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Plasma

Opinions on Resetting as a Part of Progression

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Any new endgame content has to consider Ancient Power so I am curious as to what everybodys' opinions are on resetting as a game progression mechanic. Where do you stand on this?

On one hand, you will be constantly replacing gear and that gives you a strong sense of progression. And each time you reset you increase your efficiency and potential power in the long haul. The players who enjoy the current system are those who value the mastery of a game. 

On the other hand, it can strip a lot of the thrill for obtaining and spending resources on items and investment in general. Perhaps you don't even want to find an absolutely epic piece of gear because you know that you are supposed to get rid of it as part of the game's progression. And why waste gold on anything that isn't explicitly necessary? This serves to hurt diversity because there is a punishment for not being calculated.

Furthermore, is there an amount of resets you think is reasonable to be required for future content? 

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The AP reset system has basically made gear transitory, nothing is special or ever will be special.

There is no reason to farm for that particular axe or bow, its only going to get nuked.

I think the AP idea has tied Trendy's hands, they can't make gear special, unless you can keep it, and if you keep it at the C7 level it means you can instantly access C7 upon reset as your gear is maintained. Although you could Vault it and it only unlocks when you hit C7, maybe that will work but requires coding.

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@Plasma quote:

On the other hand, it can strip a lot of the thrill for obtaining and spending resources on items and investment in general. Perhaps you don't even want to find an absolutely epic piece of gear because you know that you are supposed to get rid of it as part of the game's progression. And why waste gold on anything that isn't explicitly necessary? This serves to hurt diversity because there is a punishment for not being calculated.

This part is much closer to me i think. I really do want to use the reset system, and the thought of even more power is very enticing. However, the cost of all shards, all gear, and all pet progress is too high for me at all, let alone the incremental advantage you get for that cost. Especially now given that we have even more expanded item capacity, otherwise what good is that for? I don't want to lose the freedom of using any character's towers once you get caught in the reset loop. I want the game to find ways to expand my freedoms, not limit them. This seems to be a constant struggle in DD2... Mastery, Chaos enemies, mutators, Ascension points, and even the AP cycle - all seem to be focused on limiting your choices and freedoms. 

That being said, based on the hints placed in the last update, i am very hopeful the reset system will get looked at and the gear will no longer reset in some future update. Excluding the whole pet debacle and shard costs, that actually  may make resetting much more attractive to me. 

I just hope that TE can find a way to revamp this system to make it more appealing, while not punishing those who have already been using it for a while now. A mutual solution would go a long way for both sides. 

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Not to mention it's not just gear that gets reset but your shards and as well. So besides redoing the campaign again, your pratically starting a new game with a passive buff and a little exp/gold boost. 

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I'm not interested in AP as it stands right now. It's because of the same reason I stopped playing diablo 3. U get invested on your character, u level up ur gear, shards, weapons, etc and then what? Lose it all to start again for a tiny minimal buff? No thanks.

I really have no interest in doing all the chaos trials again or reaching floor 65 again just to get a minimal buff. Progression should be about doing new things.. on marching forward not re-doing the same content over and over again.

Right now I'm having good fun doing onslaught (currently floor 78). It is challenging, every floor I advance It gets harder and it feels good when u beat it.

I'm not really a huge fan of losing all your gear and having to upgrade it again.


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im currently on AP 23, ive also got my talent caps to 505 right now. Even did a quick 200 floor push to get the talent caps higher after grinding some ascension to use the increased caps.

Talent cap increase is great, its where the real strength of AP is, at 999 ap you are looking at ~19800 defense crit dmg and tower defense power. thats not minimal thats basically another relic on each tower.

XP and gold bonuses are really good too, I have more then x2 permanent xp and gold now on my account and im starting to break even on AP gold costs, and I level up quickly (about 11 million xp per c7 map right now).


The grind is boring, theres no challenge in it, c1-c7 takes about 3-4 hours of pretty much afk grinding, and this is the most fun part because you are getting upgrades, but its old content and if you can beat onslaught floor 65, nothing in trials content should be challenging anymore. Then you have to do this at least 50 times with 3-4 floor pushes to the mid 100's just to cap out your talent caps. You are looking at a 1000+ hour timesink. I just dont see most the playebase doing this. 

Speaking of floor 65, theres no real difficulty increase between 60-65, its a very repetitive boring grind with no challenge after you figure out how to build against each lane type. Even in higher floors there wasnt a noticeable difference in difficulty till you got closer to floor 200. The whole difficulty scaling is too slow imo.


 


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@Nigiri_Toro quote:

im currently on AP 23, ive also got my talent caps to 505 right now. Even did a quick 200 floor push to get the talent caps higher after grinding some ascension to use the increased caps.

Talent cap increase is great, its where the real strength of AP is, at 999 ap you are looking at ~19800 defense crit dmg and tower defense power. thats not minimal thats basically another relic on each tower.

XP and gold bonuses are really good too, I have more then x2 permanent xp and gold now on my account and im starting to break even on AP gold costs, and I level up quickly (about 11 million xp per c7 map right now).


The grind is boring, theres no challenge in it, c1-c7 takes about 3-4 hours of pretty much afk grinding, and this is the most fun part because you are getting upgrades, but its old content and if you can beat onslaught floor 65, nothing in trials content should be challenging anymore. Then you have to do this at least 50 times with 3-4 floor pushes to the mid 100's just to cap out your talent caps. You are looking at a 1000+ hour timesink. I just dont see most the playebase doing this. 

Speaking of floor 65, theres no real difficulty increase between 60-65, its a very repetitive boring grind with no challenge after you figure out how to build against each lane type. Even in higher floors there wasnt a noticeable difference in difficulty till you got closer to floor 200. The whole difficulty scaling is too slow imo.


 


You had to reset 23 times in order to gain those bonuses. That's a huge amount of time. So yeah, the gains are pretty minimal. Also, after 23 resets u just ''started to break even on AP gold costs'' so that's another big no no for me.

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that was my point, speaking from experience the grind is way too long vs the reward. This is one of the things trendy has hinted about addressing in the big boi update

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@Nigiri_Toro quote:

Talent cap increase is great, its where the real strength of AP is, at 999 ap you are looking at ~19800 defense crit dmg and tower defense power. thats not minimal thats basically another relic on each tower.

I know xD. I was addressing that part. If it takes 999 resets to essentially get ''another relic'' the system is pretty flawed.

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The biggest flaw, imo, for the Ascension system is that the shard reset severely limits the number of characters I play.  Dryad, Monk, EV2, and Squire.  Those are all I need to run to the next reset.  Knowing that the shards will be wiped, I have no reason to equip my other characters.  A deck of 20 characters has been reduced to 4.

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I hate to say it, but the reset system is probably the reason I lost the last desire to play...

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Same for me. As a semi casual player that farmed and gained up to around 1000 ascension over a year time then just demand that you play another year only doing c1-65? and nothing else? No thank you. It's so broken system I can't even understand how Trendy could implement it like it is now. 

@MaJean quote:

I hate to say it, but the reset system is probably the reason I lost the last desire to play...


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@pRefa quote:


@Nigiri_Toro quote:

Talent cap increase is great, its where the real strength of AP is, at 999 ap you are looking at ~19800 defense crit dmg and tower defense power. thats not minimal thats basically another relic on each tower.

I know xD. I was addressing that part. If it takes 999 resets to essentially get ''another relic'' the system is pretty flawed.

Only gonna take me 50 resets to cap out, getting 11 cap per ap now, plus the ones i gained from the floor push.

you could do it in 13 resets of going to floor 130. That would cap you at 999.

If i had it all to do over again thats what I would do.

You could probably even do it in 10 resets.

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@Plasma quote:

Any new endgame content has to consider Ancient Power so I am curious as to what everybodys' opinions are on resetting as a game progression mechanic. Where do you stand on this?

On one hand, you will be constantly replacing gear and that gives you a strong sense of progression. And each time you reset you increase your efficiency and potential power in the long haul. The players who enjoy the current system are those who value the mastery of a game. 

On the other hand, it can strip a lot of the thrill for obtaining and spending resources on items and investment in general. Perhaps you don't even want to find an absolutely epic piece of gear because you know that you are supposed to get rid of it as part of the game's progression. And why waste gold on anything that isn't explicitly necessary? This serves to hurt diversity because there is a punishment for not being calculated.

Furthermore, is there an amount of resets you think is reasonable to be required for future content? 

This is probably so from the realm of possibility but hey lets theorize. 

What if you did the grind all the way up and found pieces of gear you liked and were ready to reset. When you finally reset the gear you are wearing retains it's max possible stats and attribute types. But the current stats are dropped to level appropriate gear based on the heroes' level. So as you level your heroes back up, the stats slowly go back up on the gear until you regain the original values. Hell you could even give the gear a reset tracker that increases the gold sell value so that if one day you find a new piece you like better then you could get a little something extra for your hard work.

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@Fozzie quote:

The AP reset system has basically made gear transitory, nothing is special or ever will be special.

There is no reason to farm for that particular axe or bow, its only going to get nuked.

I think the AP idea has tied Trendy's hands, they can't make gear special, unless you can keep it, and if you keep it at the C7 level it means you can instantly access C7 upon reset as your gear is maintained. Although you could Vault it and it only unlocks when you hit C7, maybe that will work but requires coding.

The best way around that would to allow slots for items that will not be rerolled. Let's just say every item in the bank. Then, you must see a drop of gear score equal to the item in storage to be able to equip it.  Shards could still be reset and pets as well, although pets don't offer a significant enough advantage either way. 

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If onslaught was 1 floor and your AP was worth more than 1% and didn't cap at 5%.

It may have been worth doing and even at 1 floor the grind would still be there. However you will feel like you actually progressed.

Like others I stopped playing because no one wants to see there progress gone for minimal rewards. Also I tried something different by helping friends climb in Onslaught and they got the occasional disconnect error.

Which just wasted our time.

The 3 floors with out a save kills it for me. When you lose from no error of your own and it's on Trendy's side with no way of recovering your lost progress,

Well that's just poor game design.

On a side note I keep looking at this black magic staff for my Adept and am like I just don't want to lose you... you sexy thing.

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It just feels silly to reset back to C1 and lose gear. I think the AP part of the game could stay the same but you reset to floor 55 with all your gear and it's more about earning bonuses and ascension buffs as you grind and push floors. This lets you always be at maximum power and fully geared.

I think the reset-push floor-grind floor thing has a lot of promise but needs reworking. You should be able to push 65 on C7 gear but need to reset and earn some buffs before being able to push the next 10 floors and so on. There should be some incentive for grinding on higher floors instead of playing C7 over and over with overpowered gear.

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@Plasma quote:

Any new endgame content has to consider Ancient Power so I am curious as to what everybodys' opinions are on resetting as a game progression mechanic. Where do you stand on this?

Maybe I am in the minority, but I find the reset to be the best part of the game at the moment.  


Frankly, I find the extra time that you have to spend on tower placement that results form Mutators to be boring.   After resetting multiple times, I am at the point where I have no motivation to play the late game onslaught (even if its only to do floors 57-65).   (To be clear, I am not trying to say that Mutators are bad....just that the extra building time make playing the game-play boring for me)


On the other hand, staring from C1 gear and re-gearing has been very enjoyable (since Mutatotrs don't add a lot of build time in early onslaught).   That enjoyment comes from being able to just set down towers from any character that I feel like using at the time and not having to worry about something dumb happening that forces me re-roll or replay (since replacing the towers is fast and easy if I do need to reset for some reason).


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@Nigiri_Toro quote:


Speaking of floor 65, theres no real difficulty increase between 60-65, its a very repetitive boring grind with no challenge after you figure out how to build against each lane type. Even in higher floors there wasnt a noticeable difference in difficulty till you got closer to floor 200. The whole difficulty scaling is too slow imo.


 

Using dryad or without ? Just curious.


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I avoid Onslaught as much as possible, effectively until I have to play it at 55.

It is much harder than Trials, purely due to the mutators, and the curse that is the Temple of Doom. It's just way too random. Some lane and crystal mixes are simple others are horrendous.

If onslaught 55-65 wasn't so punishing for time and just fookoffability for RNG and multiplayer retrictions it would be more accessible and more likely people would reset.

There are some that have fully bought into the whole resetathon, but I doubt even they would say this is ideal.

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@Fozzie quote:

There are some that have fully bought into the whole resetathon, but I doubt even they would say this is ideal.

This is proving to be very true. I know that Blade (a guy who presitged over 70 times!) just completely lost motivation to continue. Nigiri has expressed numerous times on the discord that he feels the grind is quite boring due to the slow scaling of difficulty. And here I've gotten an interesting reply from a person who says they like to reset because later game onslaught is a chore.

However, Macros is still going and I don't think I have seen his opinion on the AP system.

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@mmm quote:


@Nigiri_Toro quote:


Speaking of floor 65, theres no real difficulty increase between 60-65, its a very repetitive boring grind with no challenge after you figure out how to build against each lane type. Even in higher floors there wasnt a noticeable difference in difficulty till you got closer to floor 200. The whole difficulty scaling is too slow imo.


 

Using dryad or without ? Just curious.


I have done it both ways. dryad is the super lazy way where i dont have to swap characters which saves time and speeds up the runs, so obviously im doing that a lot more.

Last floor i did a non dryad build on was 185, it was still fine. If you pair up a non dryad build with the barbarian its even better since he can solo any lane allowing you to overbuild the rest of them.

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@Nigiri_Toro quote:


@mmm quote:


@Nigiri_Toro quote:


Speaking of floor 65, theres no real difficulty increase between 60-65, its a very repetitive boring grind with no challenge after you figure out how to build against each lane type. Even in higher floors there wasnt a noticeable difference in difficulty till you got closer to floor 200. The whole difficulty scaling is too slow imo.


 

Using dryad or without ? Just curious.


I have done it both ways. dryad is the super lazy way where i dont have to swap characters which saves time and speeds up the runs, so obviously im doing that a lot more.

Last floor i did a non dryad build on was 185, it was still fine. If you pair up a non dryad build with the barbarian its even better since he can solo any lane allowing you to overbuild the rest of them.

yeah but thats my point, since they failed so hard to balance the game they cannot balance the levels either, I only play onslaught non OP cause I like it the old way and the challenge and it is fun and challenging (up to a point obviously) but it is also highly inefficient and very time consuming.


Also due to random crash and server stuff this way is very punishing, I had 3 crash all on third floor level wave 5 and I was VERY pissed off.


I think anyway Onlslaugh was the way to go and they should have made it sooner, but yeah the whole system now is again in a point where it is pretty much impossibile to rebalance the game anyway, they cannot insert chaos 8 cause it would be pointless for all the hardcore gamers etc etc


All the problems started from a very bad "release" and the fact they had to run behind all the players all the time.


Like I said probably years ago this game would need a good balance pass, a good plan for all the game mode and then a full Nuke of the players.


It is impossible to keep adding content while the old isnt even fixed.

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@RustyCounterweight quote:


@Plasma quote:

Any new endgame content has to consider Ancient Power so I am curious as to what everybodys' opinions are on resetting as a game progression mechanic. Where do you stand on this?

Maybe I am in the minority, but I find the reset to be the best part of the game at the moment.  


Frankly, I find the extra time that you have to spend on tower placement that results form Mutators to be boring.   After resetting multiple times, I am at the point where I have no motivation to play the late game onslaught (even if its only to do floors 57-65).   (To be clear, I am not trying to say that Mutators are bad....just that the extra building time make playing the game-play boring for me)


On the other hand, staring from C1 gear and re-gearing has been very enjoyable (since Mutatotrs don't add a lot of build time in early onslaught).   That enjoyment comes from being able to just set down towers from any character that I feel like using at the time and not having to worry about something dumb happening that forces me re-roll or replay (since replacing the towers is fast and easy if I do need to reset for some reason).


Yeah.....55 to 65 is just painful. It reminds me on my painful runs of 113.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:


@RustyCounterweight quote:


@Plasma quote:

Any new endgame content has to consider Ancient Power so I am curious as to what everybodys' opinions are on resetting as a game progression mechanic. Where do you stand on this?

Maybe I am in the minority, but I find the reset to be the best part of the game at the moment.  


Frankly, I find the extra time that you have to spend on tower placement that results form Mutators to be boring.   After resetting multiple times, I am at the point where I have no motivation to play the late game onslaught (even if its only to do floors 57-65).   (To be clear, I am not trying to say that Mutators are bad....just that the extra building time make playing the game-play boring for me)


On the other hand, staring from C1 gear and re-gearing has been very enjoyable (since Mutatotrs don't add a lot of build time in early onslaught).   That enjoyment comes from being able to just set down towers from any character that I feel like using at the time and not having to worry about something dumb happening that forces me re-roll or replay (since replacing the towers is fast and easy if I do need to reset for some reason).


Yeah.....55 to 65 is just painful. It reminds me on my painful runs of 113.

i thought i was the only one . i pretty much stopped playing after hitting floor 114 then finally did a reset. i had fun doing 6 resets but dreaded floor 55-65. i consider myself a pretty good player but some frost lanes give me problems sometimes . i think TE should have made a C8 with frost enemies and move that incursion map over to C8 and make adjustments to onslaught to balance it all out. the big haired sword wielding guys seem way OP . I think its funny i ignore boss lanes and have to work the frost lanes. since some people have reset a ridiculous number of times i wonder just how much TE can improve the AP system without them being crazy OP. at the same time if u spend 3k hours in a game u might deserve to be OP :) right now i sit on floor 58 with 6 AP points and i just dont have it in me to reset anymore. 

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