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Opinions on Resetting as a Part of Progression

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@Whatever Gunwitch quote:


@RustyCounterweight quote:


One can easily find each weak point with your arguments. So why not me?

1."If you endeavor to play a game" . You're completely right. The AP system and other mechanics placed by the developers were soooo welcome that 90% of the player base left the game. I guess not o many people feel like making an endeavor to play this content anymore. Why is that? Let's not make a blind eye. When you lose 50% of your player base in 6 months something is wrong with your decisions.

2.Tower Defense is not MMORPG or Sports, i think that should be obvious by now. Yes i'll grind a RPG to face the next boss or be better geared to fight another player. You now what i'm not going to do? Go back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again. That would be crazy wouldn't it? I mean what's the purpose? The same thing happens with all games genre mentioned by you. Either the conditions for grind change or the mechanics change - a soccer match with Team A and B won't be the same with Team A and C.

3. Who is anyone to decide what's challenging? I can tell you. I make a layout for this level. I use this layout 600 times. This layout works 600 times. Is this challenging? Either in real life or virtual life repetitive tasking is not challenging. Never was, never will be.

4. Well i give you that, in this one you might be right. For me however there's no gain, only loss.

5 Grind is grind wherever i go. I mean it's on the dictionary. The problem is not his definition, it's you trying to say that every person is a snowflake that feels it should've a different meaning. Again 90% of the player base.

  1. (of a state) oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end.
    "grinding poverty"
  2. (of a sound or motion) harsh and grating.
    "the group's grinding, ear-splitting guitar"
Finally my opinion for whoever is reading this. This mechanic is bad and should be replaced. Lawlta said about changes to the drain aspect of reset. Hopefully we will see this mechanic going down the drain instead. One can only dream.

You are making my point for me....whether something is or is not a "grind" when referring to video games is based solely on the OPINION of the person making that determination.

First of all, I have no problem accepting an accurate statistics but you have given no such statistic.   Instead, you provide completely baseless percentages.   Feel free to provide the proof that "90% of the player base left the game".   Feel free to prove that 50% of the player base was lost in a 6-month period and that that lase was the result of the mechanics that you are complaining about.   The fact is that you cant, because you don't have those numbers.

Also, you clearly failed to see my point a second time (or is it a third?).   You state what YOU are "not going to do" then you presume that everyone else will act the same way.   You say that its "crazy" to go "back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again".   Well, I say its crazy to do speed runs of any game or re-play a JRPG, but other people do it anyway.   Why do you think that is?   Ill tell you, its because THEY enjoy it and I don't.   Those people don't find it to be a grind because they enjoy those aspects of the game that I find to be a grind.   The same can be said about the reset system in DD2.   Just because some people find it to be a grind, doesn't mean that other do.   Whether the reset is or not a grind is entirely a person's own opinion and making a general statement that it is (or is not) is nothing more then a statement of someone's personal opinion.

 Your dictionary quote of the definition of "grind" is inapplicable tot he situation.   The reason it is inapplicable is that you fail to apply the definition in context.   Both of the definitions that you provide have definitive and testable circumstances that can be applied to them.   For example, whether something is "oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end" can be clearly defined.   Whether something is "harsh and grating" can be defined".   But whether a particular person finds a particular activity to be repetitive, challenging, or with minor gain (as your definition requires) is not definite and can not be defined.   At best, you could could say that people generally feel a certain way (assuming that you spent the effort to take an accurate survey of how people feel).

Furthermore, I never represented that anyone "is a snowflake".   I merely indicated that it is impossible to accurately make generalization, in that way that your definition attempts to do, when that generalization is based purely on subjective opinions.

1. You might wanna do you homework before saying what i can and cannot do. http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#All . The all time peak of player was 18744 to a 971 that's a 95% loss. Oh you might say that we had a special event, all staff was online and that's why the peak was so high. Ok then let's look the average player count per month. From 5800 to 511, that's a 92% loss. Boy oh boy that's statistics for you. Notice that the biggest losses happened in less than 3 months. I guess i gave 6 months and said 90%, that's more months than i should've given and less loss percentage as well. Are you sure you know what a fact is by now?

2. I'm not the same person you were arguing with. I just saw the total lack of evidence to support any of your claims and i decided to join in. Please read my name.

3. Again you're comparing two things that either change the reason to do it or the mechanic itself. I guess i entered the portal to another world where speedrun Tower Defenses games is the most popular thing ever. Next time let's compare Africa to Etheria from Dungeon Defenders. I mean same thing right? 

4. "Opressive, tedious, and seemingly without end". How come that doesn't apply? That's the word for you with the dictionary definition, huh. I don't even understand why are you trying to debate the meaning of the word grind. Grind, water, field will have the same meaning wherever i go. Nobody looks at the water and say pumpkin. 


First of all, your statistics are STILL critically flawed and I don't' understand how you cant see that fact.   You show a loss of players over time BUT that loss includes NOTING to indicates the actual reason that it occurred.   you IMPLY the reason because of your own bias, but still have nothing supporting that bias.   So, no you still have NO facts supporting your conclusion.   Please stop with the false conclusions based on percentages gathered for completely unrelated reasons, it does not help your argument at all.


Second, I am fully aware that your a different person but YOU adopted the original person's argument when you directly responded to my response to that person.   The entire discussion was COMPLETELY based on a definition provided by the original person (a definition that you INCLUDED in your quote when you quoted the ENTIRE conversation).   If you didn't intend on adopting the original person's position,t hen YOU should have commented to that extent when you responded.   In other words, its completely reasonable to infer that you intended to adopt the original poster's potion and I responded as such.


Your argument about "changing the reason" makes no sense.   You responded to a discussion about the meaning of the term "grind" with respect to video games.   If you actually read the post that you quoted from, you would understand that the definition being discussed was stated generally and not limited specifically to tower defense games.   Again, you leave me questioning whether you actually read the posts that you quoted above your response.


As for why "Opressive, tedious, and seemingly without end" doesn't apply.   I said that your definition takes the discussion out of context.   You took a definition for "grind" in the context of "grinding poverty" and applied it to a discussion where the context was how it is used when referring to video games.   Those are two completely different applications.


With regard to your comment "I don't even understand why are you trying to debate the meaning of the word grind".   Again, if you read the conversation that you clearly quoted before your first response then you would understand that I didn't want to discuss the definition.   I made it very clear that the discussion of the meaning of the term "grind" is pointless and only responded to it after being accused of "ignoring" part the original person's response (FYI, i ORIGINALLY indicated that the argument was pointless and didn't address it. [If you read the original conversation then you should know that fact already]).

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@Whatever Gunwitch quote:

 My question was: is the evasion of players due to developers decisions?  To answer that question we should look at the spikes, the losses like i said. Why are they coming back? Why did they decide to play the game? Why they left after they tried it?  



Ironically, you made my point by responding to some else.   You originally provided statistics and implies that the AP system and other mechanics are the reason for people leaving the game.   Now you admit that you don't know why people left and pose reasonable questions to that end.  

All your existing statistics do is indicate that there is a downward trend with regard to how many people are playing the game.   It in no way indicates an answer the questions that you are now posing ["Why are they coming back? Why did they decide to play the game? Why they left after they tried it?"].  

If you really want to use the downward trend in the average player-base an an indicator then you need to ask more questions then waht you are posing.   For example, did people stop playing because they found another game to occupy their time?   Did they stop playing because the people that they plaid with stopped?   Did they decide to never play the game again or are they waiting for an update?    There are plenty of other questions that we have no answers to, and the key feature that those questions go to is intent.    We don't know the actual reason that people stopped playing, you can assume that one reason might be changes in mechanics but the fact is that no one knows.    A simple trend downward with regard to the average player-base does nothing to indicate the reason that less people are playing.   The only thing that it does do is indicate that less people are playing on average.   Using those statistics for anything else indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of what the statistics actually represent.

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Tbh i'm starting to think the only person that's ignoring or not reading anything is you @RustyCounterweight . I provided you the statistics you wanted but still you deny it. That's the essence of the word ignoring. While you base your arguments on people personal feelings and what words should mean i base mine on evidence and logical conclusion that i hope you can also understand if you bother to read what i write until the end.

I didn't quote the entire conversation with Tolkmit, neither i adopted his point while i was arguing with you, i didn't even read what he wrote until now ;). Again like i said and you ignored i saw your argument was weak and decided to join in. Simple as that. The only time when my positioning allied with Tolkmit was when i gave my personal opinion on AP system. 

The debate about word meaning will keep going? If you don't accept numbers and a dictionary to validate an discussion i don't think i can provide anything to make you happy. Might as well try to debate with a Anti-Vaxxer. After i read it Tolkmit provided you the same meaning to the grinding that the dictionary did. Something tedious, opressive, seemless without end. Is it really possible to debate with you? Ask yourself are you so desperate to be right that you are ignoring our arguments? 

Again with the "you proved me right". The same thing you did to Tolkmit. It doesn't seem you read what people write. I asked the question and answered it in the same paragraph. You know we have a name for it: rethorical questioning. Provided the trend kept happening associated with forum constant complains i got to a logical conclusion. Do i also need to do your homework and grab every complain in the forum? Even if i do will you accept it? I get why Tolkmit didn't answer anymore.


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Public Service Announcement.

If you're going to start a comment war, you can edit what you quote. And by that, I mean you can shorten what you quoted to only contain relevant information, or snip it if its simply too long

Welp. My scrolling finger is rested. Back into hiding.

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@xArcAngel quote:

Public Service Announcement.

If you're going to start a comment war, you can edit what you quote. And by that, I mean you can shorten what you quoted to only contain relevant information, or snip it if its simply too long

Welp. My scrolling finger is rested. Back into hiding.

I concur. Don´t be lazy, please tidy up after yourselves!

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You can't compare DD1 and DD2 numbers, or the games themselves.

DD1 numbers were destroyed by hacking which Trendy did not\could not control. Had DD1 been on a secure server side environment, the story would have been significantly different.

I am still puzzled why Trendy after dumping the MOBA idea did not just resurrect DD1 maps, heroes, challenges and play modes.

Then expand from there, that would have prevented all these mis-steps and u-turns, but it didn't ever happen.

Before anyone mentions DDE, DDE was just a disaster of implementation, the actual game wasn't bad.

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Yeah totally agree, the problem has always been that DD1 had a "big"  audience of ppl really invested in teh game but when they tried DDE and DD2 the games were really too much behind and it took too long just to get them on par with the past.


Time goes on, there are tons of games to play, ppl cant stay attached to a beta for years.

Also in general the development was still not enough, I mean right now they add diversity... I mean WTF ? Drops have been boring for so long and only now they realize there is something wrong ?

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