The end game grind is unhealthy and needs to be change.

The mod system currently is great and works as intended but the drop rate for max out or high level mods is garbage. You shouldn't expect a player to be putting in hundreds of hours to find a perfect rolled mod. That is just bad game design that cannot provide true end game. I'm not sure why the community rarely complains about it but if this was any other game. The forums would be full of complaints.

Ancient Power Reset - The Onslaught change was great but you are still forcing players to rush reset which in my opinion takes away from the core game play. Give us a reason to always push higher in onslaught every time we reset. Maybe give us a better bonus.

For example: (floor 35 = 1 reset, 70 = 2 reset, 105 = 3 reset) These numbers can be played with but you get the meaning behind it.

I find the current drop rates for high level mods to be just fine.   It might be a reasonable complaint to say that some of the scaling between the various qualities might need some work, but its farm from being "just bad game design".  

But being required to grind in order to find rare items (in this case mods) is something that I find fun and I would hate it if good mods were just handed to us in the same or a similar way that CVII gear is.  

Frankly, I find the decision to make high level mods have a low drop rate to be one of the best design choices that the devs made.

@RustyCounterweight quote:.   Frankly, I find the decision to make high level mods have a low drop rate to be one of the best design choices that the devs made.

ive played alot and i haven't gotten a good relic tenacity mod yet its ridiculous that ive not gotten one yet to me its 0% drop rate 

No mention of the shard grind?

While your post is a bit harsh, I agree that the grind the devs want players to do is unreasonable --- especially when almost all of the grind is faceroll content. That's the main issue I feel. Not so much that there is a big grind but that during the grind you are almost always tuned out and watching netflix or something. You are encouraged to play the most boring way possible because otherwise you are wasting a metric asston of gold/medals/materials.

As for mods, the current rarity would likely be fine if we had a bigger fan base. And even though mods are generally ridiculously overpriced, I prefer this over them being too easy to acquire.

The real endgame nonsense is onslaught. it is aburd how much BS Trendy put into this part of the game.

the mutators and spawn combos serve only 1 purpose: to make solo play for medium geared players impossible.

soft spot: you want to use towers in a tower defense game? well to bad they wont hit most enemies on their weakpoints

phased: barricades are already useless? have fun with bosses ignoring your setup and watch them run straight into your core.

headstrong: what was the counter to the assassine aids? stun them in a killzone! .... oh wait .....

vampiric/wall leach: watch how that boss instantly heal to full, while you are busy with assasines.

even worse are the new spawn combos! you dont have perfect tenacity mod (noone has, nice droprate)? here is a lane with anti projectile and anti aura! but you can use beam towers lol!

and we still dont have a fix for cyborks! 12 sec stun is enough to render all auras useless without perfect tena servo, which noone has! but it was introduced as THE fix for those BS mobs!

@FridgeD quote: perfect tena servo, which noone has!

I have a perfect tenacity and almost perfect tenacity mods.   I spent the time farming them properly and I was rewarded with them dropping.   Tenacity is one of the easier mods to farm and you can get it if you spend time farming for it.

@FridgeD quote:

the mutators and spawn combos serve only 1 purpose: to make solo play for medium geared players impossible.

soft spot: you want to use towers in a tower defense game? well to bad they wont hit most enemies on their weakpoints

phased: barricades are already useless? have fun with bosses ignoring your setup and watch them run straight into your core.

headstrong: what was the counter to the assassine aids? stun them in a killzone! .... oh wait .....

vampiric/wall leach: watch how that boss instantly heal to full, while you are busy with assasines.

I'm not fond of mutators either, but your points are incorrect.   Even with "medium gear" you can place towers in a way to bypass all of your pain points.  

Lets look at your examples...

soft spot - solved by adding more damage to the lane

Phased - solved by using that DU you would put into a barricade on adding slow or stun or more damage or any combination of the three

headstrong (related to assassins) - solved by standing in front of a tower or stacking hero hp and armor or keeping a barbarian in your deck

vampric/wall leech - solved by killing the boss before it gets to the wall or by not useing a wall or by taunting the boss or by slowing the boss or by stunning the boss

-----

When you first start onslaught it seems hard but if you gain some experience by changing your builds/shards/mods/hero deck/DU allocation, then you can easily defeat any of the mutators.  

Its a matter of knowing what towers/shards/mods do, what towers/shards/mods can do, where to place towers and where and when to spend Defense Mana.  

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@FridgeD quote: perfect tena servo, which noone has!

I have a perfect tenacity and almost perfect tenacity mods.   I spent the time farming them properly and I was rewarded with them dropping.   Tenacity is one of the easier mods to farm and you can get it if you spend time farming for it.

@FridgeD quote:

the mutators and spawn combos serve only 1 purpose: to make solo play for medium geared players impossible.

soft spot: you want to use towers in a tower defense game? well to bad they wont hit most enemies on their weakpoints

phased: barricades are already useless? have fun with bosses ignoring your setup and watch them run straight into your core.

headstrong: what was the counter to the assassine aids? stun them in a killzone! .... oh wait .....

vampiric/wall leach: watch how that boss instantly heal to full, while you are busy with assasines.

I'm not fond of mutators either, but your points are incorrect.   Even with "medium gear" you can place towers in a way to bypass all of your pain points.  

Lets look at your examples...

soft spot - solved by adding more damage to the lane

Phased - solved by using that DU you would put into a barricade on adding slow or stun or more damage or any combination of the three

headstrong (related to assassins) - solved by standing in front of a tower or stacking hero hp and armor or keeping a barbarian in your deck

vampric/wall leech - solved by killing the boss before it gets to the wall or by not useing a wall or by taunting the boss or by slowing the boss or by stunning the boss

-----

When you first start onslaught it seems hard but if you gain some experience by changing your builds/shards/mods/hero deck/DU allocation, then you can easily defeat any of the mutators.  

Its a matter of knowing what towers/shards/mods do, what towers/shards/mods can do, where to place towers and where and when to spend Defense Mana.  

i think you didnt understand at all what i meant.

its not about getting into onslaught, is about later floors 59+ where it becomes total BS. In earlier floors you can just overpower those desigh fails with raw power.

1. soft spot: add more du in this lane is legit the solution for EVERY problem. too bad that DU is limited.

2. phased: a medium geared C7 barricade with protective downgrade stops a boss for 10-15 seconds, name me 1 defense that would bring such a benefit for 30 DU.

3. vampiric/wall leach: pls tell me how you play your omega wave setup. without barricades?

4. headstrong: really?! so the solution to headstrong assassines is to play a tank in a killzone and dont care for the rest of the map? can we please agree that this is a design fail by default?

"I have a perfect tenacity and almost perfect tenacity mods.   I spent the time farming them properly and I was rewarded with them dropping.   Tenacity is one of the easier mods to farm and you can get it if you spend time farming for it."

where and how did you farm them? i spammed C7 expeditions for ever and all i got were endless 42,5% tenas

@FridgeD quote:

where and how did you farm them? i spammed C7 expeditions for ever and all i got were endless 42,5% tenas

 C2 is the lowest chaos a tenacity mod will drop so it has the highest chance of dropping there.

@FridgeD quote:

where and how did you farm them? i spammed C7 expeditions for ever and all i got were endless 42,5% tenas

The concept is simple.   You have no control over when the mods drop as perfect or not, BUT you can reduce the number of possible mods that can drop based on the chaos tier you farm in.  

With regard to Tenacity, it starts dropping in CII, meaning that farming for it in higher difficulties decreases your chances that any good mod drops will be a tenacity.

In other words, the trick to farming a good version of any specific mod is to farm in the difficulty that it starts dropping in.   The lower the difficulty that a mod starts dropping in, the higher you can make your chances of getting a good version of that mod.

You all realize arguing about "end game" in Dungeon Defenders is pointless?  The whole end game is the grind.  If you had everything you needed you would literally not have any need to play the game anymore. 

While I do agree that higher tier mods do need a better drop chance, I don't feel that the game mechanics are terrible.  You can enjoy the entire game as it is.  You don't even have to have perfect mods, AP, or gilded shards to push in Onslaught, if that is what you mean by end game.  Personally if all I had to do was push higher Onslaught floors for the bragging rights, I would get sick of it quick.

Drop rates are fine. Getting perfect mods is a luxury, not something you need. Well, maybe with the only exception being the Tenacity mod. This mod pretty much has to be perfect, or else it is non reliable. 

We do not want perfect greens dropping like legendaries now would we? (wow, "dropping like legendaries" .... it used to be "dropping like candy", lol)

I have 2 perfect tenacity and 4 almost perfect ones (1 for each obelisk). The mods that are hard  to find are perfect rate and range mods. I've only found 1 of each. But it's fine cuz u really don't NEED them tp push floors and if your on the AP grind, why bother with them. They'rs just gonna get reset anyway.  90% of my perfect/ near perfect mods are sitting on storage characters or in my vault. When i'm done AP i'll bust them out to push really high floors. I do upgrade 2 medallions when i reset, WM and FA as they have the tenacitys on them. I also upgrade my dryads sword to get a head start on gear score. But other than that i farm gear and yellow disposable mods to use during each play though.

@024noi quote:

I have 2 perfect tenacity and 4 almost perfect ones (1 for each obelisk). The mods that are hard  to find are perfect rate and range mods. I've only found 1 of each. But it's fine cuz u really don't NEED them tp push floors and if your on the AP grind, why bother with them. They'rs just gonna get reset anyway.  90% of my perfect/ near perfect mods are sitting on storage characters or in my vault. When i'm done AP i'll bust them out to push really high floors. I do upgrade 2 medallions when i reset, WM and FA as they have the tenacitys on them. I also upgrade my dryads sword to get a head start on gear score. But other than that i farm gear and yellow disposable mods to use during each play though.

How did you manage to get 2 perfect tenacitys? Grinding c2?

Just happened really, wasn't really target farming for them. Though i'm pretty sure one did drop in c2 or 3.

The devs don't need to change anything to make the game healthy. You control how much you play. I love the mutators. It's better than playing the same C7 setup over and over again. Want more fun? Play a lower level. Want to progress? Play a higher level. You don't need perfect mods to have fun. 

Thank you for your advice, Pegazul and RustyCounterweight! i will farm some c2 soon :)

If the end game wasn't a grind, then it wouldn't be an endgame. We would all be complaining that there wasn't anything to do. 

Seriously, what successful game with a sustainable end game isn't a grind? Ever play Wow? The best gear doesn't just appear after a few days of endgame content. 

@MaJean quote:

Drop rates are fine. Getting perfect mods is a luxury, not something you need. Well, maybe with the only exception being the Tenacity mod. This mod pretty much has to be perfect, or else it is non reliable. 

We do not want perfect greens dropping like legendaries now would we? (wow, "dropping like legendaries" .... it used to be "dropping like candy", lol)

100% this! i dont want perfect shatterquake or SR mods to "drop like legendaries" (nice one^^).

But the thing with tenacity is, that you need it perfect to function at all. when your auras shut down for more then 2 seconds, then tenacity is pretty much useless. it doesnt really matter wether it is 6, 7 or 12 seconds. 

i just think trendy needs to rework cyborks and emp flyers. there should be something between killing them miles away from your stuff or lose your defense for the majority of the round.

yesterday i lost an omega wave due a double lane with 3 cybork bosses and 3 vampiric quiblys. i didnt have the DU to kill them before they reached my setup. the cyborks disabled the reflect beams for ever and the quiblys healed to full everytime they hit something.

Just a little FYI though. I've been farming c2 for probably close to 80 hours and got 0 perfect ones. I did get several almost perfect ones. So you do still need RNG luck even if your in the right place 

People saying grinding for mods is end game is the same reason people made fun of Destiny 2 strike catalyst. You could do 500-800 hours worth of grinding and never see one. That is not healthy. I understand this is a bad example but TE is barely averaging 800 players per day and I know most new players or my friends refuse to play because of the amount of grind. There is something called TOO MUCH GRIND.

I don't care about the shard drop rate or gilded shard. I believe those are in a good spot at the moment and don't need to be touch for now, but the mods still need massive work. Currently when a mod drops it almost like the drop table has a 90% of making the mod a rank 1-3 while a 10% chance of making it all the other ranks. The mod system should be 10% chance for each rank on drop.

People make the argument that its a luxury but once you are full of C7 gear. You start working on mods or AP which in my opinion is still very flawed and scared new players away.  The system shouldn't reward only the player who can put 20+ hours each week. I'm perfectly fine transfering and using ***ty low rank mods but in my total play time of farming mods in 400 hours. I have maybe seen 1 9+ rank mod which is flawed. This is not good for the game.

I quite like the end game. It's something that is challenging and fun to do. Any end game that you can breeze through isn't endgame at all.

I wouldn't say the grind is too much, I would say the amount of things to grind for is too much. We need to grind for perfect mods, shards, gold, crafting materials etc. in different chaos difficulties. The most annoying is this AP reset, I actually quit resetting AP, i don't think it is still worth it for me. Whats the point of starting c7 maps after some certain amount of ap resets when all your gear would still be reset, then you still need to play c1 to c6 maps to get crafting material to upgrade your gear. 

I agree with you, the grind is unhealthy, sometime it just overwhelms me and makes me want to quit the game.

I think calling it "the grind" is an oversimplification of the process. It's a grinding game after all. I don't mind grinding for gear and stats. I like having a lot to do. What i do think is off though are drop rates on certain things - shared shards, c8 ampules, level 5 mods. No they should not drop like legendaries, but they should drop more often than Haley's Comet visits too. That correct balance has not been found yet IMO. As someone very much in the end game of DD2, grinding for the above mentioned items is crazy boring. If new updates did not keep coming out, those comet drops would not be enough to keep me playing the game... 

@Jaws_420 quote:

I think calling it "the grind" is an oversimplification of the process. It's a grinding game after all. I don't mind grinding for gear and stats. I like having a lot to do. What i do think is off though are drop rates on certain things - shared shards, c8 ampules, level 5 mods. No they should not drop like legendaries, but they should drop more often than Haley's Comet visits too. That correct balance has not been found yet IMO. As someone very much in the end game of DD2, grinding for the above mentioned items is crazy boring. If new updates did not keep coming out, those comet drops would not be enough to keep me playing the game... 

@Scorpion449 quote:

I wouldn't say the grind is too much, I would say the amount of things to grind for is too much. We need to grind for perfect mods, shards, gold, crafting materials etc. in different chaos difficulties. The most annoying is this AP reset, I actually quit resetting AP, i don't think it is still worth it for me. Whats the point of starting c7 maps after some certain amount of ap resets when all your gear would still be reset, then you still need to play c1 to c6 maps to get crafting material to upgrade your gear. 

I agree with you, the grind is unhealthy, sometime it just overwhelms me and makes me want to quit the game.

I couldn't have said it any better.

@Martin Arcainess quote:

I quite like the end game. It's something that is challenging and fun to do. Any end game that you can breeze through isn't endgame at all.

Onslaught has no end. Weather or not i have perfect mods doesn't matter. Eventually it will get to a point where it will b a challenge. I for one would like to use the mods i want to get as high as i can rather than beat my head against the wall for the next year or more looking for enough rate, range and other mods to get there. I've been putting in between 6 and ten hours a day since mods were a thing and i've only found 1 perfect rate, 1 perfect range, and 2 perfect tenacitys. At this rate my kids will have to finish this game for me. I can understand the frustration of people who can't put in those kinds of hours.