willing to persist through both...

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@Scorpion449 quote:

Sometimes I wonder if Trendy thinks their game will last up to ten years. Lets say it does last ten years, I am 100% certain that if I play non stop in those 10 years, I won't still have 1 hero maxed out. I mean 100% value on every mod, not just random mod but specific important ones and gilded shards.

I also wonder whats the point of all this locking of items behind extreme rng. What do they think will happen if items are easier to get? that we would quit after we get all of them? If I can be sure that in 1 month, I can max out 1 hero, then I would be joyful and think of focusing on the end game which is onslaught or trying different builds. Trendy can also focus on making more end game content. But we are still going back and forth for years about item management and amount of grind.

I think this is a great point. I have a stable full of heroes I'm unlikely to touch, maybe ever, because hunting down extremely rare items to support a variety of builds at a pwr level capable of tackling the content I can by focusing on a small core is just too daunting. Between the AP reset mechanics and this, building around 1-2 core defenses and throwing whatever on everything else is the way to go. This has to be hurting the bottom line and perceived value of cash shop purchases.

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I've got to say, I agree as well.  It's not just all 10/10 mods.  Trendy knows which mods are the more desired, and they scale the drop rate on those really low.

They do the same thing with the high-demand shards.  Anyone remember the Destruction shards before the power/crit changes were made?  I used to sell them for gold because I had so many in my bag that I didn't need them.  Now...I've been farming them for 6 weeks and haven't gotten one.

I get that the best gear you want to be rare.  I don't want everyone to have fully guilded sets on 20 heroes within 2 weeks of hitting C7.  But, the rarity of this top stuff is too much.  It needs to be scaled down some, or give us a way to target specific mods/items.

I want to grind ONS floors.  Instead, I'm spending weeks grinding C1-C3 for mods, shards, and motes (that's a whoooole other issue that's frustrating as heck).  Frankly, I'm getting tired of AFK floors, and my desire to play is waning.


(side request - can we get rid of the color scales?  I'm colorblind.  I can't tell if I have a 8/10 or a 10/10.  Sucks when you level one up to C7, only to find out it doesn't have the stats of a 10/10 that you thought it would)

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Some good ideas here for sure! Hopefully we can get some sort of reprieve to the grind in the future!

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@Rentard quote:

(side request - can we get rid of the color scales?  I'm colorblind.  I can't tell if I have a 8/10 or a 10/10.  Sucks when you level one up to C7, only to find out it doesn't have the stats of a 10/10 that you thought it would)

You can hold back or select to see the stat range of the mod if it's Max then you know its 10/10 then you can upgrade it freely.


I know it's not exactly efficient but there's still a way to determine its grade.

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Maybe if we're lucky Trendy would allow us to upgrade MODS in the future to 10/10 perfect.  But if it's going to be anything like getting a relic from c7 to c8, forget it.  As a casual gamer, I don't have that much time for upgrading but I would like better gear (don't we all?).   

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what i really like to see is a way to "split" or transfer mods without destroy relic.... let say you have an 10/10 9/10, 9/10 relic, the only way to upgrade this is overwrite a 9/10 mod...

or let say you have two perfect mods on a relic but you mistaken and don't want have those two together, you can only transfer both or transfer one and destroy the other

dont know if you know what i mean... sorry for my english

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@Juicebags quote:Now of course Trendy has stated that they want these high end mods to be really special like getting Ultimate ++ gear in DD1 was. In my opinion this has been taken to an extreme as I personally decked out all of my heroes in Ultimate ++ gear in the amount of time I have spent grinding these mods.

My experience with Ultimate++ armour drops in DD1 is somewhere around 1 for every 1k hours in game with a fairly high percentage of my time spent farming since I only use self-farmed gear. (I have a total of 4 pieces to date with one of those being a troll piece which is basically a glorified Ultimate.) I will definitely not put in the required hours to farm even 1 Ultimate++ set, and as a matter of fact don't even have all my main heroes in full Ultimate sets.

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