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Towers and Transparency


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As with any game, changes get implemented, and changes do not.  A thing that I've noticed with DD2 is there are a quiet few, very small....handful of very intelligent players who know how to work out the variations with each map.  To be more specific, maximizing the effective amount of DPS per wave in Onslaught.

Someone helped paraphrase the Developers' stream that you all had released on the 17th, and the gist of it seemed to be, new art, and that Jose' absolutely did not like the idea of bees not getting hit with some kind of change.  Am I upset?  Heck no.  Assigned me a task to create art with a team and algorithms to go along with a sense of progression....and all I give you in return is a sheet of paper.

What you all have done with the Protean Update was, basically, change tower options/variations from 3 to the 3rd power, to 6 to the 6th power.  "Oh there he goes with math again."  Go away.  If you were to understand this, then you would understand the degree of compliment this is.  Protean was a great change (fix stability, but hey, I'll bite still).  So you are changing the bees.  Is this a problem?  Heck no, I love challenge and variation, and solving complex problems.  I've never been one to beat the maps via usage of a META.  The last time I used Weapons Manufacturer was in Mastery.  Even when they auto-destroyed Choas 7 on a regular basis, I didn't use it.  It was too boring.  I needed life in my maps.  

There is a mathematical variation for each nerf.  What I was wanting in this sense of transparency is; if we figure out a build which could possible be another META, is the strategy going to be to nerf that build?  I've received a few Private Messages in regards to a previous post that I had made stating that I had come up with one already that isn't used.  Jose' it gives me pause to stream floors 300/400/500 using these builds because they are so effective, and now there are mods, which, in essence, is going to blow Onslaught out of the water.  Waiting for that 1-floor update in regards to Onslaught.  If people cut-and-paste builds are you going to change the functionality of towers that are in massive use?

I get that people want to use easy builds that are greatly effective for maps being that scenery tends to be repetitive and any variation takes up "x" amount of extra time; thus, nerfs.  But there is a counter-build to every nerf that can create another META build.  Is the solution to nerf every build that is greatly effective?  I am truly curious.  What myself, and some others, am wanting is to know that I can rely on certain towers to maintain their reliability due to all of the time I have invested into them.  We are wanting to know that our investment is secure.

Lotus

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Balance is something that drastically changes over time and is incredibly complex. In addition because of the fact that all changes are subjects to the whims of the devs, you can never say for certain whether something will get nerfed or buffed. All I can really tell you is to just keep your eyes and ears open. Use whatever strats you want but if you hear a nerf is coming, well do whatever you want with that information. 

But it's not like the developers come at an angle of "we just want to ruin your fun." No, they do these nerfs to balance the game which in the long run makes the overall experience more enjoyable. It's important to remember this because this is why they won't just go around nerfing every good thing that comes up.

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You're right Plasma.  DD2 is the only tower defense game that I've invested in, other than DD1, which led me to DD2.  When I invest so much time into getting the perfect stats for a tower I tend to take it personal when, "hey we decided to change that" actions come around.  My sense of trepidation comes into play, realizing the amount of time and focus that I am getting ready to put into the game, going from floor 200 to 500.  I will be tweaking my builds along the way, but I can rest assured that they will remain similar.  With this in mind, I wouldn't not want statistics amidst towers to change, that's why I'm trying to understand the motivation behind certain changes.

A few months ago, when people were asking for Dryad nerfs, I began re-working other towers to replace the functionality of the towers I use with the Dryad.  I get permanent-shock results with Weapons Manufacturer and Shocking Revelations combo nerfs, but the bees I don't.  I have three towers in "storage" that I am now going to bust out, and have been working on perfecting their statistics every since people were complaining about the Dryad.  I suppose I shouldn't be concerned.  Nerfs will come.

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The nature of a free to play game in active development is that things will change. If you think the builds you are using are a secret, you are probably mistaken. Its very likely the dev team is well aware of what people are using at very high levels of onslaught since it pays to review that data during development. 

That said, if those strategies are more publicly known the community they do become bigger targets. It should be your expectation that each patch will make some effort to keep the power of defenses in line. That doesn't mean nerf them in every case, it could mean buffing the power of other towers. Only time will tell what approach Trendy uses in future updates. 

So if something is overwhelmingly effective, it should be addressed. If you are abusing something that is significantly out performing other strategies, expect that to be adjusted. That isn't a negative thing. That's just the nature of a strategy game with an evolving meta. 

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Captain, you mention buffing the power of other towers.  I am not sure that I have seen that here in DD2 in the last two years.  Maybe I'm mistaken.  I've only noticed towers being reduced in effectiveness.  When you are mentioning the thoughts that may occur to me that my builds may be a secret, well, every time I'm helping somebody out they are very impressed with my variation of towers, placement, and the fact that they've not seen the types of builds before.  For example, everybody is aware that I do not like to get into my builds but here is, again, an example: Skeletal Archers (with the right shards) combined with fissures on lanes in Onslaught with a particular mutator set is pretty much an instant-kill, when you swap to Abyss Lord (AP swap damage chip helps) and use Direct Command.  People hate the archers, but with the right placement and mods/shards, they own.  This is one of about 17 examples.  I don't like doing what everyone else is doing.  I never have.  What I haven't seen in any stream I've ever watched are build and shard set-ups that I use.  So I wasn't trying to be a braggart, Captain, I was stating the source of my trepidation in streaming floor-builds.  Now that CoD4 is coming out my attention shift will be changing so I do not mind so much.

By definition of abuse, I do no such thing.  My first focus is distance of enemy to goal, and then working defenses from there.  I keep it incredibly consistent and varied.  I don't abuse, such as the Weapons Manufacturer, or overuse of Hornets (I realize that the word 'overuse' is perspective, so to clarify, I use at the most 3 Hornets per lane if I even use them at all).  At most, I will use Hornets on 50% of Onslaught lanes.  I do have the tower ready to replace the Hornets when the nerf comes.

I understand where you are coming from and do appreciate your perspective.

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LOL Lag, right?  I suppose the question is permanently valid when the nerf arrives.  OR, or you insinuating that you use neither of these either?  Hmmm; Discord spies, ACTIVATE! Joking.  I knew that you were never a proponent of the Dryad.  Your use of certain towers is so effective that I'm surprised ...forget it.  I'm not going to give anybody whose  first name begins with the letters "Jose....." any ideas.  Come on!  What happened with the Skeletal Orcs getting big and red when you would berserk them?  When you nerf the bees at least make them Bumble!

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well, the idea is to nerf something down to USABLE, not UNUSABLE


and the BETTER idea, is to nerf in small increments over long periods of time for monitoring. and BUFF the other defenses up to parity

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Naah man I play dungeon defenders. Not dungeon defender.  I did build out the ev wm just go see what the hype was about. But I still think my build is faster at killing. Sure it takes awhile to set up but for me that's half the fun also I was never a fan of afk play. So dryad who?  I stream my gameplay nearly everyday, .  Just yesterday i jumped into a random public game asking for help and again, I had to teach another dryad the wonders of other towers. Always fun ;)

As far as my fav tower taking a nasty hit. And you know which ;) . I would think that many many more people will have to be converted heheh maybe in the update after this next one ;)

I still remember your reaction to my use of it my young patawan ;)

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You've converted me.  It's absolutely devastating. I use it still, depending on the mutators.  A Jedi always has to be willing to learn Lag, and has to understand that they will never know all, just because they've mastered the Jed-mind trick.  I am nobody's padawan.  I loved running with you and sharing ideas.  Regardless of my controversial demeanor, you are one of my favorite players.

That particular tower has been effective to the point in which I don't want to stream it.  I wonder if developers, when they read this, are going to look you up.  Well devs, if you do, then hurry up and get that one-floor-onslaught update out so I can burn out this use of this tower before it, too, gets nerfed.  Yes, I get the use of nerfs but that does not mean that I would prefer a full-scale adjustment.

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I wouldn't worry to much about it. Heh not many people use it or the character even. I mean when you goto town or a public match what do you see ? Dryads and ev2 with a handful of base characters or witches and that's it.

But of course I too will burn that tower out till it's last fizzle or it becomes the new meta. It's just to handy. 

And to Jose if you read this thank you for the omega level on my tower that only I and a handful of others truly understand ;)

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We did get a room. I've no angst about me. Why? Lagmonster is awesome. I hope that you, too Majean, get the level of satisfaction that Lagmonster and I got from each other. 

Peace


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What man... We set up our PS4s and showed each other strategy and it was satisfying. He said, "you two should get a room." I didn't set up the pun. If it wasn't you that I jammed on DD2 with then it was one of your fans claiming to be the Lagmonster. I did not create the thought but brought it to and end. Don't blame me for going on with something that I did not begin. I'm fluent in Jedi.

Lotus

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But don't sweat it Lag, I'll just take in to account that you attempted to create doubt. After all of that appreciation I just willingly showed you...openly. Only replying to an implication, yet you knew that. I shall refer to you as Brutus henceforth.

This thread has been resolved, according to topic and replies.

Peace to you, 

Lotus

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@ArchaicLotus quote:

We did get a room. I've no angst about me. Why? Lagmonster is awesome. I hope that you, too Majean, get the level of satisfaction that Lagmonster and I got from each other. 

Peace


Level of satisfaction from each other in a  room? what does that sound like you?  did you even think before posting that ?  Just because someone posts something doesn't mean that you have to respond.

Call me out for saying I don't appreciate comments like this and find it offensive. 

Yeah you're right about a few things, I am pretty awesome and 

yes we did play a few games together where we did discuss strategies. 

Yes there are many imposters but I am the one and only Lagmonster on the PSN everyone else has to add to the name 

Call me Brutus, call me a Jack.... Or call me by my name I don't care. But do please refrain from making any comment relating to any form of interpersonal relationship with me of any kind. Even if brought out by a trolling post.

Over the last year or so I have been nothing but respectful to everyone on here including yourself. As you know I have  other friends on here that you do not care to socialize with.  Out of respect for this community i refuse to toss gasoline one any fire here. The absolute worst  response you have gotten from me was here recently about cod being a top notch shooter. I guess it's just to much to ask for the same respect that I give to everyone else on here.

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Lag, here it is. You are focused on my reply to someone saying, "you two take it to a room." Someone else said that. I instigated nothing. I made a coy, yet SAFE reply...open-ended, yet referring to "rooms" that you and I had entered and beaten. 

Your reply to my comment shook it down. You could have laughed it off. Afterall, all I did was compliment you within this thread; that's it. Someone else said, again, "you two take it to a room." You and I have, many times, and it was satisfactory. You got very sensistive, and you did not have to, you chose to. I did not have any idea that you would get offended. The sensitivity! You made this thread bad. I'll leave you alone.

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Wow, you guys... If I had known my little comment would make you guys break up, I would have remained silent. 

But then again:

giphy.gif

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Man, that picture is hilarious, and so are your words. That made me laugh out loud....and I love Jon Stewart.

I thought your comment was fine that's why I didn't address you directly. 

Cheers

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Instead of nerfing, why not bring other towers into line? Then you could also bring out harder content.

I think though as long there is variation in builds to tackle a problem. I wouldn't be good in my opinion if there was only one build that could take people high and far.

Also I would like for some defences to be addresssed, such as harpy? eve's boost (can't remember the name) and Squire's training dummy.

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"Instead of nerfing, why not bring other towers into line?" - Superb Dog

My exact thoughts a year ago when a different nerf happened. I forgot which.

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@Superb_Dog quote:

Also I would like for some defences to be addresssed, such as harpy? eve's boost (can't remember the name) and Squire's training dummy.

I wonder would the training dummy be used more if it's a Dark Assassin counter.... like a mod for it to have a chance baits/aggro assassin to strike at it instead of us heroes? 

To think of it now, it sounds like a lightning arrester. An assassin arrester ;)

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