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xArcAngel

Multiplayer Scaling Idea (Blame BerryJelly)

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So I know the days of ranting over multiplayer scaling are for the most part done... And I honestly think multiplayer scaling is perfectly fine as is for the vast majority of the game. But seeing the video of BerryJelly's floor 250 onslaught run (gratz btw) had me realize something. Adding 50%+ HP to those absolutely ABSURD HP pools is crazy to even think about lol.

That means that playing multiplayer onslaught at that high of floors (not that it happens for a lot of other reasons atm) is not only practically impossible, it might very well border on the LITERALLY impossible haha.


So I had a random idea come to me... If I'm not mistaken, enemies have their own sort of "iPWR level" right? You use to show the ranges on maps a long time ago. So what if each player added a % of their own iPWR to the mobs when they joined in? (Ideally removing the damage boosts from levels if possible, cause no return of the multiplicative scalers please).

But this would remove a lot of the common complaints about C1 players leaching C7 and making the game harder, since their low iPWR basically wouldn't affect the match, while also dealing with a potential issue with runaway scaling in onslaught. Just an idea.

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I never liked how much multiplayer hp scales. I love playing with others more rather than solo! However, pushing onslaught or doing resets and being in a situation where the gear is underlevelled, it becomes a really difficult decision to start a public game because it reduces the chances of success and I don't want to build a floor to see people fail, even when I know it's been built right. That being said, I still open my floors 55-65 to the public once I get a 20k medallion. 

On countless instances have I seen zerks slip right through the defences with only a fraction of their hp left, brought about by the 3rd/4th player that just joined.

Not all the time can we find 4 players to match with and not all the time are there enough players to cover all lanes. This game is anti-multiplayer.

Rather than increasing the hp pool for multiplayer, maybe the idea that I've seen floating around the forums of increasing the number of bosses could be implemented. There are many other great ideas out there too. Even if all thing s were equal, would an easier multiplayer really be that bad a thing? One thing that is for certain is that we need more multiplayer incentive! More drops and exp for working together to complete a tougher challenge!

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"More drops and exp for working together to complete a tougher challenge!" BerryJelly

Exactly. Better gear needs to better progressive, as well, and not random.

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@xArcAngel quote:

But this would remove a lot of the common complaints about C1 players leaching C7 and making the game harder, since their low iPWR basically wouldn't affect the match, while also dealing with a potential issue with runaway scaling in onslaught. Just an idea.

Lower geared players leeching has effectively been removed from the game as you need a certain gear score to even join in a tier of Trials and with the current system of Onslaught you cant join a floor without having completed the previous floor. This doesn't stop the true leeching of players that are properly geared and just don't want to help so they get all the benefit for no work but that eludes to party control options.

I do agree with the concept of this idea since increasing enemy hp is a rough way to do scaling for more players since the hp scale on lanes you cant watch with multiple players means you have to overbuild those lanes and underbuild the ones you can guard. There has to be another way to do something for having more players without tapping into extra bonuses for forming parties which leave players who don't socialize in the dirt.

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Personally I believe something has to happen against the multiplayer HP scaling of non-bosses, it was NERFED to 20% per player a long time ago but I believe this is still too much.


Why are we punishing players for playing in a group with other people in the first place ?

Wouldn't you prefer seeing a team of coordinated players ruling the leaderboards instead of single individuals just because group play is too punishing ?


PS: Last years thread: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/143546/multiplayer-scaling

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@Tigrosaur quote:

Personally I believe something has to happen against the multiplayer HP scaling of non-bosses, it was NERFED to 20% per player a long time ago but I believe this is still too much.


Why are we punishing players for playing in a group with other people in the first place ?

Wouldn't you prefer seeing a team of coordinated players ruling the leaderboards instead of single individuals just because group play is too punishing ?


PS: Last years thread: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/143546/multiplayer-scaling

Because it's not punishing, you have extra players now joining you in the fight. Scaling enemies HP isn't to punish players, it's to provide balance to the game otherwise you'll have people complaining there is no challenge to the game because 4 player parties beat everything.

You also got players who like to solo the game.

Another thing you got to realize is that it's not the scaling what makes it's unfair to other players. It's the people you play with. Stat's can be +5% or minus -20% if you got people who can't play the game right or have poor play quality you ain't going to do so well.

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My perspective is the end game, pushing onslaught floors as high as possible.

If you have 12-14 lanes in TLT every floor, the HP scaling from the extra players is too punishing.


@Chaos_Martin quote:

you'll have people complaining there is no challenge to the game because 4 player parties beat everything.

I believe the opposite is true here with people complaining that solo/duo players have a much easier time.

Just imagine a group of 4 players doing floor 250, if we're comparing that to solo onslaught that means we're dealing with enemies as tough as floor 400.


Maybe the scaling isn't the problem here but actually the fact that we're using the same onslaught leaderboard for both solo and 4 player teams.

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Adding players does not add more Defenses.  Adding players only adds hero damage.  Hero damage is significant, yes; but are the 2 balanced?  


Increase in difficulty based on % Gear Score (once the amount of % is balanced) would properly scale Multi-Player Participation with Selected Difficulty.


However, I do not feel that difficulty scaling is enough.  That would only limit the dis-incentive for multiplayer.  I feel that there should be some sort of gameplay incentive for playing with others that does not punish the solo player.

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@Tarius quote:

Adding players does not add more Defenses.  Adding players only adds hero damage.  Hero damage is significant, yes; but are the 2 balanced? 

Four heroes on deck, can move around the map, have varying damage styles and types, varying utility, unique counters to enemies, and some have very high spike damage.

vs

(Once placed) Can be multiple depending on amounts allocated to lane, static range, only deal the damage type that was placed, only have the utility that was placed, only counters enemies it counters, has a set damage amount based on the def placed.

I would say the favor is in the heroes myself, they are basically the same but with flexibility based on the player's willingness to utilize the extra slots and move rather than sit on one hero. Duo play is obvious at an advantage because it adds the least amount while adding an extra player but with a good team 4 players are more than able to compensate for the extra hp enemies get. I do remember that there was such a team climbing floors in Discord claiming how much easier it was to clear floors even though they had 4 people and where at 150ish+.

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Seems like your underestimating how strong a hero can be. They have so much more power then a tower can have.


To simply put this and why we have this scaling.


An LV1 player bs an LV1 Mob.  They fight and the LV1 player wins. 

Now there is 4 LV1 players vs the LV1 mob. The LV1 Mob get's killed before it can do anything. People complain there is no challenge and is too easy.


So now because there are 4 players the Mob's LV is now 5 but can still be beaten by the players.

Stats wise isn't the main game changer of a match, it's how you and your party play with of course setting up defence's correctly.

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I was lazy with this post, since it was mostly throwing off a rough idea for conversation sake... But let me restate a VERY important part of the original question, that seems to have kinda fallen off.

This was referring to late game onslaught only.

Outside of late game onslaught, the power dynamic for multiplayer is 100% in the favor of the player if everyone is actually being active. But MP scaling is based on how strong the mobs are, not how strong the player being added is. In onslaught, you can theoretically reach a point where the mobs are so much stronger than the player that the MP scaling adds more threat than that player provides support.

Is it worth worrying about? Probably not. Its a niche situation, and one that basically doesn't exist because of other flaws in the AP system and onslaught. But all systems can be improved, even when they're perfectly functional, so it was just an idea for a conversation.

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The extra health pool with extra players was always a blunt tool, and it has massively put people off playing as groups.

In DD1 you knew you needed 4 good players for end game content, you would wait to get them in game before starting. However synergy in DD1 was much better implemented, genies for upgrading, cats for higher damage with seahorses, megachickens etc. You could mix and match heores too, monk to boost barb to hawk strike, jester to heal everything with Wheel of Fortune.

DD2 is massively dumbed down as far as hero synergy, and has a long way to go. Perhaps when Dryad doesn't own and you do need some synergy, multiplayer may happen more.

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