Jump to content
gigazelle

Nerfing Proton Blast

Recommended Posts

Hello DD community!

I'm going to get straight to the point: Proton Blast is insanely overpowered. Well, not the ability per se, but the ability in combination with single-projectile staves (*cough*EMBERSTAFF*cough*). It completely trivializes most content.

Because of this, the CDT has been trying to preserve some sort of challenge by:

  • Increasing boss health so they don't get proton'd down so fast
  • Directly reducing proton beam effectiveness against bosses

Not only did this imbalance directly affect update 4, but it will also have a direct impact on update 5 if left the way it is. While the CDT's workarounds are noble, I am personally not a fan of either of them. They either make victory rely on the proton blast meta, or make the proton blast useless.

I am here on behalf of the CDT to strike a deal, or otherwise come to a compromise.

  • Change Proton Blast to not scale off of the equipped weapon. This means Proton Blast would not be affected by switching weapons, and might even introduce some viability to guns/bows. It would remove the single-projectile staff meta.
  • Direct EV hero damage would remain unchanged.
  • Proton Blast ability2 scaling would be increased to accommodate the removed multiplier. Focusing all stats into ability2 would still make proton blast the highest source of player damage, just not by such a huge margin. Balance-wise, a cat + EV would sit just ahead of a non-boosted monk + seahorse.
  • Boss health would be reduced to account for the reduced DPS soft cap
  • High resistance to Proton Blast would be removed from any enemies that currently have it

Deal or no deal? If no deal, what suggestions would you have so we as the CDT don't have to base all challenging content off of Proton Blast?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be ok with nerfing the damage dealt on bosses (50% minimum) or the changing of single proj meta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think changing it entirely to be based on ab2 only wouldn't be something good, since all the sceptres people upgraded into base damage only due to beam being broken would become unusable, but at the state it is, sceptre outclasses all other weapons, even ones that were supposed to be used for beam damage.

sizShOJ.jpg

As you can see there, a mere 47k sceptre outdamages a 248k kraken kannon. When going higher to 70-73k damage on the sceptres I would easily get 18m on my beam, while my kraken kannon stayed at 6m.

Reducing the x10 multiplier on sceptre beam, and making it along the times of x3.5 would be something nice because it would allow for other weapons to get some use as well, but only if that implied reducing the hp on some beam based bosses, since only nerfing it would make poly take longer than it does and noticeably harder. These hp drops would need to be tested heavily, and on the state the community is about the betas there would probably be only 5-6 people giving input back on that (which would be fine for the late game part of the community, but most of the early-mid game only played the cdt3 beta, and that was only because harry made a giveaway based on it). 

If you only reduce the damage of the sceptre and keep hp, the other weapons should start hitting around double to at least be useful.


Even while you say the hp cap on cdt4 bosses was based around the proton beam, it can only be true for the spider queen. The other 2 (3) bosses are either totally immune to beam, or beaming them is a waste of time due to how little beam you'll be able to get off on them. But still, those 3 have ~1.5-1.6b hp while on 4 players. Iiirc beam does reduced damage on the spider queen, and she still has ~1.5b, so you they are supposed to be hard bosses for every dps, not only high hp because of beam (Plane corrected me by saying she gets reduced damage by everything, so this wasn't made only because of beam).

If this change doesn't go through, you can always just  reduce beam damage on the boss with a multiplier, but this is only a per boss/map fix, and still makes only the ember sceptre useful on beam, leaving the rest of the weapons useless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Thaleskpl quote:(Plane corrected me by saying she gets reduced damage by everything, so this wasn't made only because of beam).

What I was trying to say is this:

In update 4, there is no such thing as "reduced beam damage" for a particular boss.  So instead, the Spider Queen has really high resistance unless you hit her weak point.  That makes monk and jester good, but it makes barb and EV bad.  One bug prevents barb's hawk stance from hitting the weak point consistently (he can do it sometimes, but I believe with only one sword), and the other bug prevents EV beam from ever hitting the weak point. 

Since people are against EV having such an overwhelming advantage on the two maps where it's currently best, I don't think anyone will let me fix the EV bug (it would fix both kraken and spider queen), although I'm planning on trying to fix the bug with hawk stance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you should just reduce the multiplier on the ember scepter to match or be a little higher than other weapons. but if it doesnt get changed i am fine with that too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@OreoDayz quote:

I think you should just reduce the multiplier on the ember scepter to match or be a little higher than other weapons. but if it doesnt get changed i am fine with that two

This exactly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me it seems like the bads outweigh the goods with nerfing proton.  It's been like this for what, 2 years?  Guessing longer.  I used my nice buc bay gun for proton until I got laughed off the stage with that one.  Sceptre is king for now and I'd rather see a new single proj stave introduced then try to re-balance both the beam and affected existing and upcoming bosses.  If we want a good use for huntress guns we can buff huntress.  One alternative is just nerf ev to oblivion, where she originally was...The midway point in my opinion is pretty lame, just lower scepter dps just so she can effectively use some nice huntress guns...Meta may still be based around ev...Complete side note some elemental scaling weaps for hunt and barb would be nice...

But, if sceptre bug was removed, it seems like a 2/3 hp or more reduction may be warranted on the ev affected newer bosses.  And even with that ember runs may RIP.  No one will be willing to go back to full builds supporting only 1 or 2 alts now that they know how rare decent drops are.

My personal opinion to be taken with a grain of salt: If ev was nerfed to hell, a boss like spider queen on CD-R 1 would ideally be taken down in 2 minutes or less by a team of 4 dps heroes (1 boost monk, then any mix of jester, dps monk, barb, or huntress)with capping trans armors, 300 up ult weapons and 180ish cat...anything quicker would be bonus of having high stats.  As far as I can tell it's nowhere close to that now.

This isn't anywhere close to fully thought through but hopefully it will get people to continue talking... 

#scatterbraind


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@OreoDayz quote:

I think you should just reduce the multiplier on the ember scepter to match or be a little higher than other weapons. but if it doesnt get changed i am fine with that too.

The problem I see is that we don't want to ruin the time people spent farming sceptres, and we want EV to remain a viable character.  Remember, before the sceptre bug, barely anyone used EVs.

Here is one possible idea:

・ Decrease sceptre damage scaling to 1/3 of its current value

・ Adjust all other staves to match sceptre/elder staff

・ Increase EV beam damage by 33% across the board

Then EV would still be decent, people could still use the sceptres they spent all that time farming, but the best weapon would be the Kraken Kannon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what plane suggested would be nice. It would mean a 55% nerf overall on the ev beam damage, so maybe incrasing by the damage by 50% across the board (which would make it a 50% nerf in damage in terms of sceptre, and a nice buff overall for other stuff).

You would see some people beaming 9m with no boost, and that would be with really high end stuff. At the moment with a high end sceptre you beam around 17-18m. With a 50% nerf, only a small adjustment would be needed in the hp of some bosses, but ev would still be viable and other classes would get more use in poly or embermount. Those values are with a 210 cat and no monk boost, with the stats I posted above for reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Proton Blast ability2 scaling would be increased to accommodate the removed multiplier. Focusing all stats into ability2 would still make proton blast the highest source of player damage, just not by such a huge margin. Balance-wise, a cat + EV would sit just ahead of a non-boosted monk + seahorse.


Do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind seeing some effort made to make other heroes more viable as DPS.

My main concern with a beam nerf would be to get an acceptable HP change to spiderqueen on CD-R 1.  Currently most damage comes from ev, damage from other heroes is hardly even noticeable.  With my jester as a dps main it takes 10-15 extra minutes to finish the map. So this is a boss where a 50% nerf to sceptre beam wouldn't require only a small tweak to hp.  

Probably the last post I'll make on the topic, I'll just keep my fingers crossed that it'll all work out.

Cheers

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@louisfauster quote:

i wonder what all that mean for ember scepter use, are they just gonna drop trash tier ?

We want to make it so players have more of a choice in how they deal hero damage.

We absolutely do not want to make ember sceptre trash-tier. Our aim is to reign in EV DPS to be aligned with other heroes while at the same time allowing players to choose from several end-game weapons (not just ember sceptre). Removing the 'less projectiles more damage' aspect off of proton blast would be a hit to ember sceptre, but the sceptre is already an excellent source of hero damage by itself since it's a single AoE projectile instead of a bunch of smaller projectiles. It would become a viable situational staff, instead of the end-all-be-all meta weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see specific mentions to Krakens which is intriguing, a very end game weapon that I still see players struggling to  beat the map even on Insane. Other guns and weapons may be viable, but Kraken being the "best weapon", seems we would end up in the same situation with a meta dominant weapon for bossing. Obviously not as severe if the reductions and changes go into effect as the beam DPS is, but still could devolve into a "designated EV" weapon that I find more out of reach than a scepter could be for new players and old players. With that, I don't support these changes, but only another scepter damage nerf or boss reduction as LTs experienced only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Garzhod quote:

I see specific mentions to Krakens which is intriguing, a very end game weapon that I still see players struggling to  beat the map even on Insane. Other guns and weapons may be viable, but Kraken being the "best weapon", seems we would end up in the same situation with a meta dominant weapon for bossing. Obviously not as severe if the reductions and changes go into effect as the beam DPS is, but still could devolve into a "designated EV" weapon that I find more out of reach than a scepter could be for new players and old players. With that, I don't support these changes, but only another scepter damage nerf or boss reduction as LTs experienced only.

Right now, sceptres are more than twice as good as the best kraken kannon.  Nothing even comes close, so there's only one choice.  After the rebalance, kraken kannons will be a bit better than the alternatives, but lots of weapons will be usable with pretty good damage.  Sceptre would still be a good choice because, even though it wouldn't be the highest damage, it would be quite good and you could use it for regular DPS in between beams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Garzhod quote:

I see specific mentions to Krakens which is intriguing, a very end game weapon that I still see players struggling to  beat the map even on Insane. Other guns and weapons may be viable, but Kraken being the "best weapon", seems we would end up in the same situation with a meta dominant weapon for bossing. Obviously not as severe if the reductions and changes go into effect as the beam DPS is, but still could devolve into a "designated EV" weapon that I find more out of reach than a scepter could be for new players and old players. With that, I don't support these changes, but only another scepter damage nerf or boss reduction as LTs experienced only.

Implying that scepter is easy to get, yeah right... Balancing the proton around the old high base dmg huntress weapons also brings back the usage of pawn shot and the moby weapon, those things have good base per up for a more low / mid lvl player place, you can easily get like pawn shots / moby's around 160k with a 320-360^ (not 100% sure but around there) if you put in the effort to farm one. Also weapons from bucc roll ult fairly often. (base dmg per up on these weps are 448^ for pawn shot and moby. 504^ KK) It shouldn't even take that long to find one of those weapons with like 200k+ either

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will bring this thread to live again because I don't know if there were any decisions made, suggestions are nice but if we make kraken best (even a bit better than sceptre) I think sceptre will end up as trash-tier weapon. I don't see any 'situational weapon' in sceptre. I would go for somehting like nerfing beam when using sceptre but buff sceptre as weapon to use normally to attack. Keep the thread alive that's a really important aspect of meta right there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@My life is a meme quote:

Will bring this thread to live again because I don't know if there were any decisions made, suggestions are nice but if we make kraken best (even a bit better than sceptre) I think sceptre will end up as trash-tier weapon. I don't see any 'situational weapon' in sceptre. I would go for somehting like nerfing beam when using sceptre but buff sceptre as weapon to use normally to attack. Keep the thread alive that's a really important aspect of meta right there.

Sceptre is already a really good weapon to use for dps. It hits in an area attack and it can hit hard. A 55k sceptre on a jester + cat can easily hit 3m per shot, which makes it really good on assault and hitting grouped enemies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am late to the party but I just returned to the game after a long, long hiatus. I have come to realize many end game boss have almost 2 billion HP. EV is the only hero capable of killing anything in a reasonable time frame, for the most part. Barbarian can be pretty good but only in bursts and useless in ranged fights, but even my barbarian became useless on the 2 billion HP bosses, even though he has pretty good gear (not AMAZING 7k+, but what SHOULD be enough to clear all content in the game, 5k stats). He can beat the bosses in WW, but it's VERY slow (took me like 20 minutes to beat the boss wave).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, what needs to happen is make all classes viable for dps on par with EV. Whether that means nerfing EV, as well as nerfing boss HP... Or it means keeping EV as is, and buffing all other heroes, I'm OK with either change. Or if some other method is determined. Whatever makes all classes viable for killing bosses while NOT nerfing the overall time it takes to beat bosses. I think every class needs to have the capability to defeat 2 billion HP bosses as fast as a EV currently can, is what I'm trying to say, geared appropriately. I found it ridiculous I had to specifically level up an EV because no other classes can really keep up. Blaster rifle for example does simply embarrassingly low dps on nightmare.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...