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Tigrosaur

Concerns about removed game strategies caused by MODS

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@Kruntski quote:

Actually what everybody said was that you should just play without the mods you don't like.  What's wrong with that approach?

Since I'm tired of repeating my answer that I'm seeing onslaught as the competitive game-mode where I'll eventually attempt to go higher in floors than other players have before me, I'll just reply your question with a question instead:


If there was a MOD that increased defense power of defenses by 1000000%, would you think that's okay?

Going by your logic that MOD would be fine - if you don't like it nobody is forcing you to use it.


@Cry0_ quote:

Piercer Servo - Before the update, it was possible to have a Berserker lane with geodes. Slimes no longer applied oil to Berserkers, so you have to either hope that your trap would not miss the geode or manually defend the lane with a hero like Barbarian or Abyss Lord, or risk losing the map if your trap does miss. Even if your trap didn't miss, the Berserkers most likely would've hit your walls pretty hard with some protection from the geode, or maybe they would've even ran around your blockades with their annoying pathing. Now? That's not an issue because Piercer Servo. 

Your whole explanation of how you've handled Geo-Zerk Controlled Burn lanes sounds more fun and strategical than what piercing servo has turned this into, I'll use your argument against piercing servo.

Don't forget you were also able to combine defenses like slime pits in the front to oil anything that is not a zerker and geyser traps in the back for the zerkers, or even oil geysers!

You could have even taken this to a whole new level by drenching & killing the geodes in the front (for example with slimes) before they are inside your PDT range, which is far in the back row.


Doesn't the idea of solving complicated situations with your defenses sound interesting and fun ?


@Cry0_ quote:

You couldn't even use something like a cannonball + ballista build in chaos 7 because it would fail instantly due to Vanguards and Geodes. Now with Piercer Servo, you have a lot more freedom in what you can use, and I think that's a great thing.

This is all about high onslaught floors, let's not mix this up with trials chaos / expeditions where you've got the same chaos enemies from every lane every game.

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@Tigrosaur quote:I'm seeing onslaught as the competitive game-mode where I'll eventually attempt to go higher in floors than other players have before me

Says he wants to be competetive -> ignores the fact that tenacity and piercer servo handicap the player that uses them by taking away a valuable mod slot.
Sure lets ignore the fact that the person that uses those mods looses 60% bonus damage on his defence.
Lets ignore the bonus aoe effect he could have added.
Let's ignore the range caps he could have met, the rate caps he could have met, the power he lost, so he can use his defence against geodes or cyborcs.
You say you want to climb higher than others.
If you defence isn't perfect, you won't climb higher than others.

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@Randomroxas quote:

Let's ignore the range caps he could have met, the rate caps he could have met, the power he lost, so he can use his defence against geodes or cyborcs.

You say you want to climb higher than others.
If you defence isn't perfect, you won't climb higher than others.

absolutely. this person COULD have used defenses and strategy to beat the lane using more powerful defenses not handicapped by this need to slot tenacity


but instead he chose to gimp himself and therefore you should climb higher in tiers over this person

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@Randomroxas quote:

Sure lets ignore the fact that the person that uses those mods looses 60% bonus damage on his defence.

Lets ignore the bonus aoe effect he could have added.
Let's ignore the range caps he could have met, the rate caps he could have met, the power he lost, so he can use his defence against geodes or cyborcs.

I'm tired of repeating so I'll quote myself:


@Tigrosaur quote:

Your assumption is that every defense is equal to each other and by using up one of the MOD slots to be able to use a defense in a situation that previously did not work, would be enough disadvantage to make up for it.

Your statement might be true in a few situations but in practical use giving up this one slot is not gonna change a lot.

A lane has spellbreaker geodes? A ballista with piercer servo will still be the strongest physical AOE defense.

A lane has controlled burn geodes? PDT is and remains the best defense in the game to apply a debuff even with piercer servo.

I'd really like to know where you've got your numbers from, a C8 piercing servo does 100% damage and has zero downsides besides taking up a MOD slot.


You're only mentioning the downsides of having one less MOD slot with big wild numbers like "60%" but you're forgetting the reason of why you'd want to use a piercing servo in the first place:

Because that specific defense has some advantage compared to the alternatives you'd have to use if there was no piercing servo - and this advantage more than outweights the downsides of losing one MOD slot:

  • I've given the examples of being able to use an AOE projectile tower in a spellbreaker lane where they do more damage.
  • I've given the example of using PDTs in all controlled burn lanes which is the best defense in the game to apply a debuff against controlled burn - no matter how much damage your PDT does in the first place.

If there was no upside, you wouldn't be using the piercing servo / tenacity in the first place.


A post above you from Cryo even mentioned his struggle and thought process he had to put into "Geo-Zerk Controlled Burn lanes" to be able to beat them which has now dumbed down to the more efficient way of just equipping your PDT with piercing servo and using that every time, nothing else.


@Tigrosaur quote:
@Tigrosaur quote:

Controlled burn with geodes? Well you can use Slime Pits, Geyser Traps, Oil Geyser, PDT's.

I'm talking about situations like these where you suddenly are not allowed to use PDTs (one defense) anymore but you still have other options left to build something that may work.


In my opinion this would be a less dull / repetitive and more fun / interesting onslaught compared to what it is right now in high onslaught floors.

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@Tigrosaur quote:

I'd really like to know where you've got your numbers from, a C8 piercing servo does 100% damage and has zero downsides besides taking up a MOD slot.


You're only mentioning the downsides of having one less MOD slot with big wild numbers like "60%" but you're forgetting the reason of why you'd want to use a piercing servo in the first place:

it's 56.11% i guess he rounded up or something using either melee or controller servo

@Tigrosaur quote:
so that you don't have a one-size fits all solution you can just copy paste into every lane and ignore whatever comes out of it like Marcos is doing right now with his hornets.

so with your proposal you will have 7 lanes with hornets and ONE with the special needed "solution" :P


i don't see how this is an improvement

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From my observation, peeps (not all) have a negative view with the Hard Counters since the Trials update. I suppose some of the M.O.D.S. (Tenacity and Piercing) could be a response to that, which does make a lot of us happy. And if that's the case, I doubt Trendy will remove it.

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@ram1024 quote:

it's 56.11% i guess he rounded up or something using either melee or controller servo

Again, if the upsides of having a piercer servo / tenacity would not outweight the downside from losing a MOD slot, there is no point in using it in the first place.


@ram1024 quote:
@Tigrosaur quote:
so that you don't have a one-size fits all solution you can just copy paste into every lane and ignore whatever comes out of it like Marcos is doing right now with his hornets.

so with your proposal you will have 7 lanes with hornets and ONE with the special needed "solution" :P


i don't see how this is an improvement

Well first of all, kudos for you to actually see and quote that line.

During re-reading of my response I had noticed this paragraph was badly written and did not reflect what I was trying to say, so I removed it instantly hoping that no-one saw or would jump onto it.


I just don't like the way end-game high floor onslaught is turning to, initially I was hoping development would add more decision making in the sense that I'll be standing for a minute infront of a lane until I've decided on a (maybe) working solution of how I'm going to build this lane... and if it fails attempt to change my strategy into something that does work.

Call it annoying lanes, call it a puzzle, call it mastery, call it whatever you want.

Instead even more has been taken away, I now only have to see the icon for a controlled burn lane and no matter the circumstances I'll already be switching on my huntress to build the PDT.

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Alright lets take this a step further.
Tell me which towers except pdts (cause you mentioned them around 20 times already (obviously made the number bigger to signalize how often)) clearly outclass other towers so that people would not lose from using tenacity or piercers.

If your only real reason is the pdt, we should probably work on a pdt nerf instead or buff the other possible cc traps.

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Tenacity is a noob mod, the only people using/wanting tenacity are people who struggle against cyroborks or frostys. There are numerous was to deal with these guys even before mods and tenacity shouldn't be a crutch for these people.

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@Tigrosaur quote:

Call it annoying lanes, call it a puzzle, call it mastery, call it whatever you want.

Instead even more has been taken away, I now only have to see the icon for a controlled burn lane and no matter the circumstances I'll already be switching on my huntress to build the PDT.

i am not sure you have thought through what you're asking for. this is the internet age. there are no puzzles that can't immediately be defeated by google and youtube

no one will be stumped by "problem lanes" for more than the 5 minutes it takes to digest a video

you're asking people to give up playing the game how they want in favor of playing the game in a very specific and probably annoying way in order to give you some illusion that there are problems that are being solved


there are no problems. and anyone who has already solved a flaming zerker cyber geode isn't challenged the second time that comes up so really it's not creating a situation where good players are being weeded out from the bad players


which is what i think you really seem to be reaching for here with your unhappiness at other people using 1-size-fits-all strategies to play the game that you find abhorent

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I agree with the OP on these mods. Tenacity wont be much of a thing after the fix because reducing a 12 sec stun to 8 secs with a 40% still leaves your defenses dead in the water for 8 secs and a cyborc lane will walk all over you. 

Whereas with pierce you always pierce and your dmg is just reduced, but reducing millions of dps to 40% still leaves you with plenty of dps to one or two shot the things reducing you thereby removing the reduction altogether. This is aside from the fact that any defense with storm servo has a chance to stun if you have a boom mod and drench shard, removing the shield with the first shot and forcing all of your dps through to eliminate the problem before it even becomes a problem.

Boom servos are just free dmg and are not interesting at all. They are literally no different from the problem people have with shards where the best shards are just dmg increasing shards and the unique ones are worth nothing compared to them. Thus we have moved to a new mechanic that mimics the old one and has the same problems.

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@gcstephen13 quote:

I pretty much disagree with everything this post says... yeah just stop already, 😄

A short search of your past posts says you basically agree with anything that makes the game as easy as possible and any change that would harm that is the end of the world. Not everyone shares your opinion and would like some kind of difficulty somewhere that doesn't take over a month to reach. 

Also the forums are a place to share opinions so telling them to stop is not constructive or doesn't add to the thread.

Such as, why do you disagree with a certain level of balance to mods that some players feel are over the top after giving us so much raw power in form of dps and makes the game much easier than it has been in a long time?

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let's reverse that and ask you why you're crying about the lack of difficulty when the end-game already exists that allows you to literally push the highest difficulty that you can manage which completely negates your aforementioned complaints about the game needing to be harder :P

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I think they add diversity. Example, i have 4 dryads. 1 builds big fat slimes for killing stuff. The other 3 have special threat slimes. 1 anti frost frost boom, 1 anti orc orc boom tenacity. The last anti melee anti chaose for killing lady orcs. Same with my LSAs, 1 high damage low range anti melee anti chaos for killing lady orcs and assassins at the wall, others with less damage but crazy range for flyers and cybork lanes. Flame aura geared tword killing and another for boosting hero damage. Not only is it do i put a slime here but which slime do i put here. My 2 cents.

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@LagIncarnate quote:

the game isn't making you do anything

Exactly. If you don't like it - just don't use it. I don'y see how in a co-op game its existence changes anything for you if you do not use it. 

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@ram1024 quote:

let's reverse that and ask you why you're crying about the lack of difficulty when the end-game already exists that allows you to literally push the highest difficulty that you can manage which completely negates your aforementioned complaints about the game needing to be harder :P

So you think its completely fine to play for 500 hours in afk-able content to reach floor 300+ to start seeing any kind of difficulty? Just to play in moderate difficulty for another 200-300 floors to reach something that would actually make me lose to enemies rather than my own mistake? I'm not crying about this, I will take full advantage of the game being overly easy as I have always done so all the 7 year olds can actually get to 65 without the game being hard :P

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@Exglint quote:

So you think its completely fine to play for 500 hours in afk-able content to reach floor 300+ to start seeing any kind of difficulty? Just to play in moderate difficulty for another 200-300 floors to reach something that would actually make me lose to enemies rather than my own mistake?

i'm not the one that added the huge power spike. there is literally NO OTHER WAY it would shake down adding huge amounts of power to the game. the end result is always going to be people needing to grind afk content to get back to where there is some challenge


ideally, the 500 hours would be coinciding with the 500 hours you need to get any decent mods to drop so that while boring, at least you're making progress on your characters

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@ram1024 quote:

i'm not the one that added the huge power spike. there is literally NO OTHER WAY it would shake down adding huge amounts of power to the game. the end result is always going to be people needing to grind afk content to get back to where there is some challenge

Or to do a balance pass on things that are too strong to bring them back a bit which is what this thread was bringing into focus. Thus making things a slight bit harder earlier on rather than bore you playerbase to death.

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@Jaws_420 quote:
@LagIncarnate quote:

the game isn't making you do anything

Exactly. If you don't like it - just don't use it. I don'y see how in a co-op game its existence changes anything for you if you do not use it. 

this is just a very short-sighted thought imo. 

This line of argument has been used every time by others to justify why things that are not intended or balanced should stay in game.

This is a game that currently is on a bi-annual expansion/major content release schedule (launch/mastery then onslaught/proteus). it is constantly tweaking things to keep a balance of power between intended difficulty and user power.

They want a game that will last years, that will continue to bring in revenue. Not something you can use 1 tower for to fly through the game in a month and be done with it due to a bug/glitch/oversight on their part.

From a development standpoint alone in a f2p game, no you dont want to keep broken content (or things used to break content) in the game. 

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Another problem is that after floor 65, the only thing that changes is enemy health and damage. You'll never see any new maps, you'll never see any new mutators, you'll never see any new mobs, etc. Given how slowly these things ramp up, the major source of difficulty is in the RNG of mutators/lanes. Perhaps Trendo should hand carve out some floors in onslaught. Maybe something to think about when they are doing those onslaught changes. I understand that some of this is just the nature of an infinitely scaling system, but I also think that hoping that randomness makes engaging gameplay isn't exactly ideal.

The newly added c8 ampuloes and exclusive onslaught mods do add incentive to playing further beyond and do contribute to changing things up, but they are not enough by far to keep the mode interesting after floor 65.

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@Exglint quote:


@ram1024 quote:

let's reverse that and ask you why you're crying about the lack of difficulty when the end-game already exists that allows you to literally push the highest difficulty that you can manage which completely negates your aforementioned complaints about the game needing to be harder :P

So you think its completely fine to play for 500 hours in afk-able content to reach floor 300+ to start seeing any kind of difficulty? Just to play in moderate difficulty for another 200-300 floors to reach something that would actually make me lose to enemies rather than my own mistake? I'm not crying about this, I will take full advantage of the game being overly easy as I have always done so all the 7 year olds can actually get to 65 without the game being hard :P

I am not speaking for everyone but this is my experience on the topic.DD2 is grind game as DD1 is also. DD2 isn't made to be a highly competitive game of great challenge, it's only to grind easy content for slightly higher numbers. My best advice for both of yall is to try another game. The majority liked the new anti-hard counter mods because it allows us to use every tower in onslaught and not just a dryad. We all complained about hard counters when trials came out, some of us even quit because we cant use our favorite towers to their fullest extent.


( I have no intention of being blunt but its just how it is.)

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@Defenso quote:

Personally the game is way more fun now than it used to be and I find my self using towers and characters I not used for ages.

I 've not used my Dryad since the update and that is refreshing to play as one of my actual DPS characters in onslaught and having 5-6 different ways to shut down zones.



Yes, Yes and YES. I got SO tired of using the dryad in Onslaught...but it just seemed to be the only way. (Yes, I know...there are many other strategies and ways to build to allow use of other characters.)

I love using my barb for dps in onslaught. Or my EV. Onslaught actually made me quit the game a short while after the barb patch released because it was all I had left to do. (Already completed mastery.) Now...onslaught is a blast!


As is stated above; if the mods make the game too easy for you...you have the option to simply not use them. But why remove them from the game just because YOU don't like them?

I'm loving this new patch. I thought I was done DD2 forever. I came back and within the first week spent over $100 in DLC...and those were all sale prices. 

Keep it up, Trendy. This is working.


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@Failtard quote:

As is stated above; if the mods make the game too easy for you...you have the option to simply not use them. But why remove them from the game just because YOU don't like them?

No one ever mentioned removing them, we want them balanced because they take things away from the game. Also the answer to your question, is balance.


@1aydan quote:

I am not speaking for everyone but this is my experience on the topic. DD2 is grind game as DD1 is also. DD2 isn't made to be a highly competitive game of great challenge, it's only to grind easy content for slightly higher numbers. My best advice for both of yall is to try another game. The majority liked the new anti-hard counter mods because it allows us to use every tower in onslaught and not just a dryad. We all complained about hard counters when trials came out, some of us even quit because we cant use our favorite towers to their fullest extent

For the first part....care to explain Mastery mode when it was released?

Second part, I'll give you the same answer I got on many other threads....because we love the game and want it to be the best it can be.

Third, the majority liked the changes because they made the game blindly easy so anyone could do it not because it allowed all towers to be viable. That could have been done without making us overly strong and some of the changes we suggested here would still make everything viable. (Also even with changes people are still going all dryad or all WM or all :insert tower here: because it makes the game as easy as possible not because its their favorite)

Forth, people quit mainly because of the game being overbearing with enemy types and the time commitment, not because they couldn't use x tower.

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@Nigiri_Toro quote:

This is a game that currently is on a bi-annual expansion/major content release schedule (launch/mastery then onslaught/proteus). 

Bi-annual? I thought Year One start with Launch and ended with with Proteus which starts Year two. Or if you look at this in actual year, isn't Onslaught belongs with Launch/Mastery as they all are in 2017?

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