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MaJean

I miss the protons... (aka nerf Cyborks)

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I used to love to lay down protons, and they were easily one of my favourite defenses. Now I can´t use them in any CY lane (what, 8 out of 10 lanes?) unless I find a perfect Tenacity. Fat chance. Better to use something else. 

I don´t even like the idea I have to dedicate a mod for it to work. Whats wrong with that picture? Are Cyborks not too powerful? They have an EMP ability equal to that of a miniboss, but they are not minibosses, they are EVERYWHERE, like ants. They limit gameplay and make us build meta over and over. Huntress traps used much? I´m just gonna go out and say it. They are bad design. Sorry TE:(


M.

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Couldn't agree more, cyborks are too much at the moment, you get too many per lane and they shoot their emp in every direction sometimes even hitting traps nodes and auras in other lanes.

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All the really decent mods I have found are just sitting around, I can't use any of them until I decide to stop the mind numbingness of the resettathon. If I could trade out my modified gear then I could actually use them but I don't know when I'll ever be doing that unless Trendy sees the light and fully opens trading, like they should from day 1.

They don't seem to learn that putting false gating or limits in the game just limits the game and appeal and that means people just give up.

I have no idea how Marcos got to floor 999 they must have the most amazing boredom threshold. Either that or alt tabbed to watch something whilst the bees wrecked it all.

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@Fozzie quote:

I have no idea how Marcos got to floor 999 they must have the most amazing boredom threshold. Either that or alt tabbed to watch something whilst the bees wrecked it all.

Let´s just say he found out something not supposed to stack did in fact stack... hrm hrmm. Oh, and the boredom threshold too of course.

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Yeah I fully agree. Piercer is in a superior position and I do love me some cannons, but I feel for those who wants to use things like explosive traps or proton beams. Unless you got yourself one of the most expensive mods in the game you just cannot use them more than sparingly. It's a big oof all around.

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Cycbork have been everywhere in onslaught this whole time, nothing new. Wanna build protons in every lane? Go play c7. Onslaught is supposed to be difficult. Perfect Tenacity does drop, i have 2 and didn't buy either one.  I have 3 others that r 9/10. None of them r on my protons. WM got 1 and the other i just got and will probably go on flame aura. The 9/10s r on obelisks as i use them for emp bate. This game has already gotten to easy after protean patch and now u wanna make it even easier? Seriously? Keep playing and u will eventually find a tenacity for your protons. In the meantime stop trying to get trendy to dumb down this game even more. Cycborks aren't even that big of a threat, frost orcs are worse as they don't even need line of sight to mess with your defences. 

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@024noi quote:

Cycbork have been everywhere in onslaught this whole time, nothing new. Wanna build protons in every lane? Go play c7. Onslaught is supposed to be difficult.

Hmmm, but what if I like bees or pdts or wms or cannons? Huh I can use them to great success in any game mode for the vast majority of lanes that exist. So I guess I'm SOL if I happen to like certain other defenses because that is cool. I love when some defenses are not viable because apparently that makes for a hyper-interesting game of "better not choose or like the bad things!"

 Perfect Tenacity does drop, i have 2 and didn't buy either one.  I have 3 others that r 9/10. None of them r on my protons. WM got 1 and the other i just got and will probably go on flame aura. The 9/10s r on obelisks as i use them for emp bate. 

"I got obscenely lucky which means everyone will too!" Man I wish. Feel free to share some of that luck if this is actually how it works.

This game has already gotten to easy after protean patch and now u wanna make it even easier? Seriously? Keep playing and u will eventually find a tenacity for your protons. In the meantime stop trying to get trendy to dumb down this game even more. Cycborks aren't even that big of a threat, frost orcs are worse as they don't even need line of sight to mess with your defences. 

One of these days somebody will have a convincing argument as to why and how arbitrary restrictions are engaging challenges. Today is not one of those days.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

Yeah, it's pretty much boils down to using the defenses that we love as unlike other games, I've noticed, we don't have large enough of a variety of defenses for a huge diversity currently. 

I disagree. We have quite alot of defenses to choose from, not as much as dd1 but more than most td games. The problem I have always found isn't lack of variety, or even hard counters all but forcing a certain style of defense. The problem is 3/4 of the defenses we have for selection are overpriced, ineffective or just plain useless. 

Granted, I am not a hardcore grinder, I have not built up every defense with perfect mods (or even one for that matter). But mods should not be what makes a defense viable. The defense is what should make a defense viable. Can I run c7 with nothing but blaze balloons and ballistas and win? Not sure, but probably. But the end game aspect, a.k.a. onslaught, only makes certain towers useful. Can I  run floor 150 with nothing but blaze balloons and ballistas? Sure can, if I want to see how quickly I can lose. 

I am not saying onslaught forces you to use WM and bees or you die, it doesn't. But with only the most basic of mods, and almost none of them perfect, it does limit you in what you can use. I don't think cyborks need to go away, and the nerf they got after originally showing up was a great change, but more options to counter their ability, not them, would also be interesting.

I apologize if any of this sounds directly argumentative. It's not meant to be. And Paloverde, i only quoted you because i dont know how to do multiple quotes, other posts are also meant for this discussion.

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@Plasma quote:
@024noi quote:

Cycbork have been everywhere in onslaught this whole time, nothing new. Wanna build protons in every lane? Go play c7. Onslaught is supposed to be difficult.

Hmmm, but what if I like bees or pdts or wms or cannons? Huh I can use them to great success in any game mode for the vast majority of lanes that exist. So I guess I'm SOL if I happen to like certain other defenses because that is cool. I love when some defenses are not viable because apparently that makes for a hyper-interesting game of "better not choose or like the bad things!"

 Perfect Tenacity does drop, i have 2 and didn't buy either one.  I have 3 others that r 9/10. None of them r on my protons. WM got 1 and the other i just got and will probably go on flame aura. The 9/10s r on obelisks as i use them for emp bate. 

"I got obscenely lucky which means everyone will too!" Man I wish. Feel free to share some of that luck if this is actually how it works.

This game has already gotten to easy after protean patch and now u wanna make it even easier? Seriously? Keep playing and u will eventually find a tenacity for your protons. In the meantime stop trying to get trendy to dumb down this game even more. Cycborks aren't even that big of a threat, frost orcs are worse as they don't even need line of sight to mess with your defences. 

One of these days somebody will have a convincing argument as to why and how arbitrary restrictions are engaging challenges. Today is not one of those days.

One of these days someone will explain to me how dumbing everything down to the point of being able to use everything in every lane makes the game more engaging and not to easy or boring. It's how tower defence games work. This tower is good against these troops but suck vs those troops. Whole point of the game is figuring out the puzzle of which towers to use. If there's to many of them in onslaught, how bout asking trendy to maybe reduce the number of cy lanes to add diversity to build options on maps. Not ask for a nerf that makes yet another mob completely underpowered to handle the current meta.

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@024noi quote:

Cycbork have been everywhere in onslaught this whole time, nothing new. Wanna build protons in every lane? Go play c7. Onslaught is supposed to be difficult. Perfect Tenacity does drop, i have 2 and didn't buy either one.  I have 3 others that r 9/10. None of them r on my protons. WM got 1 and the other i just got and will probably go on flame aura. The 9/10s r on obelisks as i use them for emp bate. This game has already gotten to easy after protean patch and now u wanna make it even easier? Seriously? Keep playing and u will eventually find a tenacity for your protons. In the meantime stop trying to get trendy to dumb down this game even more. Cycborks aren't even that big of a threat, frost orcs are worse as they don't even need line of sight to mess with your defences. 

I don´t know what floor you are on mate, but I´m floor 378 right now. If you think I´m complaining that the game is too hard, read again, you missed the point. 


BTW FYI .... Tenacity is a waste on WM´s assuming you have shocking rev ...


@024noi  quote: 

One of these days someone will explain to me how dumbing everything down to the point of being able to use everything in every lane makes the game more engaging and not to easy or boring. It's how tower defence games work. This tower is good against these troops but suck vs those troops. Whole point of the game is figuring out the puzzle of which towers to use. If there's to many of them in onslaught, how bout asking trendy to maybe reduce the number of cy lanes to add diversity to build options on maps. Not ask for a nerf that makes yet another mob completely underpowered to handle the current meta.

A reduced number of lanes they could spawn would also be fine.... that´s why I wrote in OP that they are everywhere like ants. 

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@Okielos quote:


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

-snip-

-snip-

No worries there!

Yeah, good point there on some of them being overpriced or somewhat ineffective. Some of them totally don't shine as much or at all compared to current "top tier" defenses.

I'm just thinking from a PvZ's point of view where there are quite a variety of plants that have specific counter function each to the hard counters that the zombies pose that it doesn't really bother much.

But then, that's a top down tower defense game. So maybe there's different rules?

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PvZ is actually a perfect example. Not sure if the rules are different, but this example can apply. You have X tower to counter X mob, Y tower to counter Y mob, and Z tower that is not as strong as X and Y but also doesn't suffer penalties against X and Y mobs. DD2 doesn't follow that formula specifically, but it has a similar design. That is why the hard counters don't bother me exactly. I just wish we had more viable options against them out of our arsenal. We have much more than X, Y and Z towers, we should be able to use them because the variety of this game is amazing. But when you can't use the towers due to them sucking it just becomes an X, Y and Z game. 

Disclaimer: I am aware PvZ and DD2 both have more than X, Y and Z towers. =)

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@Okielos quote:

PvZ is actually a perfect example. Not sure if the rules are different, but this example can apply. You have X tower to counter X mob, Y tower to counter Y mob, and Z tower that is not as strong as X and Y but also doesn't suffer penalties against X and Y mobs. DD2 doesn't follow that formula specifically, but it has a similar design. That is why the hard counters don't bother me exactly. I just wish we had more viable options against them out of our arsenal. We have much more than X, Y and Z towers, we should be able to use them because the variety of this game is amazing. But when you can't use the towers due to them sucking it just becomes an X, Y and Z game. 

Disclaimer: I am aware PvZ and DD2 both have more than X, Y and Z towers. =)

We need more new heroes with new exciting towers. The past few where pure dps or gender swap heroes that have mostly the same stuff as the others. 

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@024noi quote:

Cycborks aren't even that big of a threat, frost orcs are worse as they don't even need line of sight to mess with your defences. 

Just use a rate shard (preferably gilded) as well as a rate mod. Voila! Frozen defenses no more...

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@024noi quote:

stuff

The game is called Dungeon Defenders II, and it's under the Tower Defense category. It's not "BEEEEEEEEEES!!! II" and it's not under the "Bees vs Goblins" category.

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Cyborks are not OP, onslaught is meant to get more difficult so I don't mind cyborks being on every lane. They just need to buff all those useless defenses that don't work. 

You know cyborks don't do damage right? they just emp traps and nodes. Imagine if they buff the damage of training dummy so that when a cybork gets close its shreds it without the cybork doing any damage to it. Then put some turrents behind to kill none cyborks.

Or imagine if they reduce the DU cost of Ballista from 60 to 40. Those things can wreck a whole lane if spammed but they are too expensive for onslaught.

There are so many other possibilities if they can make those useless defenses viable 

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im on board with nerfing Cyborcs, and geodes really, they are the same thing, but for stuff liek cannons, pdts, ballista, harpies, anything with a projectile really.


And no, "this is what challenge is" is not a valid argument. Cause 1. They are still pathetically easy, just dont build that tower. All they do, is force people into meta's, everyone uses the same thing, over and over, thus creating mass boredum really quickly.


Mods have helped this, quite a bit though, like tenacity which was previously mentioned. But most of us dont have the luck of getting that lv 5 tenacity with the max/near max reduction so cyborcs(or geodes for puncture) arent quite as extremely "Dont use this defense!"


so yeah, always on board with doing away with hard-counters.


also, wish i had more time to play DX too much stuff, i havent been able to fully enjoy the mod system yet cause pc issues arose x.x

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