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Shocking Revelation is NOT OP


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I am seeing a lot of people complaining about how Shocking Revelation is OP and needs nerfing... but this really is not the case.

Shocking Revelation might "seem" OP to some people because theres not much in the game currently that stops it.

Let me explain:

Cyborks completely remove the use of a lot of the defenses that exist in the game (to some degree prevent certain heroes being used)
so when the update came along, and gave us a Tenacity mod, of course a huge majority of people are going to use it, because this allowed a majority of players to start using defenses they like or heroes they like rather than being forced to use something else.

I know the Tenacity Mod is currently broken and the problem is going to be fixed at somepoint, but i would also like to add that NOTHING in the game should ever completely prevent something permanently. (Temp, is fine though)


Tenacity is actually OP, because if you are lucky enough to find a perfect mod and get that sweet 100%, you are completely preventing cyborks from doing what they were designed to do... and that really shouldn't happen... ever.

On the flip side of that coin, the same argument could be said for Cyborks (and many of those arguments existed when they were introduced), it really is poor game design when it comes to introducing something that completely prevents something permanently.

Would also like to add here, im not flaming or trying to upset anyone, that is just my opinion.

Im all for challenging game play, but i would much rather see Cyborks be a lot stronger, and do something more then just "constantly disabling certain defenses"... which is now completely pointless due to tenacity.

Now moving on from this point, imagine if Cyborks didnt exist currently, no one would even bat an eyelid at the tenacity mod, no one would even care about it... it really wouldnt serve too much purpose, sure we still have hexers, but we have reflectors for that... maybe if people were struggling with emp kobolds? I doubt it though...

So moving back to Shocking revelation... It has a long stun duration sure, but the chance to hit the stun is actually quite low unless you have a perfect mod, but even then as far as im aware its not 100%... and the main reason its able to proc so much is because of the changes to attack speed, allowing the WMs to be much faster than they were before (from what i can remember in the past anyway)

Imagine if Cyborks or some other monster had immunity to stun built into them(Yes i know immunity to stun exists as enemy mods), would people still be saying Shocking Revelation is OP and needs nerfing? Maybe tower attack speed needs nerfing...

My point is, the mod itself is not OP... its just that nothing exists to counter it like most of the mods or towers have with enemies and id much rather see other things buffed or brought into line with it, then to see things being nerfed and brought back to the same old cycle again...

I do agree that nothing should ever have 100% chance to permanently stop something though, Temporarily sure, thats fine, but not permanently...


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The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.

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I disagree, the chance to stun is actually quite low, it just seems high due to attack speed...
1 node can get 3 pulses off in 1 second, that makes the stun seem OP... not the stun itself, the attack speed IF ANYTHING needs tweeking...

Do agree tenacity is OP though but thats due it being bugged... and also perfect mod shouldnt reach 100% anyway...

@Fozzie quote:

The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.


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Don´t nerf the Weapon Manufacturer to make it fit a mod. Adjust the mod to fit the WM.


@OblivionDanny quote:

I disagree, the chance to stun is actually quite low, it just seems high due to attack speed...
1 node can get 3 pulses off in 1 second, that makes the stun seem OP... not the stun itself, the attack speed IF ANYTHING needs tweeking...

Do agree tenacity is OP though but thats due it being bugged... and also perfect mod shouldnt reach 100% anyway...

@Fozzie quote:

The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.



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The mod already fits the WM perfectly...

As highlighted and proven above, the mod is not the issue, why adjust something that isn't a problem just so it can "fit" something... This also isn't the fault of the Weapon Manufacturer either, but again, as said above, is the problem with the attack speed changes...

Does anyone actually read the threads these days? or just pick out parts they deem fit to them?

@MaJean quote:

Don´t nerf the Weapon Manufacturer to make it fit a mod. Adjust the mod to fit the WM.


@OblivionDanny quote:

I disagree, the chance to stun is actually quite low, it just seems high due to attack speed...
1 node can get 3 pulses off in 1 second, that makes the stun seem OP... not the stun itself, the attack speed IF ANYTHING needs tweeking...

Do agree tenacity is OP though but thats due it being bugged... and also perfect mod shouldnt reach 100% anyway...

@Fozzie quote:

The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.




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@OblivionDanny quote:

The mod already fits the WM perfectly...

As highlighted and proven above, the mod is not the issue, why adjust something that isn't a problem just so it can "fit" something... This also isn't the fault of the Weapon Manufacturer either, but again, as said above, is the problem with the attack speed changes...

Does anyone actually read the threads these days? or just pick out parts they deem fit to them?

@MaJean quote:

Don´t nerf the Weapon Manufacturer to make it fit a mod. Adjust the mod to fit the WM.


@OblivionDanny quote:

I disagree, the chance to stun is actually quite low, it just seems high due to attack speed...
1 node can get 3 pulses off in 1 second, that makes the stun seem OP... not the stun itself, the attack speed IF ANYTHING needs tweeking...

Do agree tenacity is OP though but thats due it being bugged... and also perfect mod shouldnt reach 100% anyway...

@Fozzie quote:

The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.




Nah man, I got it right. I read the thread. Maybe you didn´t read what you wrote yourself. You are talking about tweaking the attack speed of the WM.

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Yes correct, and correct me if i am wrong, but before this update. WMs could not reach 0.3 atk speed, unless you used an orb with + rate (even then not sure)  Nerfing the damage significantly...

So, now you guys get the high damage output + the 0.3 atk speed...

Maybe we should just keep the shocking revlation as it is, and nerf the damage the WM gained from the increased attack speed then?

By your logic that would be fine too... right?

If i am wrong about the WMs previous to the update then fair enough.

@MaJean quote:


@OblivionDanny quote:

The mod already fits the WM perfectly...

As highlighted and proven above, the mod is not the issue, why adjust something that isn't a problem just so it can "fit" something... This also isn't the fault of the Weapon Manufacturer either, but again, as said above, is the problem with the attack speed changes...

Does anyone actually read the threads these days? or just pick out parts they deem fit to them?

@MaJean quote:

Don´t nerf the Weapon Manufacturer to make it fit a mod. Adjust the mod to fit the WM.


@OblivionDanny quote:

I disagree, the chance to stun is actually quite low, it just seems high due to attack speed...
1 node can get 3 pulses off in 1 second, that makes the stun seem OP... not the stun itself, the attack speed IF ANYTHING needs tweeking...

Do agree tenacity is OP though but thats due it being bugged... and also perfect mod shouldnt reach 100% anyway...

@Fozzie quote:

The nature of the stun from shocking revelation is over powered. The chance t stun is also too high and combine it with a decent tenacity, which I also over powered then its GG.

So both Shocking Revelation and Tenacity need tweaking down.




Nah man, I got it right. I read the thread. Maybe you didn´t read what you wrote yourself. You are talking about tweaking the attack speed of the WM.


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I might not be the best advocate for the WM´s since I have never really used them. Nor have I even tried the Shocking revelation mod. People say it´s OP. I believe them. I can tell just by looking at the numbers they present to me. I used to think WM´s was OP a couple of updates ago, and hence stopped using them.

But I do think it´s going about things the wrong way, to start nerfing towers (attack speed) just because a new mod has been introduced. 

@OblivionDanny quote:

Yes correct, and correct me if i am wrong, but before this update. WMs could not reach 0.3 atk speed, unless you used an orb with + rate (even then not sure)  Nerfing the damage significantly...

So, now you guys get the high damage output + the 0.3 atk speed...

Maybe we should just keep the shocking revlation as it is, and nerf the damage the WM gained from the increased attack speed then?

By your logic that would be fine too... right?

If i am wrong about the WMs previous to the update then fair enough.

@MaJean quote:



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I don't know why do so many people focus on Shocking Revelation so much, if you think its OP then don't use it.   Lets consider why it seems to be so strong.

The thing that makes Shocking Revelations seem too strong is that it provides an aoe tower electrical damage in combination with a separate stun effect.   If you are not following along, ill explain below.

An electrocute effect can occur when hitting a drenched enemy with electrical damage.   The electrocute effect it self, causes a stun that is unrelated to the stun caused by Shocking Revelations.   If a player were to add the "Water Elemental" shard to a manufacturer node (mfn), you obtain a 25% chance to drench the mobs that walk through the mfn.

Lets put it all together.   Shocking Revelations provides approximately a 22% chance to stun.   The electrocute combo provides a 25% chance to stun.   With a CVII tower upgraded with attack speed, a mfn can attack about once every .34 sec per node.   In other words, you are rolling 6 dice at about 20% chance every second for a chance to stun per node.   Since the tower is aoe, each of those chances can affect up to 8 (i think the target cap is 8 right now?) mobs.  

The result is that your mfn is attempting to stun up to 8 different mobs, per node, about 6 times every second.   When you stack multiple nodes together, you roll more dice for a stun chance which results (without some terrible luck) in a guaranteed stun on everything.   Combine that with how much damage the mfn does and you have a stun-lock tower that few counters.

The ral "OP" aspect of the mod occurs when people stack the nodes on top of each other.

----

I know that I just laid out a decent argument s to why the shard seems too strong (and you probably think that ti should be nerfed as badly as skeleton archers), but a flat out nerf might not be the correct response.   In my opinion, it would be better to deal with the mod by adding content instead of hitting it with a nerf.   Here are some ways to deal with the issue without nerfing;  

1) Don't let EV use the Water Elemental shard on the mfn  

2) add a mutator that has as similar effect to Bastille Master's damage reflection bubble (fyi, it would blow up your node)

3) change the damage type of the Shocking Revelations mod to something other than electrical damage

4) prevent mobs from being stunned by a different node (from the same tower) for a short duration

5) Dont allow mfn nodes to be placed right next to each other


All of the above options don't involve a nerf, just some re-balancing in how various mechanics interact with each other.   Lets wait and see how the devs decide to deal with Shocking Revelations.  

For now just be happy that you can solo Mastery CIV-CVII with 5-stars on almost everything while only building an mfn for each lane (if you want to).

---------------------

As for people claiming that Tenacity is OP...its not OP in any way, its just not functioning properly at the moment.   People just claim that flame auras are too strong because they get used a lot when farming.   But the fact is taht they only get used so much because they take so little time to place.  

Assuming that cyborks somehow prevent auras from being placed is ridiculous.   The fact is that if you cant find a way to avoid cyborks with your placement, its because you built your auras badly (bad shards, bad ascension allocation) and you therefore have less placement options.   All Tenacity does is permit faster placement of auras in cybork lanes because you dont need to worry about your tower placement anymore.   Even if your Tenacity mod gives you 100% immunity to cyborks, you still can use auras in lanes with Frost Orcs, or Curseikaze and both of those options generally reqwuired the exact same tower choice that you use to counter cyborks.  

The ONLY thing that tenacity does is provide for faster placement of auras/nodesin cybork lanes that don't also have frosty or curseikazy mixing in or near by.   Once Tenacity is working properly [meaning that 40% doesn't function as 90%], the people complaining about it wont even consider it as a viable mod (outside of a perfect drop upgraded to CVII or higher [meaning that you need to reset to make use of it if it drops below CVII!]).


#leave Tenacity alone


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I agree with you, dont get me wrong, but heres the real issue with the attack speed...

People are saying the stun percentage is too high... lets say at a 3 bar Shock Rev mod is 25% chance to stun right? at 0.3 atk speed

1 node is going to hit 3 times a second... that 25% chance is pretty big because of that...

Even if the stun percentage gets nerfed to lets say 10% chance...

Most people use 3 nodes... thats still 9 pulses in 1 second...

Mobs are still going to get stunned even with a lower percentage chance... because of the atk speed...

and if you make the chance too low, then no one will use it, and its a wasted useless mod...

@MaJean quote:

I might not be the best advocate for the WM´s since I have never really used them. Nor have I even tried the Shocking revelation mod. People say it´s OP. I believe them. I can tell just by looking at the numbers they present. I used to think WM´s was OP a couple of updates ago, and hence stopped using them.

But I do think it´s going about things the wrong way, to start nerfing towers (attack speed) just because a new mod has been introduced. 

@OblivionDanny quote:

Yes correct, and correct me if i am wrong, but before this update. WMs could not reach 0.3 atk speed, unless you used an orb with + rate (even then not sure)  Nerfing the damage significantly...

So, now you guys get the high damage output + the 0.3 atk speed...

Maybe we should just keep the shocking revlation as it is, and nerf the damage the WM gained from the increased attack speed then?

By your logic that would be fine too... right?

If i am wrong about the WMs previous to the update then fair enough.

@MaJean quote:




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So many wrong numbers and claims within the thread. Does anyone gather data before posting or just blow smoke out their rear :P

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Im glad you provided the required insight on the incorrect numbers within the thread and laid out the real numbers...

This information was extremely helpful...

@Exglint quote:

So many wrong numbers and claims within the thread. Does anyone gather data before posting or just blow smoke out their rear :P


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@RustyCounterweight quote:  If a player were to add the "Water Elemental" shard to a manufacturer node (mfn), you obtain a 25% chance to drench the mobs that walk through the mfn.



I could be wrong, but im pretty sure adding elements on tower does NOT give them the ability to add status effects...

With the exceptions of Shock damage being applied to an already drenched enemy...
and fire damage being applied to an already oiled enemy

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Well since you asked :P The information I saw that wasn't properly researched was -

Wm as an AoE defense has a target limit of 10 not 8 (Mentioned by Rusty)

The speed cap has always been 0.38 and speed caps haven't changed on any defense

With a decent relic prior to the patch you could easily get close to cap without an Orb or Def Rate shard. With a 9200 speed secondary you could get it to 0.45 only 0.08 above cap, with 9600 speed secondary you could get it down to 0.43 only 0.05 above cap. These were not rare rolls to me and easily attainable for anyone who played.

Then a disabled drop shard was brought into the mix, Water Elemental, this should never be brought up in a matter of changing things that exist within a game. First, xbox has none of these shards so their balance is completely different, and second, there are so few players that actually have these that it has little effect on the overall community. I do agree that these shards should either be fully enabled or fully disabled, but Trendy doesn't seem to want to do either which causes these problems.

Most importantly, Trendy has already said they like where WM is at and they don't like what the mod is doing, so they are going to tweak it to make it useful but not too strong. Which isn't going to be the last tweak trust me, other mods are also over performing and are just flying under the radar atm because of other more powerful things though some people have noticed them.

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@Exglint quote:The speed cap has always been 0.38 and speed caps haven't changed on any defense

Then a disabled drop shard was brought into the mix, Water Elemental, this should never be brought up in a matter of changing things that exist within a game. First, xbox has none of these shards so their balance is completely different, and second, there are so few players that actually have these that it has little effect on the overall community. I do agree that these shards should either be fully enabled or fully disabled, but Trendy doesn't seem to want to do either which causes these problems.


Thank you for the info ^ (did say above correct me if i am wrong)

As for the water shard, im an xbox player, so that is probably why i had no idea about it lol

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I just did Floor 90 and Dropped a 3 Node WM with red bar Shocking Mod Attack speed .38 secs on a Timmies Revenge and walked away never went back to that lane. 

Oh and I also drop it on Frosty Cy zerker lane with NO Tenacity , 3 nodes and Walk away they don't get close enough to stun or freeze.

Nothing special I use Deadly strikes , def rate , Vamp with Shocking mod , rate mod and range mod. You can use that on any lane in any map and afk.

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@uzar quote:

I just did Floor 90 and Dropped a 3 Node WM with red bar Shocking Mod Attack speed .38 secs on a Timmies Revenge and walked away never went back to that lane. 

Oh and I also drop it on Frosty Cy zerker lane with NO Tenacity , 3 nodes and Walk away they don't get close enough to stun or freeze.

Nothing special I use Deadly strikes , def rate , Vamp with Shocking mod , rate mod and range mod. You can use that on any lane in any map and afk.

Just curious. Loving it or secretly hating it for making things a cake walk?

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It's a love hate relationship right now  game is to easy now with any hero\defense but making it faster to farm.

@MaJean quote:



Just curious. Loving it or secretly hating it for making things a cake walk?


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The problem is that the chance it says it stuns and the chance it actually stuns do not equal the same. bosses in particular seem to get perma stunned which is not a good mechanic. put one of those on a game ogre lane in onslaught and you don't even have to watch it anymore.

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Not sure why this thread even exists. Trendy has already stated that the are making an adjustment to the mod. Arguing about it is moot. 

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The thread exists because everyone is allowed to air their opinions and discuss the topics.. Trendy might have said they are making a change, but they havent said what, and could possibly still be influenced by the community discussions... no one is arguing.

So troll... begone

@Rentard quote:

Not sure why this thread even exists. Trendy has already stated that the are making an adjustment to the mod. Arguing about it is moot. 

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Easy there, Chief. No one attacked you personally, only questioned the need for the discussion given the fact that it was already discussed and a decision made. That's no reason to get butt-hurt. 

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@RustyCounterweight quote:

An electrocute effect can occur when hitting a drenched enemy with electrical damage.   The electrocute effect it self, causes a stun that is unrelated to the stun caused by Shocking Revelations.   If a player were to add the "Water Elemental" shard to a manufacturer node (mfn), you obtain a 25% chance to drench the mobs that walk through the mfn.

WM does not have innate shock, Water Element is fine as is and sacrifices a lot of dps just for a electrocute ( AS you would need the shard and a mod to add storm dmg) which does not even stunlock.

IIRC putting 4 fissures next to each other would reach the same as WM dmg considering both would take up 120 mana, and a Flame Aura would do more dmg as they have more attack rate if you can fit 4 in one lane, why dont we just nerf FA, Fissure, AND PDT hell lets nerf every tower to fit to the mobs we have.
Tenacity is bugged currently, but the numbers are correct and I think TE also sees it that way BUT 100% might be a hint that c8 is end of DD2 as what would you get after c8 110%?

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@Exo dus quote:


@RustyCounterweight quote:

An electrocute effect can occur when hitting a drenched enemy with electrical damage.   The electrocute effect it self, causes a stun that is unrelated to the stun caused by Shocking Revelations.   If a player were to add the "Water Elemental" shard to a manufacturer node (mfn), you obtain a 25% chance to drench the mobs that walk through the mfn.

WM does not have innate shock, Water Element is fine as is and sacrifices a lot of dps just for a electrocute ( AS you would need the shard and a mod to add storm dmg) which does not even stunlock.



Sorry, but you appear to have selectively read my post, which resulted in your misconception of what I wrote.   Ill clarify what I mean below.


I never said or implied that the mfn has an "innate shock", in fact I clearly stated where the electrical damage that I was referring to comes from.  

I you had read my post in its entirety, you would have found the following statement right at the beginning; "The thing that makes Shocking Revelations seem too strong is that it provides an aoe tower electrical damage in combination with a separate stun effect".   I clearly stated that the electrical damage COMES FROM A MOD.   I also reiterated that fact when I listed potential changes by stating " 3) change the damage type of the Shocking Revelations mod to something other than electrical damage" as a possible option to resolve the problem without nerfing.

My entire discussion about the stun chances was based on the previous statements about how the Shocking Revelations MOD works.   I can understand how someone who failed to read the post in its entirety could misconstrue my statements.   Hopefully this response has clarified my point for you.


Also, you seem to have misconstrued my position with regard to whether Shocking Revelations should be nerfed .   My point (which I made abundantly clear), with regard to Shocking Revelations, was that it shouldn't be nerfed and that the real problem comes with how different game mechanics (shards, elemental combos, so on...) are interacting with it.   I also made the point (at the end), that Tenacity isn't OP at all and that it should be left alone.


-Thanks for reading this post in its entirety

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