Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
danielmenezes

Snaking sands bug or purposeful mechanic...

Recommended Posts

This trap can't simple hit a lady orc.At the start i was thinking than lady orcs run faster enough to avoid the trigger when do damage but i increased range with vicious strike and deadly strike and was not doing damage even i seeing the flow.One of the time was passing 5 during the full flow in separate times of the trigger and none of them was getting hitted.

To make sure, I let the initials lady orcs on c4 pass untill reach my blockade (maw-maw) to see if the snaking would do damage placing next to him which remove the uncatch situtation..Was activating but didn't do any damage and also the maw-maw dont petrify either the lady orc lol.

Why this is not noticeable by anyone??The snaking would be the best trap to deal with them together with the LSA but simple can't do any damage doesn't matter how.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The lady orcs are immune to slow mechanics, and the sands trap is a slow mechanic. 

Now whether or not it should still hit the enemy or/and do any damage is another topic, and one that seems to waffle here in DD2. There is a current issue with Dryad slimes on this same topic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Berserker orcs are immune to the Snaking Sands trap. Because they can't be slowed, they don't sink into the sand, preventing the damage and stun. Hope this clears things up! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I now have the image of Berserkers doing the baywatch run along the beach for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Jaws_420 quote:

The lady orcs are immune to slow mechanics, and the sands trap is a slow mechanic. 

Now whether or not it should still hit the enemy or/and do any damage is another topic, and one that seems to waffle here in DD2. There is a current issue with Dryad slimes on this same topic. 

That's not an issue with Dryad slimes. That's with oil debuff in general right now (if it can't be slowed, it's not getting oiled). All oil debuffs slow, and we're trying to work towards them being separate (it can't be slowed, but oiled still applies).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Lawlta quote:

That's not an issue with Dryad slimes. That's with oil debuff in general right now (if it can't be slowed, it's not getting oiled). All oil debuffs slow, and we're trying to work towards them being separate (it can't be slowed, but oiled still applies).

I guess what i mean by issue is - the descriptions says that they are immune to slow effects, but not necessarily immune to the tower as a whole. By logic, i expect the tower to then still hit the enemy with the oil, cover them in it - but the enemy does not slow down. They should still take damage, and be coated in oil, but never slowed. I know there is a bug with this, but this seems to have been bugged one way (slowing Zerks) or another ever since i have played DD2. 

So by that same analogy i was referencing the sand trap - it should not slow the enemy down, but it should still hit them and do damage. I don't know if it does nor not though, as if it does not do damage - then it would be exactly like the Oil issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Jaws_420 quote:


@Lawlta quote:

That's not an issue with Dryad slimes. That's with oil debuff in general right now (if it can't be slowed, it's not getting oiled). All oil debuffs slow, and we're trying to work towards them being separate (it can't be slowed, but oiled still applies).

I guess what i mean by issue is - the descriptions says that they are immune to slow effects, but not necessarily immune to the tower as a whole. By logic, i expect the tower to then still hit the enemy with the oil, cover them in it - but the enemy does not slow down. They should still take damage, and be coated in oil, but never slowed. I know there is a bug with this, but this seems to have been bugged one way (slowing Zerks) or another ever since i have played DD2. 

So by that same analogy i was referencing the sand trap - it should not slow the enemy down, but it should still hit them and do damage. I don't know if it does nor not though, as if it does not do damage - then it would be exactly like the Oil issue. 

That's the point..The sand should do damage to him and maybe just as important as hit have the stun effect of damage.The problem is than this tower has a process like start<slow<push enemies<and hit making the enemies stunned with damage.

If stun is also considered slow, the passive shards like stun fire should not work against lady orcs..

The reason towards this problem is the confusion around slow and stop effect i believe.Oil should be considered slow and stun stop effect but just the poor snaking and maw maw got a issue.Imagine the piss of players if sudenly the slime pit can't hit lady orc at all which is the main reason than lady orcs don't give more problems with mono dryad builds.

With this those lady orcs could get frozen for example as long the frostbyte hit enough to freeze but won't slow her.Is just a incoherence to have oil effect working since this actually delay her movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Specifically for the sand trap, the idea is that you get slowed progressively because you sink into the sand. Eventually a point is reached where you cannot move any more (stunned), and then the damage is inflicted.  If you don't sink, you don't reach that point, therefore not getting stunned or damaged.

Here's an idea of what it looks like thematically

dF5L6mX.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But.... surely the THICness of the lady orc causes them to sink into the sand? Unless they are incredibly light-footed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Plasma quote:

But.... surely the THICness of the lady orc causes them to sink into the sand? Unless they are incredibly light-footed.

Look at how tiny and light those feet are!

m5SDqam.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bonus points on that snakestache....LOL    Sharkman_insane.png


This thread brings up a great point about Zerks though. Are they immune to slow effects, or are they immune to and not targeted by any defense that has a slow mechanic? As those are two completely separate things. 

Take as an example the Frostbite tower. I believe it currently does not target Zerks, because they cannot be slowed. However, i can put a shard in it that causes freeze to occur, which can be inflicted on Zerks. But now i cannot freeze Zerks with it because they are not targeted; however, on the flipside if i do not have that shard in - i do not want my tower targeting enemies that are immune, so i don't want Zerks to be targeted. Either way there is a major drawback. 

Maybe we can come up with our own list of all defenses that we know completely ignore Zerks (do not apply status effect, do not do damage, and do not target) - with the Sands Trap being our first one. I think the Frostbite tower is also on that list. I'm not sure if LM's Oil Trap does anything to them (e.g. apply oil or do damage). Any others (not including SGT of course)? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Lawlta quote:

Specifically for the sand trap, the idea is that you get slowed progressively because you sink into the sand. Eventually a point is reached where you cannot move any more (stunned), and then the damage is inflicted.  If you don't sink, you don't reach that point, therefore not getting stunned or damaged.

Here's an idea of what it looks like thematically

dF5L6mX.png

I'm sorry but you missed the Physics Classrooms when you were in school (please don't consider this as an insult on Staff member, let me explain)

The idea of moving sand as you explained it is very good actualy but it has another decisive factor ... MASS, if an object has higher mass per volume ratio it means it will sink faster ... on the other hand if the mass is to small and weight is small the object is not going to sink at all ... real life example ... a piece of paper will not sink AT ALL  in any sand (moving sand or snaking sand or my cat's sand).

@Lawlta quote:


@Plasma quote:

But.... surely the THICness of the lady orc causes them to sink into the sand? Unless they are incredibly light-footed.

Look at how tiny and light those feet are!

m5SDqam.png

The surface area of the foot has an impact on sinking as well, you're right ... BUT ... it has to consider weight (mass) ... if the object is heavy and small footprint it will accelerate the sinking ... not preventing it ... so according to this image ... the Bezerker should sink faster than most DD2 monsters ... Emoji_Ogre.png Not to mention Ogers... they should be INSTA-STUNNED.


P.S. if you want to explain to the players that "Bezerers don't get stuned, or slowed" just apply MAGIC ... this game is in a Fantasy realm ... so just tell them that Zerkers have recived a special spell from the Old One to be imune to slow ... look in her eyes and you'll admit it ... this way you add more content to the lore of the game and make things more immersive ... i mean i would belive you ... Emoji_Apprentice.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@emilian quote:

I'm sorry but you missed the Physics Classrooms when you were in school (please don't consider this as an insult on Staff member, let me explain)

The idea of moving sand as you explained it is very good actualy but it has another decisive factor ... MASS, if an object has higher mass per volume ratio it means it will sink faster ... on the other hand if the mass is to small and weight is small the object is not going to sink at all ... real life example ... a piece of paper will not sink AT ALL in any sand (moving sand or snaking sand or my cat's sand).

I'm sorry but it is YOU who missed the Physics Classrooms when YOU were in school (please don't consider this as an insult on Defender, let me explain).

UUn8tro.png
Fig. A

The idea of moving sand as I explained it is very good actually. MASS, if an object has higher mass per volume ratio it means it will sink faster. On the other hand if the mass is to small and weight is small the object is not going to sink at all. Real life example: a floating in mid-air T-Rex will not sink AT ALL in any sand (moving sand or snaking sand or my bat's sand).

The surface area of the foot does not have an impact on the surface area, because their feet never touch the ground, so it does not consider weight (mass). They are so light footed (something discussed in my previous post) that their feet never even touch the ground, as illustrated in Fig. A above. The Berzerker shouldn't sink at all.

<3 Mwahahahahahaha!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

hmmmm.........

But if there's no impact, then wouldn't the berserkers won't be able to even move even a step forward?


There are some very scientific forces at work that we can't really discuss as we're under an NDA with the FBI's Alien Physic's department, but think of it more like Link's hoverboots:
link+vs+ganondorf+ocarina+of+time+boss+b

Or less flight-based version of this

206zhg0.gif

Or like this owl

1c91b915ca96a859411fde11eded7972.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Lawlta quote:


UUn8tro.png
Fig. A

Real life example: a floating in mid-air T-Rex will not sink AT ALL in any sand (moving sand or snaking sand or my bat's sand).

I knew i missed something in class ... 

i'll start research on the "quantum field of general gravity" right away ...  i always wished to be the smartest person in class ... This time LawIta got me for good ... Emoji_DarkMage.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@emilian quote:
I knew i missed something in class ... 
i'll start research on the "quantum field of general gravity" right away ...  i always wished to be the smartest person in class ... This time LawIta got me for good ... Emoji_DarkMage.png

Striving to be the best/smartest is always very admirable. It's the main plot of most anime!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Lawlta quote:


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

hmmmm.........

But if there's no impact, then wouldn't the berserkers won't be able to even move even a step forward?


There are some very scientific forces at work that we can't really discuss as we're under an NDA with the FBI's Alien Physic's department, but think of it more like Link's hoverboots:
link+vs+ganondorf+ocarina+of+time+boss+b

Or less flight-based version of this

206zhg0.gif

Or like this owl

1c91b915ca96a859411fde11eded7972.gif

Oh I see. Haha, ok, I'll settle for that ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Jaws_420 quote:

Bonus points on that snakestache....LOL    Sharkman_insane.png


This thread brings up a great point about Zerks though. Are they immune to slow effects, or are they immune to and not targeted by any defense that has a slow mechanic? As those are two completely separate things. 

Take as an example the Frostbite tower. I believe it currently does not target Zerks, because they cannot be slowed. However, i can put a shard in it that causes freeze to occur, which can be inflicted on Zerks. But now i cannot freeze Zerks with it because they are not targeted; however, on the flipside if i do not have that shard in - i do not want my tower targeting enemies that are immune, so i don't want Zerks to be targeted. Either way there is a major drawback. 

Maybe we can come up with our own list of all defenses that we know completely ignore Zerks (do not apply status effect, do not do damage, and do not target) - with the Sands Trap being our first one. I think the Frostbite tower is also on that list. I'm not sure if LM's Oil Trap does anything to them (e.g. apply oil or do damage). Any others (not including SGT of course)? 

This was one of the two reason that i made the thread.I was thinking than snaking sands works a little differently than lawlta explained than instead of the slow mechanic was a way to make the ground snake attack would be a manner to make sure than enemies wouldn't pass by and simple avoid the attack because is faster than the process of "call the snake" and the range of snaking without buffs are poor.I knew it than lady orcs are immune to slow but i think he would take the damage from the snaking sand because the snaking sands should hit everything in the range when arrive.For what it looks you need  to burrow enemies to enable the damage which is cool but make the trap broken in a game which damage ratio is everything.

The other reason is the trap itself.This trap cost 20 mana but really with the state of the game in which certain enemies are really the ones that threat you (frosties,cybork and lady orcs) you have a trap that can really attack in 8s recharge and even not hit anything if enemies get killed first is a waste of du.Essencially those threats units can't really get countered by snaking and mutator like immune to slow or stun block any use.Something needs to change with this trap : the recharge time to (4-5),the snaking sands only need to recharge if he attacks any enemy making her a slow trap which in this case would have good synergy with auras or make the damage from the snake a separate thing with stun effect included.Right now just seems that you could use in game ogre and timmy revenge mutators to have a good use.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Lawlta quote:


@Jaws_420 quote:

The lady orcs are immune to slow mechanics, and the sands trap is a slow mechanic. 

Now whether or not it should still hit the enemy or/and do any damage is another topic, and one that seems to waffle here in DD2. There is a current issue with Dryad slimes on this same topic. 

That's not an issue with Dryad slimes. That's with oil debuff in general right now (if it can't be slowed, it's not getting oiled). All oil debuffs slow, and we're trying to work towards them being separate (it can't be slowed, but oiled still applies).

That sounds like an awesome change for lavamancer.

But I still don't get why they can't be stunned by a trap that applies slow, then pulls back, then stuns.

They are immune to 1 of 3 mechanics of a single defense.

So why should the 2 out of 3 things they are NOT immune to be disabled?

3 Mechanics:
SLOW > IMMUNE

PULL/PUSH  > NOT IMMUNE 

STUN > NOT IMMUNE

Yet they are IMMUNE to ALL of THEM?

Either change the defense altogether or make enemies face their weaknesses.

This is not fun or intuitive design. You say a defense does X, Y and Z, then you say that that defense CANNOT do Y because an enemy is immune to Z.

Doesn't make sense. 

If you want to keep it as is, change the text to... 

"If an enemy is slowed, it will be pulled back in X seconds if in X range, and then stunned for X."

Problem solved.

Players need more transparency in how skills and defenses interact. Simply saying here on the forum it don't work because Z enemy is immune to 1 out of 3 mechanics of a trap does not make players sense.

If we can't trust game mechanics that defenses bring to the table how will players make cool builds?

Edit: Adding to that. Disclose all your ICD's.. 

They are clearly there, but we don't know them or how long their CD is.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...