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Okielos

AP grind

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Okay, so I took the plunge and started AP resets. Only on number 2 working on number 3. I'm curious what everyone thinks the best way to grind them out is, aside from spending millions of gold and tons of mats upgrading gear.

I don't mind the grind, and if that's what it takes then so be it. But if there are any suggestions to shorten it then I certainly wouldn't mind the advice. 

My minimum ascension is above 250, so at least I don't have that to worry about.

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@Okielos quote:

I don't mind the grind, and if that's what it takes then so be it. But if there are any suggestions to shorten it then I certainly wouldn't mind the advice. 

My minimum ascension is above 250, so at least I don't have that to worry about.


Here it is in a nutshell. I bet nobody really thinks AP resetting is a fun game mechanic. It´s just something we have to deal with. It´s like having just one piece of gum and chewing it over and over. For the devs it´s a way to stretch out limited content. For players it´s a necessary evil and only way to progress. People rush through it, to get it over with.

Even people who claim to like the AP reset aspect, think of ways to shorten it, what does that tell you? And tell me this:

Why would I want to reset my progress now, after I have aquired materials for and upgraded several C8 relics, that took an insane amount of hours to grind for?

Sad thing about it is, that there is not even a point to it. What is the reason for all this resetting? To be able to climb higher in onslaught? Ok then, what for? There are no unique rewards after the old 114 floor flair. No special boss map that unlocks at a certain floor. No special game modes, that unlock at a certain floor.

Trendy it´s time we spit out the old chewing gum and bring in something new. There is no longevity in making people play through the same content over and over like hamsters in a wheel. At least not, when there is no clear reason, as to why we are doing it. 

It´s time you guys let us in on why we should keep playing, keep gaining Ancient Power, and keep climbing Onslaught. What´s the deal? Where are the real bosses? Where is nightmare mode? Where are godly items? 

M.

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I spend about 2m to upgrade a single relic and between 500k and 1m to upgrade some shards to a reasonable level. Then i just play Onslaught, equipping relics and armour. It's actually quite quick. Sure it costs 3m a reset but considering i can pull off at least 1 reset a day, it's reasonable.

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@Xuhybrid quote:

I spend about 2m to upgrade a single relic and between 500k and 1m to upgrade some shards to a reasonable level. Then i just play Onslaught, equipping relics and armour. It's actually quite quick. Sure it costs 3m a reset but considering i can pull off at least 1 reset a day, it's reasonable.

it takes me several days to reset /im at ap 16  and its starting to get even slower 

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@MaJean quote:Here it is in a nutshell.

Trendy is adding new content, but it's taking time. So in the meanwhile, just push onslaught floors, reset, or play another game.

Even adding a new map and boss every month wouldn't be enough. The OP players would beat the new content in no time. And after a couple of days not beating the new content, the other players would ask stronger players to carry them.

It takes 100 times more time to create new content than to play through it. So we'll spend 99% of the time waiting for new content anyway. The AP reset is an option to kill the time.

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@Ryzours quote:


@MaJean quote:Here it is in a nutshell.

Trendy is adding new content, but it's taking time. So in the meanwhile, just push onslaught floors, reset, or play another game.


What content is this, they are adding?

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@MaJean quote:What content is this, they are adding?

2 new maps, 2 new boss last month.

But I'm pretty sure you went through it in a matter of hours and got bored with it after a week. What should they do?

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2 more AP resets and i will have 20AP and 999 asc caps then i can.......


i have no idea , Trendy should be proud they got 2763 hours out of me though. Maybe i will see some of you in Appalachia next month :) 

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So, just doing the onslaught floors is the best route. That's kind of what I thought after going through the chaos tiers the first time and loot upgrades taking forever. Thanks for the info.

And for the rest........

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I play the game for more fun and enjoyment and with this new update, Trendy basically took away most of the grind. I didn't want to play the same C7 maps over and over again without thinking much about placement. To me onslaught was the beginning of the answer with the mutators. But then the difficulty level progression seemed so slow especially with the 3 map floors. I only had so much time. With the changes, the nice new minimum ascension, and an sliding scale of difficulty on each reset, it's not much of a grind for me. As of right now, I only take with me one defense and rebuild all of the other ones with whatever I collect. That's part of the fun for me. I set a goal to reset once a week. Yes, sometimes I do it way faster than that if I have time. I'm taking it easy and getting a chance to enjoy some of my other favorite games. Higher floor progression will come as I play.

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I upgrade my sword and 3 medallions after reset. The rest i use what ever i find. That is, now that i have 5 hereos gilded. I don't use hyper shards. I just reset yesterday and i'm fully geared with only a few mods to find before i get to 59. I'll probably reset tomorrow for the last time as i will have max caps.

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@024noi quote:

I upgrade my sword and 3 medallions after reset. The rest i use what ever i find. That is, now that i have 5 hereos gilded. I don't use hyper shards. I just reset yesterday and i'm fully geared with only a few mods to find before i get to 59. I'll probably reset tomorrow for the last time as i will have max caps.

must be nice to have 8+ mil per reset lol. 

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I have a second account so I just enter split screen and smash out as little as 1  or sometimes up to 3 resets in a day.


But if I don't use that method it's just like everyone else upgrade a few things and swap out the rest.

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@Pegazul quote:


@024noi quote:

I upgrade my sword and 3 medallions after reset. The rest i use what ever i find. That is, now that i have 5 hereos gilded. I don't use hyper shards. I just reset yesterday and i'm fully geared with only a few mods to find before i get to 59. I'll probably reset tomorrow for the last time as i will have max caps.

must be nice to have 8+ mil per reset lol. 

Don't cost 8 mill to up a sword and 3 relix and a few rate shards. The rest has been gilded.

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its 2 mil per campaign - c7 item not including the cost of ingredients. The last step alone is over 600k lol. 

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@Ryzours quote:
@MaJean quote:What content is this, they are adding?

2 new maps, 2 new boss last month.

But I'm pretty sure you went through it in a matter of hours and got bored with it after a week. What should they do?

Like I said, they could give us an incentive to push higher floors. Right now there is none. 

I´m not sure you understand the core of what I´m saying, I´m not debating that they should push maps out more frequently, I´m saying that the AP system is flawed. It´s not a fun game mechanic, especially since it requires you to reset your progression. The game is grindy enough as is. 

2 new maps? They where fun to explore the first couple of times, but are you saying that I should still get excited each time I open them? We need more game modes, not more maps. We need bosses or some reason to gather all this power. Right now we are just doing the same thing over and over... if this repetetive way of playing tickles your fancy, then good for you. 

I would like to be tested. I would like TE to explore more strategy modes. I would like PVP too, but that´s a whole different story. I would like player created challenges. I would like a giraffe on a treadmill on floor 200.

There are so many things, that could be done, to breathe more life into this game, and make it less repetitive. Right now everything in the game is like a chore.

It seems that TE is going all in on this AP reset thing. This is what they want the game to be, and it´s too late now, to argue about it. I think it was the wrong way to go. 

When I join pubs, nobody is enjoying the maps. They slap something down that kills mobs quickly, because they are in a hurry to get on with it, because they are "on their nth reset". 

Some people just afk, because they are OP and forced to play lower content - because it´s all a grind, other people join pubs for the sole reason of being carried through their next reset. 

Sad.

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I mean, ultimately the problem is that progression is based 50% on time spent, 40% on RNG luck, and 10% on skill/strategy. And I think Trendy recognizes this, and is trying to make how well you play matter more, with stuff like Onslaught mutators, Omega Waves, and sliding AP difficulty. However, because it is such a massive grind to max out gear, for a lot of the player base when content starts becoming more difficult, it doesn't feel like it's a challenge to how well you play, it feels like a challenge to how much you've played, and whether you've been lucky or not in loot drops.


I agree with what others have said. AP isn't fun. But I don't know that it's worth bringing up anymore. If Trendy was going to listen to the players who feel gear resets suck, they would have already, it's been said since AP came out. The last update would have been a perfect time to change it. They didn't, and it's not like they've given us any reason to hope they are going to.

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@Pegazul quote:

its 2 mil per campaign - c7 item not including the cost of ingredients. The last step alone is over 600k lol. 

Actually it don't cost 2 mill. I had less than 6 mill in bank last reset and i had gold left when all was said and done.

Edit: just upgraded a bow to see. From fresh reset campaign lvl to max c7 cost me just shy of 1.5 mill. For me that 10 maps. Takes more than that just to run onslaught ( especially if you paly every tenth floor to farm AP weapons ). Plus all the c7 maps to farm gear, buy the time im ready to reset, I've made my money back from the last one. It's the mind numbing lower tier mote farming required that bugs me.

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@MaJean quote:

Like I said, they could give us an incentive to push higher floors. Right now there is none. 

I´m not sure you understand the core of what I´m saying, I´m not debating that they should push maps out more frequently, I´m saying that the AP system is flawed. It´s not a fun game mechanic, especially since it requires you to reset your progression. The game is grindy enough as is. 

2 new maps? They where fun to explore the first couple of times, but are you saying that I should still get excited each time I open them? We need more game modes, not more maps. We need bosses or some reason to gather all this power. Right now we are just doing the same thing over and over... if this repetetive way of playing tickles your fancy, then good for you. 

I would like to be tested. I would like TE to explore more strategy modes. I would like PVP too, but that´s a whole different story. I would like player created challenges. I would like a giraffe on a treadmill on floor 200.

There are so many things, that could be done, to breathe more life into this game, and make it less repetitive. Right now everything in the game is like a chore.

It seems that TE is going all in on this AP reset thing. This is what they want the game to be, and it´s too late now, to argue about it. I think it was the wrong way to go. 

When I join pubs, nobody is enjoying the maps. They slap something down that kills mobs quickly, because they are in a hurry to get on with it, because they are "on their nth reset". 

Some people just afk, because they are OP and forced to play lower content - because it´s all a grind, other people join pubs for the sole reason of being carried through their next reset. 

Sad.

Feels nice to see somebody else say it.

Although regardless of how antithetical it is to the core of dd2, I would agree with Tolkmit when he says AP is here to stay. Removing it straight out would overjoy me (let those proud of their cheese cry) but the best thing that can happen is an overhaul. I'll cross my fingers but I ain't losing sleep.

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@Tolkmit quote:

I mean, ultimately the problem is that progression is based 50% on time spent, 40% on RNG luck, and 10% on skill/strategy. And I think Trendy recognizes this, and is trying to make how well you play matter more, with stuff like Onslaught mutators, Omega Waves, and sliding AP difficulty. However, because it is such a massive grind to max out gear, for a lot of the player base when content starts becoming more difficult, it doesn't feel like it's a challenge to how well you play, it feels like a challenge to how much you've played, and whether you've been lucky or not in loot drops.

I agree here. There should be more in the skill/strategy bucket versus time/maxed out gear. I think the reason why it doesn't feel like a massive grind for me right now is because I don't play with maxed out gear, I just need the right combinations of mods at this time. Maybe later it will affect me but for now I'm only at reset 20, Flr 58.

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This is an often debated topic here on the forums. For those knee deep in the AP reset cycle, any talk of changes is crazy - because they all have had to go all in. All those hours of grinding...any of us would be protective of that. 

However, the entire reset cycle was a huge misstep in design by TE IMO. Maybe it made sense at some earlier point in the game, when a different direction was being sought, i don't know. But whoever the lunatic was that decided in a loot collection and evolution game, where the variety of tower possibilities is one of the things promoted as a game advantage - it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to take those very things away on each reset. Basically they are telling you to never spend time upgrading and evolving anything you don't absolutely need - which if you are in the reset cycle, is only a handful of gear and towers. So much for all that item evolution. So much for all of those "choices". So you want me to evolve gear or not? You want me to play with more than one hero or not? If you are going to constantly knock down all the gear i purposely grinded for on C7 to avoid all that evolution costs - why get any gear? Why upgrade anything? Why ever play with any tower set apart from 3-4 ones? 

There is an inherent dichotomy here that is at odds with itself. And the longer they take to address it - the deeper the rift becomes - for both sides. I don't want those in the cycle to lose their progress or have that effort not rewarded appropriately. But at the same time - as long as all gear and relics reset each cycle - I WILL NEVER USE THE RESET CYCLE. If all my gear went back to campaign...i will go pick up another game instead. Seeing all my work for the last year disappear...for a few point bumps...does not sit well with this collector. At all. Variety is one of the things that brought me to this game. In most TD games - you have so very limited options. Placement spots pre-identified. Towers sets - 3 choices. When i saw DD1, and the fact that you can basically build anywhere, with multiple tower options - i fell in love with the game right away. The reset cycle rips the rug out from under that ideal. We are back to the boring 3 tower TD layout, and i have to grind to even do that. No thanks. 

There are other games out in the world who do understand this reset thing correctly, and have made wonderful systems for it, Stop modeling DD2 on COD. They are not the same game. Use a RPG model, as i think that is much more in alignment with the core spirit of this game. I have made this following example several times before, but here goes again... In the SRPG game Disgaea, they have one of the most robust leveling system i have ever seen in any game. Period. I challenge anyone to present a system with a deeper system. Anywhere. Go for it. I am a collector, and i 100%'d every single game i possible can, every since the days of Atari. The first game to break me - Disgaea. It has so much depth, there is no bottom. In their reset cycle, you can store up to 100,000 levels on any one character being reset. They do it for each hero, not all at once though, so a big difference right off. However, the core mechanic of the resets is - when you reset you go back to level one of that hero, and then depending on how many stored levels you have - you use those to increase the base stats of your hero, at level 1. So if you have a starting health of say 100 HP, yo can dump a ton of stored points into that to now start with say 10,000 HP. At level 1. Then, as you level up - you are inherently stronger due to the base stats that grow as you level up, in proportion to their starting values. No items or gear of any kind reset. To level up a hero, you just have to put them in the back of a current party, and they gain EXP even if they don't hit anyone. What i am getting at - it is incredibly effective, and satisfying. Two things not many are saying about the DD2 system right now... 

Stop the inventory murder. Stop taking away our freedom of tower use. 

And what are you exactly going to do with your 999 talent point caps??? DD2 has given you zero reasons to obtain such power. Just more Onslaught? No super medals, trophies, pets, weapons, or super hidden bosses to conquer. It is a means to no end. That makes zero sense. I like the fact that boss rushes have come - but that should be its own mode, and not just shoehorned into Onslaught like it was IMO. 

I am almost done with Mastery. Something i swore i would not do...but i am that bored with grinding. It's not particularly fun either. When i beat that, and have conquered the new maps enough to have the new mods i want at the levels i want...i will climb to Onslaught 45 for the flair....and honestly that will likely be the end of my DD2 experience, depending on what is released from now until then. Even out of sheer boredom - i will never reset with the current design. Pages and pages of leveled up gear....OMG. I wonder if TE is able to see how many people have left this game after they reset. I am sure there is a decent amount out there. On the forums i see a lot of heartache and instant regret form those who did it. 

To each their own. For those doing the resets - i applaud your dedication and time invested if you stuck with it. I am not sure what the middle ground is at this point, but TE needs to do something if they want to retain more than a handful of diehards. As a diehard myself, i am saddened my favorite game cannot seem to get this part right. I have a Disgaea game on deck, maybe its time to blow the dust off  of it then, and spend my next 1000 grinding hours with a game that will better reward that effort. Even once i reset. Here is hoping TE finds a way to make everyone happy. At a min - please do not carry this design over to DD3!!!!!!! Good luck to us all. Sharkman_insane.png

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There are goods and bads to the system but I think they could be improved upon:

1. Economy. A player who is only on Chaos 1-3 can probably make a decent buck selling motes to a reset player who just wants to get their gear back to C7 levels. The same is true for perfect mods since they can be upgraded and then transferred to an existing piece of gear. 

The problem? I need to grind, so I spend maybe 3 minutes in town before jumping back into a map. There is no time to sell my own stuff either unless I don't... play... the... game? I know people have a love/hate relationship with auction houses but boy if I could just drop my finds in an auction house or immediately purchase 200 motes at any time that sure would help. 


2. Gains per reset. If I reset where I am now, I'll gain about 50 ascension levels and a bunch of talent caps I haven't hit yet. But... I get 5% EXP, gold, and... 1 AP point? My bar currently says 60/30, so you know what I'd like? A choice.

a) I reset, and get 30 AP points. That's it. Back to level 1, no talent cap increases, just a bunch of new perks to level

b) I reset, and get 150% more EXP or gold permanently. Back to level 1, no AP points.

c) I reset, I get all those talent cap increases. Same deal as above.

d) I reset, I get all those ascension levels. 

The benefit? AP reset now has a significant impact. I'm still going to want to reset 5 times to get all of those bonuses, which is still a significant grind component to appease TE and their lust for making us re-level. It takes too long to see any benefit to AP until you've done it several times over, watching all of your progress disappear with each wipe. Then when I get to say, floor 100, now I'm 100/60, so getting another 40 AP points from one reset will be a big enough impact that yes, I would consider doing it. 


3. Chaos 8 gear. Once you can do AP resets, floor 30, you can finally have a chance of upgrading your gear. That just feels so... backwards? Don't get me wrong, I like the low drop chance, and look forward to my first dropping, but having these locked behind the threshold of when you can finally reset? Why? It feels like it should be a choice, either reset or try for C8 gear, but the drop rate is so low that you'd never want to upgrade anything to C8 until you're absolutely certain you're never going to AP reset. Hyper shards are very similar since you can't gild them. If you're resetting, these are wastes of space. 


From personal experience, I stopped playing when the switch came from Nightmare to Chaos tiers because my characters all felt so neutered. All those fun weapon mods were now shards, but did I get any of them to start playing with? No, we didn't. Oh those mods did still exist if I was willing to grind them back out again. You have nothing now, enjoy getting it all back. I'm trying to convince myself that an AP reset won't be that bad but I have that sinking feeling I'll immediately regret it. 

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@Racthoh quote:

3. Chaos 8 gear. Once you can do AP resets, floor 30, you can finally have a chance of upgrading your gear. That just feels so... backwards? Don't get me wrong, I like the low drop chance, and look forward to my first dropping, but having these locked behind the threshold of when you can finally reset? Why? It feels like it should be a choice, either reset or try for C8 gear, but the drop rate is so low that you'd never want to upgrade anything to C8 until you're absolutely certain you're never going to AP reset. Hyper shards are very similar since you can't gild them. If you're resetting, these are wastes of space. 

I don't know if the real floor is 30, but 30 is nothing..that's like 2 floors above beating C7. Maybe I have been lucky but I don't find the drop rate to be low. At least I have a chance now, I never had a chance before the update, I have gotten a fair number of C8 ampoules that I have down right wasted because I clicked wrong button. I probably have wasted about 20M in C8 ampoules. Wish there was a way to just lock them away in the vault so you cant use them. Once you reset a bunch of times, you don't feel the cost of upgrading hypershards.

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I just made a vid on how i do my resets. Only at 13 now but hey if you need some insight there ya go.






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