Opinions on Resetting as a Part of Progression

@Fozzie quote:

I avoid Onslaught as much as possible, effectively until I have to play it at 55.

It is much harder than Trials, purely due to the mutators, and the curse that is the Temple of Doom. It's just way too random. Some lane and crystal mixes are simple others are horrendous.

If onslaught 55-65 wasn't so punishing for time and just fookoffability for RNG and multiplayer retrictions it would be more accessible and more likely people would reset.

There are some that have fully bought into the whole resetathon, but I doubt even they would say this is ideal.

Felt like you were in my brain. >.< :D 

It seems to me the bigger problem is just lack of content.  After 3-4 months, everybody gets bored and starts complaining.    Onslaught seems to cause people to tire of it quite quickly and many can't get past the idea of resetting and won't even try it.  I think if they sorted out the 'lose everything when you reset' problem, then onslaught/ap is OK as an update.  

Mastery isn't the most fun mode either but you can do it in small chunks, has great rewards and was followed by a new game mode fairly soon.  I think this is the model Trendy should be following.  New modes every 3-4 month that you can play for an hour a week or 10 hours a day, provide something new and challenging and still feel like you are being rewarded.

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

You don't need to light a hundred dollar bill on fire to know you won't like the result. I don't need to AP to know I'm not going to like throwing away something I invested time into acquiring.

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

You don't need to light a hundred dollar bill on fire to know you won't like the result. I don't need to AP to know I'm not going to like throwing away something I invested time into acquiring.

Sorry, but I don't understand how your hundred dollar bill analogy is in any way comparable to the way that the game currently functions.  

Unlike DD1, DD2's gear is completely standardized and can easily be reacquired after about 33 hours of game-play (assuming that you spent the time to farm shards and didn't just get carried to late game).   You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required.   In other words, the fact that end game gear is essentially guaranteed, and that anyone playing the game presumably enjoys the game, there is no way that anyone is metaphorically lighting "a hundred dollar bill on fire" when they reset.  

Even if your metaphor applied, your burning of your hundred dollar bill would actually cause Deflation since benefits you though access to a higher Ascension Point cap, faster experience gain and Ancient Power (even if those benefits are not going to be felt until AP is made to be useful. for a long time).

I think the idea overall can work. The problem is how haphazardly it was implemented. You lose too much when you reset, and you gain too little reward in return. Until that changes, I will not take part in Ancient Power resets myself.

One example: I spent a decent amount of time acquiring Ascension levels, something that was modeled after Diablo's "Paragon" system. Something you always make progress towards, you earn permanently, and is supposed to last through any kind of power creep, meta shifts, or new characters. Upgrade points you would always have access to, in full, unless you chose specifically not to spend the points at that time...

With Ancient Power you lose most of these Ascension points, and even if you spend hundreds of hours doing resets you will not get your Ascension back in full. Plus none of the gains from Ancient Power use are powerful enough to usurp or even compensate for it. That's too severe.

Sure, people have found ideal routes and quickest ways to power through a reset. However even at the absolute fastest route, that time spent is still not worthwhile considering the trade-off. Just because it can be done faster within the constraints doesn't mean the constraints themselves are now fair or worthwhile.

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

You don't need to light a hundred dollar bill on fire to know you won't like the result. I don't need to AP to know I'm not going to like throwing away something I invested time into acquiring.

Sorry, but I don't understand how your hundred dollar bill analogy is in any way comparable to the way that the game currently functions.  

Unlike DD1, DD2's gear is completely standardized and can easily be reacquired after about 33 hours of game-play (assuming that you spent the time to farm shards and didn't just get carried to late game).   You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required.   In other words, the fact that end game gear is essentially guaranteed, and that anyone playing the game presumably enjoys the game, there is no way that anyone is metaphorically lighting "a hundred dollar bill on fire" when they reset.  

Even if your metaphor applied, your burning of your hundred dollar bill would actually cause Deflation since benefits you though access to a higher Ascension Point cap, faster experience gain and Ancient Power (even if those benefits are not going to be felt until AP is made to be useful. for a long time).

I don't think you understand what is commonly meant by the term "grind" when in reference to video games. It generally refers to having to repeat the same content over and over again will little or no new challenge presented for the sake of very minor gain. It has nothing to do with how much RNG is involved. And grind is exactly what the current system is.  Additionally, you may have to spend 33 hours to get back to where you were initially. However, for people for took the time to find gear with decent rolls and the sub-stats they preferred for each champ, and fully upgrade each piece of gear & shards, it would take far more than 33 hours to return to the same point.

The fact you are guaranteed to get end game gear if you put in enough hours is irrelevant, as that statement is true of pretty much every game. The metaphor of lighting money on fire is completely apt. You spent time working to acquire something, and are now throwing it away. The fact you can get something again doesn't make throwing it away a positive experience.

I consider taking away previously earned rewards to be poor game design, and won't support it. Would you be happy if their next update required you to reset your ancient power from 50 down to 0 for a single point of ultra ancient power, then repeat the entire process 50 times?

@ShinUkyo quote:

I think the idea overall can work. The problem is how haphazardly it was implemented. You lose too much when you reset, and you gain too little reward in return. Until that changes, I will not take part in Ancient Power resets myself.

I agree that the system could have been implemented in a more effective way.   For example, I'm confident that people wouldn't mind the ascension point loss if it was implemented in a way similar to the following:

First reset; min ascension required 250 -> reset to a minimum of 250 ascension (even if you have more)

Second reset: min ascension required 500 -> reset to a minimum of 500 ascension (even if you have more)

so on...

[that type of system would allow for the additional caps on ascension points to become viable faster]

Unfortunately, I cant see something like that working when ascension points go into increasing your tower stats.   The reason that it probably wouldn't work is because people would just scale in power too fast and after a few resets all content below onslaught 100+ would be similar to playing C1 with c7 gear.

On the other hand, I could see that type of system work if ascension were modified so that the skills focused on something else, such as providing a limited way to counter some of the hard counters that they throw at us, some way to manipulate the shape of a tower's effective attack range to provide for more creative tower placement options, or even altering the type of damage that a tower does (for example, do poison damage instead of fire damage or magic damage instead of physical damage).

In any event, you do make a good point that the current trade-off might not be worth it at the moment.

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

You don't need to light a hundred dollar bill on fire to know you won't like the result. I don't need to AP to know I'm not going to like throwing away something I invested time into acquiring.

Sorry, but I don't understand how your hundred dollar bill analogy is in any way comparable to the way that the game currently functions.  

Unlike DD1, DD2's gear is completely standardized and can easily be reacquired after about 33 hours of game-play (assuming that you spent the time to farm shards and didn't just get carried to late game).   You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required.   In other words, the fact that end game gear is essentially guaranteed, and that anyone playing the game presumably enjoys the game, there is no way that anyone is metaphorically lighting "a hundred dollar bill on fire" when they reset.  

Even if your metaphor applied, your burning of your hundred dollar bill would actually cause Deflation since benefits you though access to a higher Ascension Point cap, faster experience gain and Ancient Power (even if those benefits are not going to be felt until AP is made to be useful. for a long time).

I don't think you understand what is commonly meant by the term "grind" when in reference to video games. It generally refers to having to repeat the same content over and over again will little or no new challenge presented for the sake of very minor gain. It has nothing to do with how much RNG is involved. And grind is exactly what the current system is.  Additionally, you may have to spend 33 hours to get back to where you were initially. However, for people for took the time to find gear with decent rolls and the sub-stats they preferred for each champ, and fully upgrade each piece of gear & shards, it would take far more than 33 hours to return to the same point.

The fact you are guaranteed to get end game gear if you put in enough hours is irrelevant, as that statement is true of pretty much every game. The metaphor of lighting money on fire is completely apt. You spent time working to acquire something, and are now throwing it away. The fact you can get something again doesn't make throwing it away a positive experience.

I consider taking away previously earned rewards to be poor game design, and won't support it. Would you be happy if their next update required you to reset your ancient power from 50 down to 0 for a single point of ultra ancient power, then repeat the entire process 50 times?

I'm not sure where or how you managed to come to the conclusion that I was even contemplating any sort of "grind" when I neither mentioned such a thing nor implied it in any way.   In any event,  I believe that you missed my point (maybe that is my fault for being too subtle about it).   Ill be more direct now.

I was simply explaining that you are looking at progression with the idea that you spent a lot of time obtaining something.   But,  the reality of how the game is currently designed is that your gear and ascension points are obtained purely in the course of playing, with no extra effort required.   The only thing that you have to put time into is obtaining shards, and you don't lose those (only their levels, and even that is negligible since you don't need them leveled after you reset).

With that said, my point is that looking at progression from the point of view that you hit C7 gear and some high level of ascension then loose it might not be the most appropriate way to understand the reset.   Instead, it might be more appropriate to view hitting c7, max gear and accumulating ascension as a step toward end game which is purely transitory.   Specifically, your effort is not lost but instead converted into something permanent (Ancient Power) that you can use to progress further.   Because of how different the change in the progression system is compared to how it use to be, it might initially appear that you are losing something (and i would agree that the bonuses for resetting need work).   But, even with the initially minimal benefits you gain from resetting you still gain something as opposed to just hitting the semi-original original ascension caps and effectively being permanently under-powered and effectively not progressing in the game at all.  

I doubt that anyone believes that the current system is perfect, but i'm sure that its only going to improve.

My wife and I have been talking about Onslaught, keep in mind we haven't reset a single time - and really have no plans to at this point, but the way you are fully reset is part of what is leaving us unwanting to go down this path.  We think if this was something like seasons in Diablo 3 it may have an incentive, because you receive so many items from completing a season where the next season you start from scratch.  But that just doesn't seem appealing in a game like DD2.

@Kambien quote:

My wife and I have been talking about Onslaught, keep in mind we haven't reset a single time - and really have no plans to at this point, but the way you are fully reset is part of what is leaving us unwanting to go down this path.  We think if this was something like seasons in Diablo 3 it may have an incentive, because you receive so many items from completing a season where the next season you start from scratch.  But that just doesn't seem appealing in a game like DD2.

i said i would never reset for AP being at asc lvl 2k and i quit playing just reading the patch notes i was so salty lol. eventually i did try onslaught after the re roll/re try patch and made it to floor 114 and found myself not wanting to play anymore at all . after a month or so i talked myself into resetting , i felt like it was that or dont play anymore. while 1 reset doesn't do much the xp / gold bonuses after 5 resets is nice. the asc lvl tree cap going up is an advantage too https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1385617673. I will say i do miss all those perfect rolls on items as the legendary gear rolls dont seem as good anymore. after 6 resets i feel what AP needs the most is make it where u can reset after beating a C7 map or floor 55 and maybe let us keep some gear from being reset . i hope TE can continue to push out content updates and squish these gosh darn bugs :) i know lost of people wont agree as i stated i hated the AP idea but that's just where i stand now. 

@RustyCounterweight quote:

You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required. 

I'm not sure where or how you managed to come to the conclusion that I was even contemplating any sort of "grind" when I neither mentioned such a thing nor implied it in any way. 

I mean... you're half repeating yourself without listening to the response, half ignoring what you said previously, so at this point I'm not sure how to explain it to you any better. Doing the same thing over and over again with no new challenge and very minimal reward is exactly what "grinding" is, and is exactly what AP expects of players, despite you saying otherwise. 

Taking previously permanent player rewards away & forcing a player to re-earn them is poor game design, and I won't support it. They've had plenty of feedback, and plenty of time, to change how it works in the big summer update they've said is coming. If they choose to leave it as it, I'll invest my time/money in other games. It's that simple.

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required. 

I'm not sure where or how you managed to come to the conclusion that I was even contemplating any sort of "grind" when I neither mentioned such a thing nor implied it in any way. 

I mean... you're half repeating yourself without listening to the response, half ignoring what you said previously, so at this point I'm not sure how to explain it to you any better. Doing the same thing over and over again with no new challenge and very minimal reward is exactly what "grinding" is, and is exactly what AP expects of players, despite you saying otherwise. 

Taking previously permanent player rewards away & forcing a player to re-earn them is poor game design, and I won't support it. They've had plenty of feedback, and plenty of time, to change how it works in the big summer update they've said is coming. If they choose to leave it as it, I'll invest my time/money in other games. It's that simple.

theres the rub.

They have to decide to either appease the end game players who are playing their AP/onslaught system by streamlining and making improvements to it. -they have already said this is happening

Or appease the holdouts who are refusing to play the system in a protest until its removed from the game. -this isnt happening you might as well quit if you really feel that way.

A reset system isnt new, its not even a bad system for long term character progression. its not going anywhere, its been here since december and they have said its getting more tweaks and updates in patches planned months from now.

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

Want to know how I know I won't like it? I don't feel like playing the game at all as it stands. The person who sunk 1100hrs into dd1 hasen't cared much in the past year to play. I farmed c7 like a year ago and it was not that good at that point either. It never got better. Then there is lack of new content and the fact I played a fair bit before that too. I lvled 4 chars to 25 back when that was the cap, I lvled 6 to 50 when you had to do them 1 by 1. The game is not fun for people coming back and not for people who want to try it. I mean look at the user stats http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#1y. If they can't fix this game it will either get shut down or they will just let it rot while just updating major bugs here and there. I mean go look at Orcs Must Die: Unchained which died due to design choices also http://steamcharts.com/app/427270#1y.

@ShinUkyo quote:

I think the idea overall can work. The problem is how haphazardly it was implemented.

Great ideas, poorly implemented.  Seems to be a theme.

@Infernotez quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

Want to know how I know I won't like it? I don't feel like playing the game at all as it stands. The person who sunk 1100hrs into dd1 hasen't cared much in the past year to play. I farmed c7 like a year ago and it was not that good at that point either. It never got better. Then there is lack of new content and the fact I played a fair bit before that too. I lvled 4 chars to 25 back when that was the cap, I lvled 6 to 50 when you had to do them 1 by 1. The game is not fun for people coming back and not for people who want to try it. I mean look at the user stats http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#1y. If they can't fix this game it will either get shut down or they will just let it rot while just updating major bugs here and there. I mean go look at Orcs Must Die: Unchained which died due to design choices also http://steamcharts.com/app/427270#1y.

looking at that steamchart (which only represents the active playerbase on 1/3rd of the platforms) its showing a peak of 907 players playing on pc at the same time in the last 24 hours with 491 in the last hour.

Now lets take a few things into consideration. PC is probably a bit more then 1/3 of the end game players but probably less then 1/3 of new players due to both the limited number of f2p games on console and the relative newness of the game compared to pc.

The chart also shows a spike in players that lines up with each major release (also where they would get income spikes due to new things to buy). We are currently in a low point of active players between 2 major patches with a concurrent average (assuming ps4 and xbox mirror pc active players) of about 3k players on at peak time and 1500 during low activity times.

This doesnt look like anything is dying in any way shape or form. Are less players playing then when the game launched? Yes, thats normal, every games playerbase isnt what it was a year after launch. What would actually be alarming would be if the playerbase declined at the time of major releases.

@Nigiri_Toro quote:

@Infernotez quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

I'm completely against it. I'm not going to throw away the massive investment I made into progressing my gear/ascension/pets. Forcing players to redo old content rather than creating new content is just lazy game design. I grinded out a lot of gear etc. based around the idea I could keep it. If I reset, that makes most of that grind a complete and total waste, as I could have reached the reset point with much less of a time commitment.

The fact they haven't changed how it works already is worrisome. Eventually, any new content will be balanced around expecting people to have some AP. If that is the case, and there is still no way to gain AP without throwing away your previous time investment, I'll just throw the game away entirely and be done with it; rather than throw away my progress over and over again. Especially when, if AP is allowed to stand, that means any future end game progress is at risk of later being reset in a similar fashion by whatever content follows it.

How do you know if you will like it (or not like it) until you try it at least once?

Want to know how I know I won't like it? I don't feel like playing the game at all as it stands. The person who sunk 1100hrs into dd1 hasen't cared much in the past year to play. I farmed c7 like a year ago and it was not that good at that point either. It never got better. Then there is lack of new content and the fact I played a fair bit before that too. I lvled 4 chars to 25 back when that was the cap, I lvled 6 to 50 when you had to do them 1 by 1. The game is not fun for people coming back and not for people who want to try it. I mean look at the user stats http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#1y. If they can't fix this game it will either get shut down or they will just let it rot while just updating major bugs here and there. I mean go look at Orcs Must Die: Unchained which died due to design choices also http://steamcharts.com/app/427270#1y.

looking at that steamchart (which only represents the active playerbase on 1/3rd of the platforms) its showing a peak of 907 players playing on pc at the same time in the last 24 hours with 491 in the last hour.

Now lets take a few things into consideration. PC is probably a bit more then 1/3 of the end game players but probably less then 1/3 of new players due to both the limited number of f2p games on console and the relative newness of the game compared to pc.

The chart also shows a spike in players that lines up with each major release (also where they would get income spikes due to new things to buy). We are currently in a low point of active players between 2 major patches with a concurrent average (assuming ps4 and xbox mirror pc active players) of about 3k players on at peak time and 1500 during low activity times.

This doesnt look like anything is dying in any way shape or form. Are less players playing then when the game launched? Yes, thats normal, every games playerbase isnt what it was a year after launch. What would actually be alarming would be if the playerbase declined at the time of major releases.

Then the issue becomes that DD2 which started around the time of warframe, which is also a f2p on both the consoles and also a coop grind focused shooter(granted sans tower defense) has done massively better. I understand there is some factors but a lot of dd2's development has been haphazardly done with an ever changing plan that they themselves don't seem to even be able to pin down. There has been a constant downtrend with the updates spiking a bit and a continued decline. The hours per person in game is highly concentrating in an even smaller number of people who are continually getting fed up or bored. I mean look at September and October in 2015 which clearly show they gained a lot of users when going f2p but they were unable to retain them which while it's a coincidence that's when friends plus me thought the game was at it's best overall. Then after that it experienced massive player loss which it never gained back and at it's best has gotten like 2.2x increase on an update since then.

Now the real question is what happened to new content for all this time? They stopped nearly every bit of new content for roughly the last 17 months to keep revamping systems, but for a f2p game you cannot do that. Without new content the game gets stale and the playerbase grows bored. They tried to revamp the new player experience but honestly unless there is some nice word of mouth it will never matter, most people who get into the game don't stay for long. The challenge of the game is based on being annoyed, the fun of the game is lacking for most people, the grind of the game is just for grind sake without much meaning behind it. I know they plan to do an update this summer but honestly this is probably their last chance to fix this game as many just don't care anymore. If all the game does not become fun then I guess all of you who like playing this will have fun as the playerbase declines on all systems.

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required. 

I'm not sure where or how you managed to come to the conclusion that I was even contemplating any sort of "grind" when I neither mentioned such a thing nor implied it in any way. 

I mean... you're half repeating yourself without listening to the response, half ignoring what you said previously, so at this point I'm not sure how to explain it to you any better. Doing the same thing over and over again with no new challenge and very minimal reward is exactly what "grinding" is, and is exactly what AP expects of players, despite you saying otherwise. 

Taking previously permanent player rewards away & forcing a player to re-earn them is poor game design, and I won't support it. They've had plenty of feedback, and plenty of time, to change how it works in the big summer update they've said is coming. If they choose to leave it as it, I'll invest my time/money in other games. It's that simple.

Sorry to disappoint you, but didn't ignore any of your response, I simply chose not to continue a pointless discussion on what the definition of "grinding" is relative to video games.   The fact is that EVERY game includes elements that can fit into the definition of "grinding".  

Your definition is so broad that EVERY game in existence [even non-video games] would be considered to be a grind.   Every portion of your definition is entirely subjective and can and will be interpreted differently from person to person.   The fact is that the definition is so broad that its pointless to even discuss it.  

Since you feel as if I ignored your response before, Ill ill add to it below (even though I still believe that the discussion is pointless).

Your definition of "grinding" is so broad that necessarily includes every game in existence, even those that you might personally believe to not require any "grinding".   To explain my point, I will break down your definition and provide reasonable explanations as to why it is too broad and therefore inapplicable in the following paragraphs.

Lets look at each element of your definition of "grinding" by starting with the entire definition;

"having to repeat the same content over and over again will little or no new challenge presented for the sake of very minor gain"

"having to"

If you endeavor to play a game, then you have no choice but to complete content set forth by the developers.   The genera of the game might determine what content and whether there is extra content that you can choose to complete, but you still "have to" complete something that the developers laid out for you.  

Even though you do not technically need to continue playing a game, you do "have to" complete set content to progress.

"repeat the same content over and over again"

Repeating the same content over and over is the essence of a game.   Here are some examples of repetitive play; 1) MMORPG - leveling/dungeons/battlegrounds/quests 2) Hack and Slash - killing mobs 3) Tower defense - replaying maps 4) Board games - starting a new game 5) sports - same rules same goal repeated every time.

I could go on with examples, but the fact is that every game is repetitive no matter the medium or genera.

"wi[th] little or no challenge presented"

This potion of your definition is best answered with the following question.   Who are you to determine what is a "challenge" for someone?.   You might find something to be easy, while another person finds that particular thing to be impossible.   What is challenging varies from person to person, so saying that something has "little to no challenge" is likely never going to be accurate when considering a large group of people [you might be able to make a representation of level of challenge relative to a tested group of people, but not is the general way that your definition implies].   Even when considering levels of "challenge" that  developer programs into a game, they have to base that designation on some per-determined scale which does not necessarily have a direct relation to whether a player finds any portion of it to be challenging.

The type of "challenge" that you are referring to in your definition is wholly subjective and is different for every player.   If you consider the DD2 player-base alone, you can see a huge difference of opinion as to what is and is not "challenging".

"for the sake of minor gain"

This is another portion of your definition that is best answered with a question.   Who are you to say that is and is or is not a "minor gain" or even a major gain?   What you might consider to be a minor gain might be a massive gain for another person.   Similarly, what you consider to be a massive gain might be a minor gain for another person.   Furthermore, what a person gains in a game inst necessarily limited to what a developer literally programs into it.   With regard to DD2, how can you say that having the option to progress in a manner other then endlessly gaining ascension points is only a "minor gain" for other people?   How can you say that providing motivation to simply play, and presumably enjoy playing, isn't a massive gain for players?

What one person finds to be a "gain", whether minor or major, is entirely up to that person.   There is no requirement that that "gain" literally be programed into the game.   Using such a playable measure of benefit such as "minor gain" is simply too general to be applicable, its too subjective to apply in the broad way taht your definition of "grinding" applies it.

You appear to want to have a discussion about what is and is not "grinding" and whether that is or is not applicable to DD2.   But, as I have repeatedly stated, that discussion is pointless.   At best, the concept of "grinding" only conveys the idea that a person is performing some action, which that person doesn't find to be enjoyable, for the purpose of achieving some goal.

--

You alleged that I don't "understand what is commonly meant by the term "grind" when in reference to video games", but it appears that the real issue is that your definition of grind that is inherently flawed (as discussed above).   When using your definition, you could accurately make the representation that YOU, personally, find certain content in a game to feel like a grind when YOU, personally, play that game.   Your definition of "grinding" cant apply to such a broad definition in the way that you applied it if you and ever hope to be anything but incorrect when applying it.

--

Now, in an attempt to avoid being accused of "ignoring" a response again, let me directly respond to each of your most recent points.

First of all, you say that i am "half repeating myself"..but I made that clear when I stated that I was elaborating on the point that you so clearly missed.   I chose not to get into an argument about such a subjective standard because such a discussion completely and utterly pointless on top of having nothing to do with the original topic.

Second, the allegedly "ignored" portion of your initial response should be fully explained above, along with why its pointless to discus the definition of "grind" that you seem to want to talk about.

Third, I never said that you, or anyone, should support or not support anything.   I simply asked for an explanation as to how you could claim to dislike something without giving it a chance (aka try it first).   To be clear, my initial question was not even specifically about the game or any of its changes.   It wasn't about whether you should or should not like the current changes in DD2.   The question was about how you can come to the conclusion that you like or dislike a certain mechanic without trying it first.  

Hopefully you find the above repose satisfactory.

Personally.....

I don't really mind losing my gear (now) as it is a reset system.

However......

There are literally some pain points here.

1) Shard unupgraded.

On one hand this makes gold more valueble. On the other hand, this make you on a limited budget that only allows you to spend them on the most efficient towers if you're on all time low on gold.

2) The grind gets tedious and boring. 

(I need to do some experiments to make my conclusion) Will update this later. Though I still hope that Trendy lessens the grind.

3) Rewards.

The rewards currently are too based on Long term. There's no kick in it per reset. Well let's see what's Trendy gonna do since they mentioned they're doing something about it. 

I am not quite sure where exactly I stand on the whole AP debate. The rewards themselves 1% or such per AP seem to offer very little incentive, but expanding to 999 in Ascension seems to be the only real reward worth pursuing. When maxed out the 999 would make a huge difference to how easy the game would be. I was initially excited by this update until I actually tried to reach the first reset point and found my skill was lacking and unless i was being carried will remain unatainable for me. Like mastery I find onsluaght far too frustrating and I cannot cope with it. I cant see me ever being able to ever reset without help, which puts me in a difficult position. Do I constantly beg for help each time Im ready to go to floor 55 to grind to reset again or just forget the whole thing? I know many people find it easy enough to blast through, but I am not one of those and I am sure there are others out there with similar issues and stuck unable to progress to reset. 

There is also the time factor, with my disabilities I cant always be sure how long I will be able to play at any given time with the current structure may not even be able to complete a floor even if I had the skill to do so. I find it difficult to try to justify the time, effort and frustration required to participate in this system. I cannot even bring myself to play DD2 at all since I cant face the choice of farming c7 for nothing or constantly failing onslaught trying to reach floor 65 to reset at all.

From what I have read on discord and other places it also seems to depend allot on which heroes you own and how you like to DPS. if you can play with the "meta" builder and dps then its plain sailing, but what if you dont own them or simply dont like them? We were promised that DD2 would be built where every hero is equally viable to DPS on which simply isnt true as many who like me only play ranged will attest. I dont want to have to buy X hero just to complete it more efficiently, most of the recommendations for defenses I dont like using and if the hero is melee just forget it Im never going to switch to melee under any circumstances ever.

@RustyCounterweight quote:

@Tolkmit quote:

@RustyCounterweight quote:

You simply get end game gear by playing with no real grind or farming required. 

I'm not sure where or how you managed to come to the conclusion that I was even contemplating any sort of "grind" when I neither mentioned such a thing nor implied it in any way. 

I mean... you're half repeating yourself without listening to the response, half ignoring what you said previously, so at this point I'm not sure how to explain it to you any better. Doing the same thing over and over again with no new challenge and very minimal reward is exactly what "grinding" is, and is exactly what AP expects of players, despite you saying otherwise. 

Taking previously permanent player rewards away & forcing a player to re-earn them is poor game design, and I won't support it. They've had plenty of feedback, and plenty of time, to change how it works in the big summer update they've said is coming. If they choose to leave it as it, I'll invest my time/money in other games. It's that simple.

Sorry to disappoint you, but didn't ignore any of your response, I simply chose not to continue a pointless discussion on what the definition of "grinding" is relative to video games.   The fact is that EVERY game includes elements that can fit into the definition of "grinding".  

Your definition is so broad that EVERY game in existence [even non-video games] would be considered to be a grind.   Every portion of your definition is entirely subjective and can and will be interpreted differently from person to person.   The fact is that the definition is so broad that its pointless to even discuss it.  

Since you feel as if I ignored your response before, Ill ill add to it below (even though I still believe that the discussion is pointless).

Your definition of "grinding" is so broad that necessarily includes every game in existence, even those that you might personally believe to not require any "grinding".   To explain my point, I will break down your definition and provide reasonable explanations as to why it is too broad and therefore inapplicable in the following paragraphs.

Lets look at each element of your definition of "grinding" by starting with the entire definition;

"having to repeat the same content over and over again will little or no new challenge presented for the sake of very minor gain"

"having to"

If you endeavor to play a game, then you have no choice but to complete content set forth by the developers.   The genera of the game might determine what content and whether there is extra content that you can choose to complete, but you still "have to" complete something that the developers laid out for you.  

Even though you do not technically need to continue playing a game, you do "have to" complete set content to progress.

"repeat the same content over and over again"

Repeating the same content over and over is the essence of a game.   Here are some examples of repetitive play; 1) MMORPG - leveling/dungeons/battlegrounds/quests 2) Hack and Slash - killing mobs 3) Tower defense - replaying maps 4) Board games - starting a new game 5) sports - same rules same goal repeated every time.

I could go on with examples, but the fact is that every game is repetitive no matter the medium or genera.

"wi[th] little or no challenge presented"

This potion of your definition is best answered with the following question.   Who are you to determine what is a "challenge" for someone?.   You might find something to be easy, while another person finds that particular thing to be impossible.   What is challenging varies from person to person, so saying that something has "little to no challenge" is likely never going to be accurate when considering a large group of people [you might be able to make a representation of level of challenge relative to a tested group of people, but not is the general way that your definition implies].   Even when considering levels of "challenge" that  developer programs into a game, they have to base that designation on some per-determined scale which does not necessarily have a direct relation to whether a player finds any portion of it to be challenging.

The type of "challenge" that you are referring to in your definition is wholly subjective and is different for every player.   If you consider the DD2 player-base alone, you can see a huge difference of opinion as to what is and is not "challenging".

"for the sake of minor gain"

This is another portion of your definition that is best answered with a question.   Who are you to say that is and is or is not a "minor gain" or even a major gain?   What you might consider to be a minor gain might be a massive gain for another person.   Similarly, what you consider to be a massive gain might be a minor gain for another person.   Furthermore, what a person gains in a game inst necessarily limited to what a developer literally programs into it.   With regard to DD2, how can you say that having the option to progress in a manner other then endlessly gaining ascension points is only a "minor gain" for other people?   How can you say that providing motivation to simply play, and presumably enjoy playing, isn't a massive gain for players?

What one person finds to be a "gain", whether minor or major, is entirely up to that person.   There is no requirement that that "gain" literally be programed into the game.   Using such a playable measure of benefit such as "minor gain" is simply too general to be applicable, its too subjective to apply in the broad way taht your definition of "grinding" applies it.

You appear to want to have a discussion about what is and is not "grinding" and whether that is or is not applicable to DD2.   But, as I have repeatedly stated, that discussion is pointless.   At best, the concept of "grinding" only conveys the idea that a person is performing some action, which that person doesn't find to be enjoyable, for the purpose of achieving some goal.

--

You alleged that I don't "understand what is commonly meant by the term "grind" when in reference to video games", but it appears that the real issue is that your definition of grind that is inherently flawed (as discussed above).   When using your definition, you could accurately make the representation that YOU, personally, find certain content in a game to feel like a grind when YOU, personally, play that game.   Your definition of "grinding" cant apply to such a broad definition in the way that you applied it if you and ever hope to be anything but incorrect when applying it.

--

Now, in an attempt to avoid being accused of "ignoring" a response again, let me directly respond to each of your most recent points.

First of all, you say that i am "half repeating myself"..but I made that clear when I stated that I was elaborating on the point that you so clearly missed.   I chose not to get into an argument about such a subjective standard because such a discussion completely and utterly pointless on top of having nothing to do with the original topic.

Second, the allegedly "ignored" portion of your initial response should be fully explained above, along with why its pointless to discus the definition of "grind" that you seem to want to talk about.

Third, I never said that you, or anyone, should support or not support anything.   I simply asked for an explanation as to how you could claim to dislike something without giving it a chance (aka try it first).   To be clear, my initial question was not even specifically about the game or any of its changes.   It wasn't about whether you should or should not like the current changes in DD2.   The question was about how you can come to the conclusion that you like or dislike a certain mechanic without trying it first.  

Hopefully you find the above repose satisfactory.

One can easily find each weak point with your arguments. So why not me?

1."If you endeavor to play a game" . You're completely right. The AP system and other mechanics placed by the developers were soooo welcome that 90% of the player base left the game. I guess not o many people feel like making an endeavor to play this content anymore. Why is that? Let's not make a blind eye. When you lose 50% of your player base in 6 months something is wrong with your decisions.

2.Tower Defense is not MMORPG or Sports, i think that should be obvious by now. Yes i'll grind a RPG to face the next boss or be better geared to fight another player. You now what i'm not going to do? Go back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again. That would be crazy wouldn't it? I mean what's the purpose? The same thing happens with all games genre mentioned by you. Either the conditions for grind change or the mechanics change - a soccer match with Team A and B won't be the same with Team A and C.

3. Who is anyone to decide what's challenging? I can tell you. I make a layout for this level. I use this layout 600 times. This layout works 600 times. Is this challenging? Either in real life or virtual life repetitive tasking is not challenging. Never was, never will be.

4. Well i give you that, in this one you might be right. For me however there's no gain, only loss.

5 Grind is grind wherever i go. I mean it's on the dictionary. The problem is not his definition, it's you trying to say that every person is a snowflake that feels it should've a different meaning. Again 90% of the player base.

1. (of a state) oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end.

   "grinding poverty"
2. (of a sound or motion) harsh and grating.

   "the group's grinding, ear-splitting guitar"

Finally my opinion for whoever is reading this. This mechanic is bad and should be replaced. Lawlta said about changes to the drain aspect of reset. Hopefully we will see this mechanic going down the drain instead. One can only dream.

One can easily find each weak point with your arguments. So why not me?

1."If you endeavor to play a game" . You're completely right. The AP system and other mechanics placed by the developers were soooo welcome that 90% of the player base left the game. I guess not o many people feel like making an endeavor to play this content anymore. Why is that? Let's not make a blind eye. When you lose 50% of your player base in 6 months something is wrong with your decisions.

2.Tower Defense is not MMORPG or Sports, i think that should be obvious by now. Yes i'll grind a RPG to face the next boss or be better geared to fight another player. You now what i'm not going to do? Go back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again. That would be crazy wouldn't it? I mean what's the purpose? The same thing happens with all games genre mentioned by you. Either the conditions for grind change or the mechanics change - a soccer match with Team A and B won't be the same with Team A and C.

3. Who is anyone to decide what's challenging? I can tell you. I make a layout for this level. I use this layout 600 times. This layout works 600 times. Is this challenging? Either in real life or virtual life repetitive tasking is not challenging. Never was, never will be.

4. Well i give you that, in this one you might be right. For me however there's no gain, only loss.

5 Grind is grind wherever i go. I mean it's on the dictionary. The problem is not his definition, it's you trying to say that every person is a snowflake that feels it should've a different meaning. Again 90% of the player base.

1. (of a state) oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end.

   "grinding poverty"
2. (of a sound or motion) harsh and grating.

   "the group's grinding, ear-splitting guitar"

Finally my opinion for whoever is reading this. This mechanic is bad and should be replaced. Lawlta said about changes to the drain aspect of reset. Hopefully we will see this mechanic going down the drain instead. One can only dream.

You are making my point for me....whether something is or is not a "grind" when referring to video games is based solely on the OPINION of the person making that determination.

First of all, I have no problem accepting an accurate statistics but you have given no such statistic.   Instead, you provide completely baseless percentages.   Feel free to provide the proof that "90% of the player base left the game".   Feel free to prove that 50% of the player base was lost in a 6-month period and that that lase was the result of the mechanics that you are complaining about.   The fact is that you cant, because you don't have those numbers.

Also, you clearly failed to see my point a second time (or is it a third?).   You state what YOU are "not going to do" then you presume that everyone else will act the same way.   You say that its "crazy" to go "back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again".   Well, I say its crazy to do speed runs of any game or re-play a JRPG, but other people do it anyway.   Why do you think that is?   Ill tell you, its because THEY enjoy it and I don't.   Those people don't find it to be a grind because they enjoy those aspects of the game that I find to be a grind.   The same can be said about the reset system in DD2.   Just because some people find it to be a grind, doesn't mean that other do.   Whether the reset is or not a grind is entirely a person's own opinion and making a general statement that it is (or is not) is nothing more then a statement of someone's personal opinion.

 Your dictionary quote of the definition of "grind" is inapplicable tot he situation.   The reason it is inapplicable is that you fail to apply the definition in context.   Both of the definitions that you provide have definitive and testable circumstances that can be applied to them.   For example, whether something is "oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end" can be clearly defined.   Whether something is "harsh and grating" can be defined".   But whether a particular person finds a particular activity to be repetitive, challenging, or with minor gain (as your definition requires) is not definite and can not be defined.   At best, you could could say that people generally feel a certain way (assuming that you spent the effort to take an accurate survey of how people feel).

Furthermore, I never represented that anyone "is a snowflake".   I merely indicated that it is impossible to accurately make generalization, in that way that your definition attempts to do, when that generalization is based purely on subjective opinions.

@RustyCounterweight quote:

One can easily find each weak point with your arguments. So why not me?

1."If you endeavor to play a game" . You're completely right. The AP system and other mechanics placed by the developers were soooo welcome that 90% of the player base left the game. I guess not o many people feel like making an endeavor to play this content anymore. Why is that? Let's not make a blind eye. When you lose 50% of your player base in 6 months something is wrong with your decisions.

2.Tower Defense is not MMORPG or Sports, i think that should be obvious by now. Yes i'll grind a RPG to face the next boss or be better geared to fight another player. You now what i'm not going to do? Go back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again. That would be crazy wouldn't it? I mean what's the purpose? The same thing happens with all games genre mentioned by you. Either the conditions for grind change or the mechanics change - a soccer match with Team A and B won't be the same with Team A and C.

3. Who is anyone to decide what's challenging? I can tell you. I make a layout for this level. I use this layout 600 times. This layout works 600 times. Is this challenging? Either in real life or virtual life repetitive tasking is not challenging. Never was, never will be.

4. Well i give you that, in this one you might be right. For me however there's no gain, only loss.

5 Grind is grind wherever i go. I mean it's on the dictionary. The problem is not his definition, it's you trying to say that every person is a snowflake that feels it should've a different meaning. Again 90% of the player base.

1. (of a state) oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end.

   "grinding poverty"
2. (of a sound or motion) harsh and grating.

   "the group's grinding, ear-splitting guitar"

Finally my opinion for whoever is reading this. This mechanic is bad and should be replaced. Lawlta said about changes to the drain aspect of reset. Hopefully we will see this mechanic going down the drain instead. One can only dream.

You are making my point for me....whether something is or is not a "grind" when referring to video games is based solely on the OPINION of the person making that determination.

First of all, I have no problem accepting an accurate statistics but you have given no such statistic.   Instead, you provide completely baseless percentages.   Feel free to provide the proof that "90% of the player base left the game".   Feel free to prove that 50% of the player base was lost in a 6-month period and that that lase was the result of the mechanics that you are complaining about.   The fact is that you cant, because you don't have those numbers.

Also, you clearly failed to see my point a second time (or is it a third?).   You state what YOU are "not going to do" then you presume that everyone else will act the same way.   You say that its "crazy" to go "back to the same boss lvl 999 and kill it over and over again".   Well, I say its crazy to do speed runs of any game or re-play a JRPG, but other people do it anyway.   Why do you think that is?   Ill tell you, its because THEY enjoy it and I don't.   Those people don't find it to be a grind because they enjoy those aspects of the game that I find to be a grind.   The same can be said about the reset system in DD2.   Just because some people find it to be a grind, doesn't mean that other do.   Whether the reset is or not a grind is entirely a person's own opinion and making a general statement that it is (or is not) is nothing more then a statement of someone's personal opinion.

 Your dictionary quote of the definition of "grind" is inapplicable tot he situation.   The reason it is inapplicable is that you fail to apply the definition in context.   Both of the definitions that you provide have definitive and testable circumstances that can be applied to them.   For example, whether something is "oppressive, tedious, and seemingly without end" can be clearly defined.   Whether something is "harsh and grating" can be defined".   But whether a particular person finds a particular activity to be repetitive, challenging, or with minor gain (as your definition requires) is not definite and can not be defined.   At best, you could could say that people generally feel a certain way (assuming that you spent the effort to take an accurate survey of how people feel).

Furthermore, I never represented that anyone "is a snowflake".   I merely indicated that it is impossible to accurately make generalization, in that way that your definition attempts to do, when that generalization is based purely on subjective opinions.

1. You might wanna do you homework before saying what i can and cannot do. http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#All . The all time peak of player was 18744 to a 971 that's a 95% loss. Oh you might say that we had a special event, all staff was online and that's why the peak was so high. Ok then let's look the average player count per month. From 5800 to 511, that's a 92% loss. Boy oh boy that's statistics for you. Notice that the biggest losses happened in less than 3 months. I guess i gave 6 months and said 90%, that's more months than i should've given and less loss percentage as well. Are you sure you know what a fact is by now?

2. I'm not the same person you were arguing with. I just saw the total lack of evidence to support any of your claims and i decided to join in. Please read my name.

3. Again you're comparing two things that either change the reason to do it or the mechanic itself. I guess i entered the portal to another world where speedrun Tower Defenses games is the most popular thing ever. Next time let's compare Africa to Etheria from Dungeon Defenders. I mean same thing right? 

4. "Opressive, tedious, and seemingly without end". How come that doesn't apply? That's the word for you with the dictionary definition, huh. I don't even understand why are you trying to debate the meaning of the word grind. Grind, water, field will have the same meaning wherever i go. Nobody looks at the water and say pumpkin. 

so im looking at http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#All 

Context is important looking at charts like these. I see the game launched in June of 2017 had a surge of players checking out the f2p game and that tapered off to around 600 average active players any given day and has been floating around there.

The big surge of players before that was when the game went open beta and that large playerbase likewise fell off.

So next we need to know is a average 500 player base good for this game considering this is 1 of 3 platforms its on.

Lets look at another example of a action tower defense game

Orcs must die:

http://steamcharts.com/app/427270

It had a spike at the same time as dd2 last year during launch, but its numbers fell of much more quickly and is far behind this games current playerbase.

Current DD2 seems sustainable at its current numbers compared to the next big tower defense game. 

Now the question is how does dd2 compare to dd1

http://steamcharts.com/app/65800

The first big spike for dd2 was in 2015 when the game went open beta. So dd1 numbers would have to be looked at before october 2015.

DD1 had several expansions where the playerbase temporarily surged but held steady between 500-800 for 2 years before dd2 open beta occured. This is a higher average then dd2 currently has. But its not a huge drop off, and its no where near the 90% discussed. 

@Nigiri_Toro quote:

so im looking at http://steamcharts.com/app/236110#All 

Context is important looking at charts like these. I see the game launched in June of 2017 had a surge of players checking out the f2p game and that tapered off to around 600 average active players any given day and has been floating around there.

The big surge of players before that was when the game went open beta and that large playerbase likewise fell off.

So next we need to know is a average 500 player base good for this game considering this is 1 of 3 platforms its on.

Lets look at another example of a action tower defense game

Orcs must die:

http://steamcharts.com/app/427270

It had a spike at the same time as dd2 last year during launch, but its numbers fell of much more quickly and is far behind this games current playerbase.

Current DD2 seems sustainable at its current numbers compared to the next big tower defense game. 

Now the question is how does dd2 compare to dd1

http://steamcharts.com/app/65800

The first big spike for dd2 was in 2015 when the game went open beta. So dd1 numbers would have to be looked at before october 2015.

DD1 had several expansions where the playerbase temporarily surged but held steady between 500-800 for 2 years before dd2 open beta occured. This is a higher average then dd2 currently has. But its not a huge drop off, and its no where near the 90% discussed. 

FInally someone to argue with. I would say context is important to any chart. 

While i agree with you that keeping an average player somehow close to your competitor is good or at least essential i believe that a developer should never aim for just what's necessary. Next month the necessary might be 100 and as you can see the average now is the lowest since April 2015. 

To me comparing DD 1 to DD 2 was never a question, it's the same developer after all. I'm aware that countless comparisons can be made starting from the gameplay to the player count. My question was: is the evasion of players due to developers decisions?  To answer that question we should look at the spikes, the losses like i said. Why are they coming back? Why did they decide to play the game? Why they left after they tried it?  

March 2016 / 3972 players - May 2016 / 1976 players => 50% loss in 2 months.

October 2016 / 4531 players - December 2016 / 1708 players => 63% loss in 2 months.

I won't be doing that for every spike but as you noticed this keeps happening in a short period of time which doesn't happen with Orcs Must Die. That associated with the complains about lack of endgame content - before mastery and onslaught and recent complains about AP led me to the conclusion that the main reason for the evasion is the developers decision. Hopefully we can agree on this one.