Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
pApA^LeGBa

update?

Recommended Posts

I think the early endgame starts around 55, when all the lane schedules show up and all the mutators are present. This is totally different than really struggling with onslaught 3, which is clearly not the endgame. 

@pApA^LeGBa quote:


@BeerGoggles quote:

Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. There are infinite onslaught levels. 

We should disregard all your opinions about the endgame because you have no clue


I'll include the other main endgame leaderboard: https://leaderboard.dungeondefenders2.com/ap.html

@pApA^LeGBa quote:

there is 250 levels. and you say 65 starts the endgame? wow. a little math here: 250:65 = 3,85. So Level 65 is just a bit over a quarter of the whole levels. How in the world is this endgame?


level 150 ok. still a bit early but meh, can live with that.


i just saw that. makes it even worse that 65 is already considered endgame.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do you even realize what endgame means? i don´t think so. But meh, we will see what the devs think about this untile then you can be elitist as much as you want. 

the harder the game is the less people will play and pay. simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@pApA^LeGBa quote:

do you even realize what endgame means? i don´t think so. But meh, we will see what the devs think about this untile then you can be elitist as much as you want. 

the harder the game is the less people will play and pay. simple.

After you beat everything else in this game there are only two things left to do. Grind AP to 999 talent cap increase, and push onslaught floors until you get bored of this game. There is no cap on onslaught floors.

The end game of this game is literally grinding floors until you get bored

No one is close to any max theoretical floor you can get to because no one is close to 999 talent cap yet.

How do you get the talent cap increases? You get past floor 65, every floor you go above 65 is 1 more point towards the 999 talent cap.

You could push to 165 and get 100 point increase, or you could go to 66 100 times and get 100 point increase. 

Either way this end game grind starts at 65. 

What else starts at 65? The ancient power reset system. The other half of the talent cap increase needed to complete everything in the game.

So yes. We know what the end game means in this game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol, ok, certainly you'd know better than me.  How many AP resets have you done and whats your highest floor? I'm looking for a coach.

@pApA^LeGBa quote:

do you even realize what endgame means? i don´t think so. But meh, we will see what the devs think about this untile then you can be elitist as much as you want. 

the harder the game is the less people will play and pay. simple.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@BeerGoggles quote:

Man, you got 2 options to progress. Either beat 15 or beat c5. It sounds like you want to play the slow route, but it takes too long. You gotta learn something to progress. Either learn to play faster, or learn to beat c5. I'm not telling you this, the game is.

If you spent all the time you spend complaining on the forums trying to figure out the game, you'd be a lot further ahead. 

@Chappyy quote:

Telling us to go do trials is again ridiculous. Most of us quit the game because we didn't like trials. Onslaught came out and yes contrary to your explanation onslaught is meant to bridge the gap between chaos tiers. it is a slower loot progression that lets you chip away levels and eventually get a better item set that you can then comfortably go into trials. Mostly because of the way loot actually drops. So I came back and tried Onslaught and it is a very nice laid out game and more fun to play right up until I hit 3 maps. 

I don't want to play trials it is a horrible game mode. There is no reason to play it once onslaught came out short of it is a faster path to c7.  And your assumption of how long it should take someone that has never reached AP is way out of reality for the average player. 


It sounds like you don't listen either. It's not about my skill to play but rather the fact that i have real life responsibilities that sometimes wind up getting me disconnected due to afk. And that the fact that end game should never be about the speed at which one completes content because how do you determine what speed to use?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....The devs have already spoken. Read the onslaught release notes:

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/blog/150495/power-of-the-ancients-expansion-notes

"Floor Progression

In each floor of Onslaught, there can be 1-3 maps on each floor.  This will cycle between 1, 2, and 3 until you reach our end-game scaling around Floor 60.

For Example:

  • Floor 1: 1 Map

  • Floor 2: 2 Maps

  • Floor 3: 3 Maps

  • Floor 4: 1 Map

  • Floor 5: 2 Maps

And so on and so forth. In our end-game, every floor will be three maps.

Each floor that you beat will have better and better loot up to our current maximum Chaos VII level."


@pApA^LeGBa quote:

do you even realize what endgame means? i don´t think so. But meh, we will see what the devs think about this untile then you can be elitist as much as you want. 

the harder the game is the less people will play and pay. simple.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually i don´t give a fk. i wanna play onslaught but can´t due to stupid 3 maps in a row, not enough time for one sitting of that, well mostly sometimes i can, not often tough. you can do your "oh i am so uberpro" thing even with saves. just don´t use save and the devs might build in a bonus for people doing 3 maps in a row. or more. dunno. good for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just gonna put some analysis on what map saving's pros and cons are.

Pros : Helps peeps who have RL issues clashing with time needed for the game. Short burst of playing time.

Quoting Krunski

Even good players have limits on the amount of time they can play.  I think I'm about 500 hours on this, and over 2000 hours on the previous DD games, but it's from mostly short gaming sessions. 

Quoting Chappyy

It sounds like you don't listen either. It's not about my skill to play but rather the fact that i have real life responsibilities that sometimes wind up getting me disconnected due to afk. And that the fact that end game should never be about the speed at which one completes content because how do you determine what speed to use?

However.

Cons : Quoting Maverick Hunter.

Just saying.  I'm all for a mid-floor save or 1-map-per-floor. But as an "advanced casual" I see how its going to artificially boost people to higher floors, which will cheapen the achievements of high skill players.  And people will call for nerfs for enemies and mutator combos they don't understand how to counter, when really they shouldn't be on a floor scaled that high.  


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is trolling now...

@Jaws_420 quote:

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Implementing a save mode consists of:

Tracking across game sessions - Number of rerolls used, current map, all lane modifiers and lane schedules

From a high level view a save mode essentially turns onslaught into a 1 map per floor setup, except that each floor would have 3 stages (Foor 65:1, Floor 65:2, Floor 65:3)

This is a complex system that would require a lot of changes to implement. It would make more sense to just implement floors with 1 or 2 maps per floor, much less development work for the same end result.


The real problem here is the question what should the minimum amount of player time commitment be. It takes me about 8-10 minutes to do any non lost temple map and about 15-20 minutes to do lost temple. Lets round all of those up. 

20 minutes per map, 30 minutes for lost temple. With these times it without failure it would take a hour and 10 minutes to beat 1 floor. The argument is thats too much time. 

So what amount of time should a end game play session be? If its 1 map then people can log in for quick 10-20 minute play sessions and knock something out. if its 2 maps we are talking 20-40 min game session.


20-40 minutes sounds like what most games require for any type of game session and a good amount of time to base progress around. Looking at other entertainment options pretty much every other genre of entertainment has this time frame for its core time commitment (a game of madden or nba2k, a game of fortnite, doing a quest in monster hunter, playing a game of settlers of catan, watching a tv show,  going to the gym, fighting at your local fight club)


With this in mind it seems the best balance for end game is based around that half hour of game session, or max of 2 maps in a row.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think after reading my entire post, you of all people would understand the true "con" with being high in the floors without adequate understanding of the game.  

I don't care what floor people get to, until they start calling "nerf this" and "nerf that" and "Remove hard counters!" as if a better understanding of the game wouldn't alleviate most of their issues.  

But trolls are fun even when they are sharks :D

@Jaws_420 quote:

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Nigiri_Toro quote:

This is a complex system that would require a lot of changes to implement. It would make more sense to just implement floors with 1 or 2 maps per floor, much less development work for the same end result.

I agree with this. 


BTW - happy 1000th post!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@uzar quote:

Who is trolling now...

@Jaws_420 quote:

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png


i knew you would be the first one to bite the bait form under the bridge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think c1-c7 is the tutorial mode, that familiarizes you with new mobs and figure out how to build around that. I just see people in town asking for carries. SMH. Guess the endgame for that is complaining on the forums that the game is too hard. But secretly is because they don't understand the game and they  can't get carried anymore.

@MaverickHunter77 quote:

I don't care what floor people get to, until they start calling "nerf this" and "nerf that" and "Remove hard counters!" as if a better understanding of the game wouldn't alleviate most of their issues.  




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@MaverickHunter77 quote:

I think after reading my entire post, you of all people would understand the true "con" with being high in the floors without adequate understanding of the game.  

I don't care what floor people get to, until they start calling "nerf this" and "nerf that" and "Remove hard counters!" as if a better understanding of the game wouldn't alleviate most of their issues.  

But trolls are fun even when they are sharks :D

@Jaws_420 quote:

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png

The true CON is that some people's special thing does not feel as special any more. I mean i get that feeling, as i have many achievements in many of my games I would not want tarnished, but i feel that is a very weak argument to hold this request back. If every single DD2 player got to floor 200, how in any way does that effect the game for anyone other than pride? Does it make your game any harder or easier? You can simply not save, or self-impose any number of restrictions on yourself if you want to accomplish something or make it more challenging, but i fail to see how other people doing well is a slight against anyone else in any way apart from pride. So i don't think it was trolling at all (apart from the off the cuff tone of course). I really do think the only hold up is pride. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Jaws_420 quote:


The true CON is that some people's special thing does not feel as special any more. I mean i get that feeling, as i have many achievements in many of my games I would not want tarnished, but i feel that is a very weak argument to hold this request back. If every single DD2 player got to floor 200, how in any way does that effect the game for anyone other than pride? Does it make your game any harder or easier? You can simply not save, or self-impose any number of restrictions on yourself if you want to accomplish something or make it more challenging, but i fail to see how other people doing well is a slight against anyone else in any way apart from pride. So i don't think it was trolling at all (apart from the off the cuff tone of course). I really do think the only hold up is pride. 

Leaderboards are toxic to games like this that need to constantly be tweaked and balanced. I kinda wish they had seasons on the leaderboard to track onslaught floors because of that. You could implement major changes each season.

But to address your comment: Does it make your game any harder or easier? You can simply not save, or self-impose any number of restrictions on yourself if you want to accomplish something or make it more challenging, 

Yes making the game easier does affect everyone. And the answer should never be ignore how the game is designed and make up your own rules to increase the difficulty for yourself.

Theres a balance that always needs to be maintained but the answer should never be make the game as easy as possible and if you want it harder then just dont use X



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its the game, the save feature is beating a floor if you cant beat a 3 map floor you want it easier to beat the game without understanding how the game works.

They have also stated big changes to Onslaught coming is that including a save feature for mid 3 map floors who knows. They did add the reroll and retry as restarting all 3 was a nightmare. Will they just scrap all that and go 1 floor , who knows.

From the POA notes.

Onslaught will save which floors you were able to beat, you can then immediately play the next floor in your progression.

@Jaws_420 quote:


@MaverickHunter77 quote:

I think after reading my entire post, you of all people would understand the true "con" with being high in the floors without adequate understanding of the game.  

I don't care what floor people get to, until they start calling "nerf this" and "nerf that" and "Remove hard counters!" as if a better understanding of the game wouldn't alleviate most of their issues.  

But trolls are fun even when they are sharks :D

@Jaws_420 quote:

Hmmmmm......i see this:

Pros: makes the game more accessible to a much wider gaming audience and promotes the longevity of the franchise

Cons: fanboy pride gets hurt

Jester_Forum_icon2.png

The true CON is that some people's special thing does not feel as special any more. I mean i get that feeling, as i have many achievements in many of my games I would not want tarnished, but i feel that is a very weak argument to hold this request back. If every single DD2 player got to floor 200, how in any way does that effect the game for anyone other than pride? Does it make your game any harder or easier? You can simply not save, or self-impose any number of restrictions on yourself if you want to accomplish something or make it more challenging, but i fail to see how other people doing well is a slight against anyone else in any way apart from pride. So i don't think it was trolling at all (apart from the off the cuff tone of course). I really do think the only hold up is pride. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@BeerGoggles quote:

I actually think c1-c7 is the tutorial mode, that familiarizes you with new mobs and figure out how to build around that. I just see people in town asking for carries. SMH. Guess the endgame for that is complaining on the forums that the game is too hard. But secretly is because they don't understand the game and they  can't get carried anymore.

@MaverickHunter77 quote:

I don't care what floor people get to, until they start calling "nerf this" and "nerf that" and "Remove hard counters!" as if a better understanding of the game wouldn't alleviate most of their issues.  

I am confused as to why there is such a negative stigma against players who do not understand a game that provides almost no instruction on how to play it. Chaos does not teach you how to play their enemies at all. They simply throw them at you, and if you don't die, then i guess you learned how to play them. I don't remember any pop-ups explaining how to place towers against that unit ever coming up, or a special map that walked me through countering that unit. Same maps you play every enemy with, but now - SURPRISE, a new unit. That is how DD2 "teaches" you. 

So how in any sense is it okay to hold naivety against people when this game completely lacks instruction? I get why everyone would want to be carried. I have been on the forums non-stop since i picked up DD2, and still there is info i discover each day that is new. 

So i disagree that the Trails or Chaos tiers are a tutorial of any kind. The only tutorial this game had was one the first 3 maps and that was how to place a tower at all. Apparently that is the only info you need to play this game. Faulting players due to TE's huge lack of instruction is pretty weak and mean to me. 

That is why i feel it is our job to help those players out. Whenever that be by carrying them, or teaching them here on the forum how to play the game. And for the record, i feel the advice of "gitgud" is the absolutely lowest form of advice anyone can ever give. It's just another way to say "you suck, ha ha ha". I will never support such a stance. I'd rather help people than shut them out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Jaws_420 quote:




 Chaos does not teach you how to play their enemies at all. They simply throw them at you, and if you don't die, then i guess you learned how to play them. I don't remember any pop-ups explaining how to place towers against that unit ever coming up, or a special map that walked me through countering that unit. Same maps you play every enemy with, but now - SURPRISE, a new unit. That is how DD2 "teaches" you. 

There is the whole enemy detail list on each chaos tier that tells you how the new enemy works.

The only strategy at that point is understanding how the hero towers work so you can build a counter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@uzar quote:


From the POA notes.

Onslaught will save which floors you were able to beat, you can then immediately play the next floor in your progression.



It's not the floor save it's the saving of the progression during a 3 map floor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Nigiri_Toro quote:


@Jaws_420 quote:

Chaos does not teach you how to play their enemies at all. They simply throw them at you, and if you don't die, then i guess you learned how to play them. I don't remember any pop-ups explaining how to place towers against that unit ever coming up, or a special map that walked me through countering that unit. Same maps you play every enemy with, but now - SURPRISE, a new unit. That is how DD2 "teaches" you. 

There is the whole enemy detail list on each chaos tier that tells you how the new enemy works.

The only strategy at that point is understanding how the hero towers work so you can build a counter.


^This.  This one "chaos info" page gives you plenty to go forth and trial-and-error learn through it.  (Also, the yeti incursion does have popups that provide info on each frosty each wave. I reran that incursion when I had problems with frosties, learned from it, and now frosties are much more manageable.)

And if that isn't enough for someone, which is completely understandable as it is short descriptions and people have limited time to try and fail, there are other resources.  Juicebags' Youtube channel, for example, has all anyone ever needs in terms of understanding how things work.  Getting wrecked by cyborks? Go check out his "How to beat Chaos 2" video.   A 20 minute investment into your understanding goes a long way.  Its how I got passed C2.  Or go watch his Hero spotlights so you know the tools at your disposal. Watch defense spotlights if you want a number-crunched theory-crafted recommended defense setup.   Didn't know Fissures and weapon man's use no health stat? Now you do. 

Yes it would be nice if we had more in terms of in-game, but every hour spent on in-game documentation and guides and tutorials is another hour not spent on bugs/crashes or features we are hounding Trendy about.  Since there are plenty of resources out there, I'd rather Trendy spend time on features and we ask questions about specific things during Friday Fun Streams or forum posts. The All-Seeing One usually answers or finds the answer for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@MaverickHunter77 quote:

 I'd rather Trendy spend time on features and we ask questions about specific things during Friday Fun Streams or forum posts. The All-Seeing One usually answers or finds the answer for us.

Hmmm.....Discord eh? ;) What's your username? Didn't see you around there.

Anyway, well said there. Though the wiki could be updated for those who need another source of info too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...