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ArchaicLotus

Chaos 8+ anyone?

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but what i mean is that - i am a collector. I like picking up drops. I love when a game has huge loads of things to collect or work towards. DD1 and 2 have been quit excellent for this and part of why i just love this franchise. For me, any game where the stuff that drops ceases to be fun or relevant causes my enjoyment level, and therefore my interest level, to drop dramatically. 

Couldn't agree more. I don't want a Chaos 8 Trials, I don't think its necessary. I DO want gear to be uncapped, and I think the Onslaught floor system is the perfect vehicle for it. You can do it, even combined with AP, its just algorithms ultimately. The gear would increase at a much slower rate I think (so if you go from basic gear to max c7 gear in 55 floors, or C1-C7), so therefore from (say) 65 to 130 maybe is the entire width for "C8 gear", 130-260 for "C9 gear", and so on, indefinitely. A slow but definite improvement in drops on high onlslaught floors. Doing it with gear upgrades only should be very hard, with resetting making that little bit easier, but either way its endless, both in floors possible and gear-level.

That way there is always better gear to collect, and for me, that makes the game endlessly playable.

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@bfgeleven quote:

but what i mean is that - i am a collector. I like picking up drops. I love when a game has huge loads of things to collect or work towards. DD1 and 2 have been quit excellent for this and part of why i just love this franchise. For me, any game where the stuff that drops ceases to be fun or relevant causes my enjoyment level, and therefore my interest level, to drop dramatically. 

Couldn't agree more. I don't want a Chaos 8 Trials, I don't think its necessary. I DO want gear to be uncapped, and I think the Onslaught floor system is the perfect vehicle for it. You can do it, even combined with AP, its just algorithms ultimately. The gear would increase at a much slower rate I think (so if you go from basic gear to max c7 gear in 55 floors, or C1-C7), so therefore from (say) 65 to 130 maybe is the entire width for "C8 gear", 130-260 for "C9 gear", and so on, indefinitely. A slow but definite improvement in drops on high onlslaught floors. Doing it with gear upgrades only should be very hard, with resetting making that little bit easier, but either way its endless, both in floors possible and gear-level.

That way there is always better gear to collect, and for me, that makes the game endlessly playable.

I have to disagree with that.

Main reason on why I don't want endless gear progression because it's gonna making future challenges redundant.

Suppose I've got floor 3500 gear and a new incursion or gamemode comes out. Now I think there's going to be a huge difficulty gap. Am I suppose to just cheese through those? That's not fun.

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:


@bfgeleven quote:

but what i mean is that - i am a collector. I like picking up drops. I love when a game has huge loads of things to collect or work towards. DD1 and 2 have been quit excellent for this and part of why i just love this franchise. For me, any game where the stuff that drops ceases to be fun or relevant causes my enjoyment level, and therefore my interest level, to drop dramatically. 

Couldn't agree more. I don't want a Chaos 8 Trials, I don't think its necessary. I DO want gear to be uncapped, and I think the Onslaught floor system is the perfect vehicle for it. You can do it, even combined with AP, its just algorithms ultimately. The gear would increase at a much slower rate I think (so if you go from basic gear to max c7 gear in 55 floors, or C1-C7), so therefore from (say) 65 to 130 maybe is the entire width for "C8 gear", 130-260 for "C9 gear", and so on, indefinitely. A slow but definite improvement in drops on high onlslaught floors. Doing it with gear upgrades only should be very hard, with resetting making that little bit easier, but either way its endless, both in floors possible and gear-level.

That way there is always better gear to collect, and for me, that makes the game endlessly playable.

I have to disagree with that.

Main reason on why I don't want endless gear progression because it's gonna making future challenges redundant.

Suppose I've got floor 3500 gear and a new incursion or gamemode comes out. Now I think there's going to be a huge difficulty gap. Am I suppose to just cheese through those? That's not fun.

My thought was not a system that endlessly progressed strength. That would make for a OP situation, although i do still feel all gear should still strengthen if enemy strength and HP are, even if at a lesser scale. A certain ratio from enemy to hero should be maintained, although the gap would widen as you go "up difficulty levels", even though there are not any more to go up - just floors.  

What i am looking for is some way to evolve the gear. Maybe you can boost the supporting stats on it, or add an elemental resistance to it. Minuscule steps at a time if need be. Each extra piece of gear could be +1 to a stat, so you would need hundreds if not thousands to make an actual dent in the number - but at least then the gear is doing SOMETHING. 

Just something to make all drops relevant. While i used to love drops - now i am starting to hate them. Almost all of it is useless garbage to me at this point, and the gold i get is so small it is hardly worth the effort of keeping and selling it. I am a collector, and this game hits a massive plateau in that area on the end game. 

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What's left to do if not chase better gear? My relics are 22,900+, my weapons are 11,400+, I have excess of the best shards. Everybody is going to get here at one point. Back to the beginning point. More options for grinders and casual gamers. Not just end-game, not just beginning; both.

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@Jaws_420 quote:

My thought was not a system that endlessly progressed strength. That would make for a OP situation, although i do still feel all gear should still strengthen if enemy strength and HP are, even if at a lesser scale. A certain ratio from enemy to hero should be maintained, although the gap would widen as you go "up difficulty levels", even though there are not any more to go up - just floors.  

What i am looking for is some way to evolve the gear. Maybe you can boost the supporting stats on it, or add an elemental resistance to it. Minuscule steps at a time if need be. Each extra piece of gear could be +1 to a stat, so you would need hundreds if not thousands to make an actual dent in the number - but at least then the gear is doing SOMETHING. 

Just something to make all drops relevant. While i used to love drops - now i am starting to hate them. Almost all of it is useless garbage to me at this point, and the gold i get is so small it is hardly worth the effort of keeping and selling it. I am a collector, and this game hits a massive plateau in that area on the end game. 

The first part already has functionality in the game, as you progress through floors you will hit a point where enemies have enough to make you want more power thus you reset get increased talent caps and Ancient Powers then you go back up to where you were. That kind of ties in with the second part as well since the increased talent caps give you the small increase of stats you are talking about. 

As far as making drops relevant, I don't think ever increasing numbers are the way to go. That will lead to the same problem no matter how steep you make the scaling, eventually your numbers are too big and any future content is childs play, thus boring and will eventually make you quit. 

A slightly better option is to have higher floors give better and better chances at getting maxed out drops so the higher you are the less your drops are subject to the deviation but still keep some deviation to make farming still a thing.

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@Exglint quote:

A slightly better option is to have higher floors give better and better chances at getting maxed out drops so the higher you are the less your drops are subject to the deviation but still keep some deviation to make farming still a thing.

I like that idea. That is very similar to how i have purported we change the def packs. I am okay with less drops, if they are more meaningful with less junk and dupes. If the few drops give the same crud they always do, then they need to rain from the sky to ease the pain of the repetition. It's not the frequency of the drops that is an issue - it is the content. 

Hence my post - at the end of C7, which is where i am at right now, the whole drop system has completely stalled out. Basically you just farm significant shards and legendaries - both with slim drop rates. The pages and pages of junk you incur in doing so are mind melting for me, but i don't think it has to be that way.  DD1 showed that it didn't. I am just trying to figure out how to make pages and pages of pet eggs, low grade gear, pet supplies, etc. be anything more than junk mail you get and instantly throw away. Can it be more? 


@Exglint quote:

The first part already has functionality in the game, as you progress through floors you will hit a point where enemies have enough to make you want more power thus you reset get increased talent caps and Ancient Powers then you go back up to where you were. That kind of ties in with the second part as well since the increased talent caps give you the small increase of stats you are talking about. 

I don't think the exchange for what you get creates a balance, and i think that is one of the reasons why so many of us want nothing to do with the AP system and cry for changes to it. I find it hard to believe that a 1% bonus really makes that much difference in your ability to take on more floors than you could before. Even with multiple rests, getting to say 10% bonus - not exactly earth shattering stat tipping. Single shards improve stats by 40% - now that is a bump. 

This is what i am getting at - the rate at which enemy power goes up is not balanced to what you are given to combat that, and the fact that it is the AP system that gives you any more help and not gear - further erodes the plateau of the gear stall. I know this makes some of you happy as all you want is a challenge, but what i want is something to collect, and the post game has very very little to collect, and the appeal of an endless reset cycle loop for marginal reward holds little value to me.  

One of the very things that made me want to play DD1 and DD2 does not feel like it even exists in the DD2 post game. I just want to stir the pot of creativity to see how we can find a way to keep this kind of gamer (i know i am not the only one) playing DD2 on and on. 


But hey, there are all kinds of gamers. I am appealing to the collectors, which many of you may not be, so it is unlikely we both share the same end game frustrations. These are just mine. 

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Don't get me wrong I also would like to see AP/Onslaught get a change but I just wanted to point out that the increase talent caps does give quite a bit of stats. Currently with a 22.9k totem and full asc a spiked blockade has approx. 27k def hp but with full 999 caps and the same totem you have approx. 52k def hp. Thats a huge gain already but the gear is the same which I understand is where we are looking atm.

Maybe once they get AP/Onslaught right where everyone is happy we can go into making super unique and farm worthy gear, possibly through something like DD1's challenges like Assault and Warping Core, and with stat deviation it will create something fun and worth the time to get without making stats go up.

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@Exglint quote:

Currently with a 22.9k totem and full asc a spiked blockade has approx. 27k def hp but with full 999 caps and the same totem you have approx. 52k def hp. Thats a huge gain already but the gear is the same which I understand is where we are looking atm.

By 999 caps, do you mean resetting through AP a thousand times??? Otherwise i am not sure what you mean, so please explain. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@Exglint quote:

Currently with a 22.9k totem and full asc a spiked blockade has approx. 27k def hp but with full 999 caps and the same totem you have approx. 52k def hp. Thats a huge gain already but the gear is the same which I understand is where we are looking atm.

By 999 caps, do you mean resetting through AP a thousand times??? Otherwise i am not sure what you mean, so please explain. 

Each time you reset you get +1 to talent caps on the ascension tree for the nodes that have 140 currently for every 50 asc you have on reset and each floor you complete above floor 65 each reset. This can be done in 1 reset (not likely because the amount of work would be staggering) or 50 resets or 200 resets, that part is more up to how much work you put in.

I have a spreadsheet floating around full of Onslaught information and one tab near the back has a basic formula of how to get full talent caps in 50 resets which would also get you full Ancient Powers at the same time. That means if you follow it after 50 resets you are done with resetting if you don't want more xp or gold bonuses.

Each talent point is worth 15, 20 or 30 stat points depending on what it is and what defense it is for and stacks up quickly. Of course with our current reset system this means you likely won't get to use this increase until you are either nearly done or done resetting. (Something I hope changes because these talent points are powerful)

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I have to disagree with that.

Main reason on why I don't want endless gear progression because it's gonna making future challenges redundant.

Suppose I've got floor 3500 gear and a new incursion or gamemode comes out. Now I think there's going to be a huge difficulty gap. Am I suppose to just cheese through those? That's not fun.

Its a fair point, but I still maintain gear needs to get better. I agree that with a potentially much wider gap in gear between the bottom and the top players, any new game modes would have to manage to cater for a wider spectrum. Mastery manages it with caps, I am sure there are other methods.

I also accept that overall stats can improve well beyond the basic 22,900+ using AP via resetting. However, the point that system misses is that players want better gear just for the sake of better gear. Its a huge draw, collecting is a big thing, and capping it out, for many players like me, puts a very hard ceiling on the games playability.

I do think the algorithms of making higher onslaught floors drop better than C7 gear need careful thought, and the drops should be scarce and the growth very slow. But, that, added to a new "free choice" mode, where players can simply choose any map, and difficulty level, and just go, would give the game a much longer life. If and how the "free choice" mode dropped gear I don't know, I think you have to tackle and bear the challenge of random maps in Onslaught/Chaos to progress. Maybe the free choice mode is set to drop slightly lower gear, depending on the difficulty level, to stop players using that mode to progress. Maybe it doesn't drop gear at all, which for me kind of defeats the object, but its a mode players really want so they need to figure it out.

Lastly, add a NMHC mode, but again there has to be a point to it, a reward.

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@Jaws_420 quote:

My thought was not a system that endlessly progressed strength. That would make for a OP situation, although i do still feel all gear should still strengthen if enemy strength and HP are, even if at a lesser scale. A certain ratio from enemy to hero should be maintained, although the gap would widen as you go "up difficulty levels", even though there are not any more to go up - just floors.  

What i am looking for is some way to evolve the gear. Maybe you can boost the supporting stats on it, or add an elemental resistance to it. Minuscule steps at a time if need be. Each extra piece of gear could be +1 to a stat, so you would need hundreds if not thousands to make an actual dent in the number - but at least then the gear is doing SOMETHING. 

Just something to make all drops relevant. While i used to love drops - now i am starting to hate them. Almost all of it is useless garbage to me at this point, and the gold i get is so small it is hardly worth the effort of keeping and selling it. I am a collector, and this game hits a massive plateau in that area on the end game. 

Exactly. An OP situation wouldn't be nice. Because if we keep going up, eventually we're gonna get bored of Onslaught floors and when new gamemodes comes out, things might get complicated.

Your idea of gear evolvements sounds good! I've been trying to think on how elemental stuffs could be incorporated with gear/armor.

While I don't want endless gear progression, I agree that now gear is quite bland. Something interesting must be done to gear but, still, have to be done carefully as to not end up in the OP situation.

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@Exglint quote:

Maybe once they get AP/Onslaught right where everyone is happy we can go into making super unique and farm worthy gear, possibly through something like DD1's challenges like Assault and Warping Core, and with stat deviation it will create something fun and worth the time to get without making stats go up.

:o that would definitely be interesting....

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

While I don't want endless gear progression, I agree that now gear is quite bland. Something interesting must be done to gear but, still, have to be done carefully as to not end up in the OP situation.

It doesn't help fix the issue that you mentioned, with introducing new content at appropriate levels.... But as far as maybe avoiding the OP situation, while still giving gear a good way to scale is to do regressive uncapped gear. 

i.e. Gear continues to go up past C7 in onslaught, but no where near the rate enemies go up. This way you will eventually 100% be out scaled, but still gives us a reason to swap gear every now and again. Not too fond of that idea myself... but its just a thought.

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Chaos 8 for me doesn't make sense. With a tweak higher gear can be generated within the current 7 tiers and Onslaught. We asked for challenges and got Mastery, which missed the mark for me. I feel Trendy should rework Trials and Onslaught as the core gameplay.

Trials with access to the whole map pool per tier, we asked for this for forever, why deny us the ability to play the map we want, more choice equals more players.

I would change onslaught to use the whole map pool, including the Incursions and have Temple every 10th floor but no 3 map floors, 2 maps maximum. And throw in Betsy every 15th floor make it something to achieve.

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Just something to make all drops relevant. While i used to love drops - now i am starting to hate them. Almost all of it is useless garbage to me at this point, and the gold i get is so small it is hardly worth the effort of keeping and selling it. I am a collector, and this game hits a massive plateau in that area on the end game. 

This is exactly my point. Drops are almost all garbage, but drops (or more specifically the anticipation and possibility of a GREAT drop) is such a big attraction for me, that once its gone, which it now has, the game is less attractive.


I accept there are many ways to do it, and it has to be considered alongside everything else in the game currently, and other potential new modes too, but something has to be added to make gear "improvable" again, and therefore something to go after and collect.

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