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chubbyninja89

Why does the skill point system still suck?

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@Exglint quote:
@chubbyninja89 quote:

The only character who the whole 3 skill sections would work for is the Barbarian, since he has no defenses of his own.

Gunwitch


Ok, I thought that Gunwitch had that, but I wasn't sure, so I didn't mention her.


But that's the thing man, the past system, while simple, gave us a lot more freedom to do stuff with our characters. It never forced us down a restricted path. And that's really the main thing I take issue with.


It's the fact that the devs greatly expanded the options of stuff we could put points into, only to limit the skills points to 3 stupidly separate sections.

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@darksteelhyren quote:

Initiate I agree with 100%.  That was a lazy reskin lol.  I did buy her, but only because I was running out of space for all my defender medals.  

Adept I don't.  Arc lightning is brand new.  Bubble is brand new.  Hailstorm is brand new (even if it's worse than SGT).  I've heard that as a combat hero she's actually pretty strong.  And she's definitely a great tool for players struggling with C5's assassins, just bubble at your feet when you hear them coming and you're saved.


I personally think that they should've gone a little further with the Adept, like giving her a Frostfire Tower that somewhat combines the Ice Tower and Flamethrower towers, or it could just shoot a ice bolt similar to the old Fire Tower that damages and slows enemies.


And maybe they could've given the Adpet an Elemantal Guardian tower that could be changed around depending on what gems and such you mix and match.


And the Initiate really needs to be reworked to be more unique.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

I was expecting an attempt to counter my points on hybrid heroes but oh well.

To be fair, Initiate's Talisman of Empowerment is something new. Though I still would prefer whatever's that belong to the monk be replaced with something new.

And I would have to agree with darksteelhyren here on the Adept. Her unique stuff have peeps preferring to use her rather than Apprentice. But yeah, it still would be nice to have her stuffs that belongs to the apprentice replaced with something different.

Well, it's not so much the idea of hybrid heroes that I ultimately have the problem with. It's the fact that we're forced to make hybrid heroes. We don't have a choice.


And like I said, it wouldn't be so bad if most of the characters only had two sections to put their skill points into, that being Hero and Defenses. Because only the Barbarian and the Gunwitch don't have defenses to worry about, so having the 3 sections could actually be useful to them.


But the devs need to just allow us to put our points where we want to, with no restrictions. Because if we only have X number of skill points, our single characters can't become unbeatable or too overpowered.

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@chubbyninja89 quote:


@darksteelhyren quote:

Initiate I agree with 100%.  That was a lazy reskin lol.  I did buy her, but only because I was running out of space for all my defender medals.  

Adept I don't.  Arc lightning is brand new.  Bubble is brand new.  Hailstorm is brand new (even if it's worse than SGT).  I've heard that as a combat hero she's actually pretty strong.  And she's definitely a great tool for players struggling with C5's assassins, just bubble at your feet when you hear them coming and you're saved.


I personally think that they should've gone a little further with the Adept, like giving her a Frostfire Tower that somewhat combines the Ice Tower and Flamethrower towers, or it could just shoot a ice bolt similar to the old Fire Tower that damages and slows enemies.


And maybe they could've given the Adpet an Elemantal Guardian tower that could be changed around depending on what gems and such you mix and match.


And the Initiate really needs to be reworked to be more unique.

I 100% understand where you're coming from, all I'm saying is I personally am satisfied with Adept's degree of seperation.  

Agreed on Initiate.

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@darksteelhyren quote:

I 100% understand where you're coming from, all I'm saying is I personally am satisfied with Adept's degree of seperation.  

Agreed on Initiate.


Yeah, I haven't really played the Adept, but I do think that they should've gone all the way with making her different, I mean it was only a single ability and 3 defenses.


I personally think that the Initiate should've been somewhat like the Mystic, with a kind of Yin Yang kind of gimmick where she's kind of balancing between the light and dark, or something or other.

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@Plasma quote:

I'm not opposed to the way it works now, but I think you should stop getting ascension points in trees that are maxed out and instead get them in trees you can spend them in. For heroes like the gunwitch you can max out the right side incredibly early and every ascension 3rd level literally has no impact.

This time i don't have to bring arguments, i'll rather play than post in forum but there are to many people whining on forums. so i'll express my opinion fast. Emoji_TNT.png sorry ... but i'll be bitter this time (i just wish this forum was not 50 % of whinig people)

  •  Some of us understand the necessity of 3 skill tree (but this needs refinement as Plasma already pointed out)
  • after a few resets (even 40 resets) the problem of not having enough points is completly gone ... that annihilates all points said by the person who started this thread.
  • + is you make it too easy than there is no more challange to this game ... after Protean Shift all towers got INSANE BUFFS ... make it more easy than it is now and it will be borring (we already AFK floor 55 to 65) ... so for people starting the game it should be normal to get Ascension Points less easy ... fight for it.

We have so many other parts of the game to be improved ... this Ascension Points should not pe a priority ... Hey Over-seeing-everything-guy  ... any beans to spill on Pets ? Emoji_Monk.png

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I never understood that weird skill tree system either. It's still forces me to use one hero for each defense (unless it's a blockade), because it's the most efficient way (due to the second tree design). And i was okay with that. 

However, with new crit system, to maximize one defense, you only need 90 points in third skill tree, but still need 1019 (or 2018 if you use vampiric shard) in second skill tree. It feels very inconsistent.

I think they should remake a skill tree system, so each skill tree will contain both hero and defense bonuses, while also having similar amount of possible point allocations in each tree.

There's also should be an incentive to grind something after you reach 3-6k ascension that will allow you to progress in the upcoming onslaught overhaul without using broken builds.

I have no idea how to fix all those things, but maybe something like this could work:

FaaQhLtfRDw.jpg

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@enigma007 quote:

However, with new crit system, to maximize one defense, you only need 90 points in third skill tree, but still need 1019 (or 2018 if you use vampiric shard) in second skill tree. It feels very inconsistent.

160 in the second tree or 300 to have full health per defense. Talents don't have 999 capacity by default and players at those caps are not crying about gaining ascension, mainly because that's all they have left to do. Also, I will refuse any proposal put up by players to have the trees changed because no one ever thinks about how that will affect the game. Several of you ideas on the trees you linked will give defenses way more damage and way too much damage resistance. How do you think they will balance that? By reducing them to start with and leaving Ascension to equalize it. With the available talents I don't think we should alter the tree to make each one contain something for both Defenses and Heroes and I don't think we need superfluous talents added to make that possible.

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if anything swapping gambit and defense health could be effective without changing much. Early game doesnt have enough asc to get gambit anyway. late game it would allow us to work on our defense health in the utility tree

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@chubbyninja89 quote:

Well, it's not so much the idea of hybrid heroes that I ultimately have the problem with. It's the fact that we're forced to make hybrid heroes. We don't have a choice.

And what's so wrong with that? The system's changed. It'll take a lot of work to revert to the way you want it which would be better spent on producing more content. And the fact the a lot of us are comfortable the current system actually doesn't warrant a change.

I don't see how it's possible to "not force us" to make hybrid heroes? So let's say we can make hybrid heroes, defense heroes and dps heroes now. Obviously we would go for hybrid. Why would we pay for 6 hero slots when one would just do. So the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

Also, if defense and dps heroes brought in the fray, the shards and gear system will have to be changed to accommodate that which will make quite a huge mess.

@chubbyninja89 quote:

And like I said, it wouldn't be so bad if most of the characters only had two sections to put their skill points into, that being Hero and Defenses. Because only the Barbarian and the Gunwitch don't have defenses to worry about, so having the 3 sections could actually be useful to them.

If the utility was also designed to limit the speed of power creep on the other sections, I would totally understand. Even if it's not the case, it's not a big deal to me. Honestly..I'm cool as it is. But....

Still I'd think hero health could go to utility, and maybe Nigiri Toro's idea about swaping def health for gambit. Just think that there should be something more to spend those utility points on since crit damage was revamped. And none of the utility talent caps will increase with Ancient Power. But if that's still not a good idea, I'm cool with it.

@chubbyninja89 quote:

But the devs need to just allow us to put our points where we want to, with no restrictions. Because if we only have X number of skill points, our single characters can't become unbeatable or too overpowered.

If I'm reading this correctly, you want to be OP? Emilian has brought up a point where the new stuff from protean shift have helped a LOT with M.O.D.S. And you still want to be more OP? Which reminds me :

because they're our characters not yours.

You do know that they developed this game right? So saying that is crossing a grid line.

And also seeing the bigger picture, this whole stuff ain't even a big deal. Ascension was designed to be a boost and a leveling progression. Most of your power comes from gear, shards and M.O.D.S. Sure it could use a bit of a refinement but not at this scale.

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My only issue with the current system, that i think is a huge miss, is the fact that in the third column you so easily end up with unspent points. Those points were hours and hours of my time playing the game, and they sit there, doing nothing. It makes me mad to see over 100 points doing nothing. I think every single column should have some endlessly deep bucket to throw points into. Removing the crit damage bucket and not replacing it with another 120 point deep bucket was a mistake. I should NEVER have unspent points. Simply create something, anything, for us to feel like we are making constant progress. As long as we feel we are progressing - we stay interested in the development. When that stops, so does our attention span and caring. Also, i am really tired of seeing the notification icon that i have points to spend on heroes that have nothing to spend it on. That icon needs to go away and it serves no useful purpose anymore and even more so it is detracting from my enjoyment of the game. It kind of feels like the right hand and left hand did not communicate very well about how this current skill tree was planned. 

i suggest - Leave the icon and add a bucket(s) in the third column, or at least kill the icon. 

Its too bad that when you hit the max in a point bucket, that you can't do something like what gear now does - evolve it to a level 2 or something. Then art least you could at least keep adding points to a value and feel like you still get something out of the tree, even at ascension level 1000. I am well aware that resetting adds ascension points - but i detest the reset system and will not use it in its current state, so that is not an option. 

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@enigma007 quote:

I never understood that weird skill tree system either. It's still forces me to use one hero for each defense (unless it's a blockade), because it's the most efficient way (due to the second tree design). And i was okay with that. 

However, with new crit system, to maximize one defense, you only need 90 points in third skill tree, but still need 1019 (or 2018 if you use vampiric shard) in second skill tree. It feels very inconsistent.

I think they should remake a skill tree system, so each skill tree will contain both hero and defense bonuses, while also having similar amount of possible point allocations in each tree.

There's also should be an incentive to grind something after you reach 3-6k ascension that will allow you to progress in the upcoming onslaught overhaul without using broken builds.

I have no idea how to fix all those things, but maybe something like this could work:

FaaQhLtfRDw.jpg

I personally think the only way they could make the whole 3 skill section thing work is if they actually made the Utility section actually have some utility and things about it that change things about existing abilities and defenses, kind of like how the Cannonball tower could be changed into a Heavy Cannonball Tower or adding or changing an effect of an ability.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

And what's so wrong with that? The system's changed. It'll take a lot of work to revert to the way you want it which would be better spent on producing more content. And the fact the a lot of us are comfortable the current system actually doesn't warrant a change.

I don't see how it's possible to "not force us" to make hybrid heroes? So let's say we can make hybrid heroes, defense heroes and dps heroes now. Obviously we would go for hybrid. Why would we pay for 6 hero slots when one would just do. So the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

Also, if defense and dps heroes brought in the fray, the shards and gear system will have to be changed to accommodate that which will make quite a huge mess.

You're kidding right?


It's the damn fact that we're forced to go down a certain path  rather than being able to level our characters the way we want. And that's just not ok.


It'd be different if the characters were simply just a certain way and did certain things, and only just go stronger as they leveled up.


But the fact that we get skill points and are able to supposedly put them wherever we want, only to be heavily limited in where and how we can use those points.


Seriously, it's just stupid to limit a player's choices in such an asinine way. So quit trying to justify BS. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:

My only issue with the current system, that i think is a huge miss, is the fact that in the third column you so easily end up with unspent points. Those points were hours and hours of my time playing the game, and they sit there, doing nothing. It makes me mad to see over 100 points doing nothing. I think every single column should have some endlessly deep bucket to throw points into. Removing the crit damage bucket and not replacing it with another 120 point deep bucket was a mistake. I should NEVER have unspent points. Simply create something, anything, for us to feel like we are making constant progress. As long as we feel we are progressing - we stay interested in the development. When that stops, so does our attention span and caring. Also, i am really tired of seeing the notification icon that i have points to spend on heroes that have nothing to spend it on. That icon needs to go away and it serves no useful purpose anymore and even more so it is detracting from my enjoyment of the game. It kind of feels like the right hand and left hand did not communicate very well about how this current skill tree was planned. 

i suggest - Leave the icon and add a bucket(s) in the third column, or at least kill the icon. 

Its too bad that when you hit the max in a point bucket, that you can't do something like what gear now does - evolve it to a level 2 or something. Then art least you could at least keep adding points to a value and feel like you still get something out of the tree, even at ascension level 1000. I am well aware that resetting adds ascension points - but i detest the reset system and will not use it in its current state, so that is not an option. 


I agree with you about the third column. 


Because most the things in it are simply Hero or Defense things, just stupidly put into a separate column.


And I think that what is at the core of the issue for me is the fact that we have to wait 3 levels to get a skill point, only for a certain column.


I wouldn't mind the Utility column if they had only been used for the Barbarian and Gunwitch, who have no defenses to worry about and who they could actually change some abilities for.


It wouldn't be so bad if we were just able to leapfrog from Heroes to defenses, because it would be just every other level, and not a seemingly long wait between 3 levels.

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@chubbyninja89 quote:

It wouldn't be so bad if we were just able to leapfrog from Heroes to defenses, because it would be just every other level, and not a seemingly long wait between 3 levels.

I've seen you type this multiple times and I don't understand. What is this long wait? In a 4 player c7 you are getting 99% increased xp which without Ancient Power bonuses gives you something above 9 million xp per map, and each map would take at most 20 mins, so assuming you're at ascension 430+ and needing 8.5 million xp to level each level you would be getting 3 levels per hour. That's fairly fast for just about any game and compared to some games where people play 1-5 days per level and get 1 skill point for their character per week, I would think this is a much more beneficial system for the player.

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@chubbyninja89 quote:

You're kidding right?


It's the damn fact that we're forced to go down a certain path  rather than being able to level our characters the way we want. And that's just not ok.


It'd be different if the characters were simply just a certain way and did certain things, and only just go stronger as they leveled up.


But the fact that we get skill points and are able to supposedly put them wherever we want, only to be heavily limited in where and how we can use those points.


Seriously, it's just stupid to limit a player's choices in such an asinine way. So quit trying to justify BS. 

No. I am not kidding.

Like I said, this is literally trivial matter. Peeps are cool with the hybrid system. It's just you who's breaking your back over this. To revert back would be to literally revamp the shard, M.O.D.S. and gear system all over again which is quite a large scale. I'm sure peeps would rather have Trendy produce more content then revamping the hero/defense system again.

Yes, the old system was kinda simpler back then, but games evolve.

Let me ask you something: So with hybrid system, you said we are forced to go down a certain path rather than going either hero or defense. What if I want to be able to build and be battle-ready at the same time? I'm forced to choose either hero or defense. I can't be both. I can't use the options the UI provides fully.

And situations like this also can be quite punishing for a gamemode like Mastery.

Seriously, You talk about choice. Why not mention the circumstances of limiting the usage of certain defenses for example?

Again, nobody here have anything against the hybrid system and the ascension point system except that they could've use some tweaks. It's just you who's having a problem with it and that shouldn't even be a big deal.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

No. I am not kidding.

Like I said, this is literally trivial matter. Peeps are cool with the hybrid system. It's just you who's breaking your back over this. To revert back would be to literally revamp the shard, M.O.D.S. and gear system all over again which is quite a large scale. I'm sure peeps would rather have Trendy produce more content then revamping the hero/defense system again.

Yes, the old system was kinda simpler back then, but games evolve.

Let me ask you something: So with hybrid system, you said we are forced to go down a certain path rather than going either hero or defense. What if I want to be able to build and be battle-ready at the same time? I'm forced to choose either hero or defense. I can't be both. I can't use the options the UI provides fully.


Who are you to say that it's only me who thinks this is stupid?

Have you some of the other people who are agreeing with me on this topic?


And you know damn well what I'm talking about.


I'm talking about how stupid it was for the devs to make these damn 3 skill trees instead of just 2, which would've allowed for hybrid builds without a bunch of stupidity.

This is the skills for the Squire.

05850A68B5E8B62C83C612A7F00C6E08B18B7A9B

That's just lazy.


Those extra things in the "utility" section are just defense and hero, except that they were pointlessly moved to a third section. And that's so stupid.


If you want to make your hero to go for either straight full DPS or Tanking or Defenses, more power to you, or if you want to make a mixed hybrid build, then that's fine too.


But the devs should just let us put our points where we want to and not try to force us to play whatever way we want, or at the very least return it to just two types of skills, that way the skill points can just leapfrog each other.

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I haven't played for quite a while, but I have played before and after the current skill point system was introduced. Trust me when I say this - there have been a lot of iterations with the skill point system. Check this out:

6sUUGmw.png

The current version is miles ahead of what it used to be, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still far from ideal.

Back when the separated skill point system was introduced, I provided very similar feedback to what I'll share now: Separating skill points into *3* categories failed to fulfill the purpose of separating them in the first place.

It's purpose was to help alleviate the symptoms of having a hero who's only purpose is a single button. Before they were separated, you'd have a dedicated hero to every single tower and then one for DPS. This was also before having a dedicated relic to each slot as well. Before, you'd have multiple relics equipped that would apply to all defenses. This accentuated the need for a dedicated char for each tower, especially heroes that have both towers and walls. Thankfully we have separate relics for each tower now.

While the tower and hero section alleviate the need for multiple duplicate heroes, introducing a third section made the entire concept fall flat on its face. With both hero-focused and defense-focused stats in this 3rd category, it's still much more beneficial to create separate hero and tower chars, at least until you hit absurd levels of ascension. A lot of skills in the 3rd section provide significant advantages when maxed out, and the majority of players don't have enough ascension to max out the valuable stuff in there.

Overall, if the three categories were combined into only two (hero and tower), that would alleviate most of my concerns, and players would no longer need to worry about separate DPS/tower specs. This has been my feedback since day 1 of its introduction, and since it's been literally years since I voiced my feedback, I seriously doubt any changes will happen now.

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@chubbyninja89 quote:


@Exglint quote:

I feel like this is just a back and forth now

Well, I'm just being honest, and I think a couple of employees don't like me talking bad about a part of their game.

You are mistaken, the only time a Trendy Entertainment employee has posted in the thread is to notify us that two spambot posts were removed. Everyone else that has posted have been players with no affiliation to the company other than the fact that they play the game.

After seeing your screenshot of your ascension page though I see why you have a problem with the system. You are in the beginning part of gaining levels in a grind game that is designed to make you play a lot over a long period of time in a free game to increase the chances that you will spend money somewhere within that time frame. At the end of that grind, you end up somewhere like where I am with 4k+ asc having every hero completely maxed out and thousands of points unspent on each hero and the only thing you can do is climb Onslaught or reset and do it all again, ie. more grind.

Technically speaking, the way you are proposing to have it the way you want is already done with the three trees. You gain a point to spend on your hero, then you gain one to spend on defenses, the last point you get to choose either hero or defense, then repeat. This allows for customization and focusing.

Tldr: This is a free to play grindy looter game, you are not supposed to beat it in a month, you are supposed to play 100's if not 1000's of hours.

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@Exglint quote:

You are mistaken, the only time a Trendy Entertainment employee has posted in the thread is to notify us that two spambot posts were removed. Everyone else that has posted have been players with no affiliation to the company other than the fact that they play the game.

After seeing your screenshot of your ascension page though I see why you have a problem with the system. You are in the beginning part of gaining levels in a grind game that is designed to make you play a lot over a long period of time in a free game to increase the chances that you will spend money somewhere within that time frame. At the end of that grind, you end up somewhere like where I am with 4k+ asc having every hero completely maxed out and thousands of points unspent on each hero and the only thing you can do is climb Onslaught or reset and do it all again, ie. more grind.

Technically speaking, the way you are proposing to have it the way you want is already done with the three trees. You gain a point to spend on your hero, then you gain one to spend on defenses, the last point you get to choose either hero or defense, then repeat. This allows for customization and focusing.

Tldr: This is a free to play grindy looter game, you are not supposed to beat it in a month, you are supposed to play 100's if not 1000's of hours.

Well, that's good to know. Because I had an abusive admin or mod perma ban me on another forum because he was friends with a idiot who was literally following me to any and all threads I posted or went to.


And the real problem I'm having is the fact that it's feeling like it's taking forever to get any of my defense or abilities to anywhere near as strong as I'd want.


By no means am I saying that I just want to make my characters OP or anything right off the bat. But it's just kind of irritating to go from most games nowadays that have skill points or whatever that let you put your skill points anywhere you want, to being really limited to 1 point every 3 levels in a skill tree.


And I think that there is that little bit of psychological aspect of the 1 point per 3 levels in a skill tree that bothers greatly. It's like the difference between counting off "1 2, 1 2, 1 2..." as compared off "1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3..."


And I'm sure you can understand what I'm talking about.

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@Exglint quote:

Technically speaking, the way you are proposing to have it the way you want is already done with the three trees. You gain a point to spend on your hero, then you gain one to spend on defenses, the last point you get to choose either hero or defense, then repeat. This allows for customization and focusing.

I think he just wants to dump, utility's and defense's points into hero and also dump utility's and hero's points into defense. And he also think the utility section should not exist in heroes that does have defenses as that hinders him in getting points for hero and defense faster.

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@gigazelle quote:

I haven't played for quite a while, but I have played before and after the current skill point system was introduced. Trust me when I say this - there have been a lot of iterations with the skill point system. Check this out:

6sUUGmw.png

The current version is miles ahead of what it used to be, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still far from ideal.

Back when the separated skill point system was introduced, I provided very similar feedback to what I'll share now: Separating skill points into *3* categories failed to fulfill the purpose of separating them in the first place.

It's purpose was to help alleviate the symptoms of having a hero who's only purpose is a single button. Before they were separated, you'd have a dedicated hero to every single tower and then one for DPS. This was also before having a dedicated relic to each slot as well. Before, you'd have multiple relics equipped that would apply to all defenses. This accentuated the need for a dedicated char for each tower, especially heroes that have both towers and walls. Thankfully we have separate relics for each tower now.

While the tower and hero section alleviate the need for multiple duplicate heroes, introducing a third section made the entire concept fall flat on its face. With both hero-focused and defense-focused stats in this 3rd category, it's still much more beneficial to create separate hero and tower chars, at least until you hit absurd levels of ascension. A lot of skills in the 3rd section provide significant advantages when maxed out, and the majority of players don't have enough ascension to max out the valuable stuff in there.

Overall, if the three categories were combined into only two (hero and tower), that would alleviate most of my concerns, and players would no longer need to worry about separate DPS/tower specs. This has been my feedback since day 1 of its introduction, and since it's been literally years since I voiced my feedback, I seriously doubt any changes will happen now.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.


The Utility category is just some hero and defense bonuses, dumbly moved into a separate category.


What would make the Utility part work would be if it was an optional skill tree that actually changes up effects or whatever of abilities and defenses.


It would probably work fine this way for the Barbarian and Gunwitch, but not the other characters.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:


@Exglint quote:

Technically speaking, the way you are proposing to have it the way you want is already done with the three trees. You gain a point to spend on your hero, then you gain one to spend on defenses, the last point you get to choose either hero or defense, then repeat. This allows for customization and focusing.

I think he just wants to dump, utility's and defense's points into hero and also dump utility's and hero's points into defense. And he also think the utility section should not exist in heroes that does have defenses as that hinders him in getting points for hero and defense faster.

That is kind of what I mean.


The Utility section only really works for the Barbarian and Gunwitch, since they don't have defenses to worry about.


And like I just told gigazelle, the utility section would work better if it was actually it's own unique buffs and not just hero or defense upgrades separated for not real good reason. And optional to boot.

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