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Succ the Fabled

My thought on how 'new player friendly' the end-game is

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Ok, so this ties a lot with ennemy scaling, hero scaling, and pretty much a lot of things related to the pain points some people have end-game wise.

Listen, I honestly don't know what's Trendy's view on this, but i'm kind of a kirbyism kind of guy, making a game open for everyone, even for people who never grabbed a gamepad.

And in my opinion, DD2 isn't that much that (at least end-game wise). There's a strong meta that not everyone will know about, mostly if they try to play their favorite heroes or random heroes, which is also tied to the way ennemies hard-counter in Trials and Onslaught, which is also tied to how things in DD2 are. From all the thread i've seen, and made. I've started thinking longer and harder about this, because I love the game, I love the community, and I just want to see it grow and get better. And in the end, from what I've gathered, a lot of ideas seem like they would fix many of the ongoing issues.

Issue 1. Gating

So, with Onslaught and Trials coming out, the game has become more and more restricted in gating and such. And this is a major issue, why? Well, you may think that: 'Well, yeah, there's gating, but at least it blocks C1 players from getting in my lobby, I don't want to carry them!', and to this I say: Host-only tools, such as kicking players. A thing as simple as this would basically make all the current gating kind of pointless, like. REALLY, POINTLESS. Gear score restriction is still fine, but how you cannot join back in a friendly game of Trials/Onslaught after wave 1 or so is disappointing, mostly when you consider some crash issues people are having sometimes. Remove that, allow players to join back in. Please. And add host tools to fix some recurring issues too, like people idling in your sessions, C1 players... etc. While we're at it, add an option to join back into the session you were in, in case you crash. This would help out a lot and allow players (like me!) to be less frustrated when the game crashes on them or does any funny gimmick.

Issue 2. The after-Trials update gamemodes

Ok, hear me out, the gamemodes are alright, the idea is great, but the execution could be better. One of the major issues in these gamemodes is the ennemies themselves (and for Onslaught, the RNG). Ennemies are too overpowered (except the pre-trials ennemies, these guys are fine). And the hard-counters on them is too... unforgiving. Like I saw a lot of people say, replace these hard-counters with softer-counters. This would make a lot of things easier, and please. Give the same health to Frosties as their normal variants, their debuffs are already powerful enough. And make Berserks Orcs actual berserks, lower HP, hit hard and goes fast. As for Onslaught, the only thing I'd say is to fix some 'painful' combos. Such as Bullet Sponge air lanes, or Control Burn air lanes. Or Control Burn Cybork Frosties lanes. (Explosive Poison is still broken, wouldn't really be too much of an issue if it worked) and please, let Frosty towers work on control burn ennemies, give it a use against them! apprentice_small.png

So, as you can see from what I've said, these are actually mostly ennemies related issues, and you may ask me: 'Wait, how is this supposed to make the game more open to players?'. Well, first of all, these would give a lot more room for error to new players, allowing them to learn more in a more forgiving manner. This would also make Trials-ennemies related gamemodes (basically all of them except campaign) much more fun and satisfying, than simply frustrating for newcomers. (and up). As for the gating issues, it would allow new players and less new players to play more without having that many issues, and also allow players to not quit the game after x thing happens that screws up their session. And as for the 'characters', well, a lot of towers would be more usable, even if they're soft countered! (still do buff a lot of heroes, pls)

This is your wizardster, out! 

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So you want to make the game easy?

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The point made is in the title; End Game. In order to get a good grip on Onslaught you have to have handled most to all of Mastery, which the point of Mastery is in its name, Mastery. Getting Mastery shards is a trying task. You need most of the higher shards to help in tackling Onslaught.

Onslaught is "End Game" material, not internmediate or beginning. Overcoming mutators is a process that needs to be learned, not a process that needs dumbed down. Onslaught needs to be challenging, it is an End Game mode (notice how I keep stressing that).

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Ok but on a serious note, Yes. We need Host options/tools. As for Gating, doesn't gear drop according to gear dropped from matches now? Wouldn't that mean a c1 player could just go to c7 and get c7 gear? Also, we do need to be able to join back into matches in Trials or Onslaught, I've personally experienced many map 3 disconnects and it's incredibly frustrating. 

Enemies might be a bit too overpowered, I guess. Frosty health could do with a lil nerf, and Berserkers definitely need a health nerf. You can't really just have an enemy that has no weaknesses. Make them actual berserkers like what was said: low health, high damage and fast speed. Fix Explosive Poison please as well. 


Onslaught and Trials would definitely be a lot less frustrating with some of these changes.

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@Succ the Fabled quote:

the hard-counters on them is too... unforgiving. Like I saw a lot of people say, replace these hard-counters with softer-counters. This would make a lot of things easier, and please.

This is a common misconception. When we mean "soft-counter", we don't mean the MOB is soft, like a marshmallow you poke with a stick and it falls over. We mean like Lady Orc, who dictates what doesn't affect HER, rather than removing half the defenses use from a whole lane, but is still so strong and terrifying, that we STILL adjust for her.


As far as how beginner friendly DD2 is? Not at all really. But not because its "too hard" or "unforgiving" I feel. The information flow is just frankly bad imo. I mean, look at the back and forth some of us have had about whether or not lady orcs are suppose to be immune to slows? And short of digging through the forums and dev VODs about it, there is no where to really look it up.

Funniest part though, it's still better than DD1 in that regard lol. But I guess there are a lot of us that are just masochistic geeks that have fun picking apart information from the game to not care too much.

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@ArchaicLotus quote:

The point made is in the title; End Game. In order to get a good grip on Onslaught you have to have handled most to all of Mastery, which the point of Mastery is in its name, Mastery. Getting Mastery shards is a trying task. You need most of the higher shards to help in tackling Onslaught.

Onslaught is "End Game" material, not internmediate or beginning. Overcoming mutators is a process that needs to be learned, not a process that needs dumbed down. Onslaught needs to be challenging, it is an End Game mode (notice how I keep stressing that).

I think your mastery vs onslaught description needs revised some. Hear me out. 

To be fair, you cannot really go anywhere near Mastery until you have grinded a huge amount of shards, and then grinded again...and again....etc, from c1-c7. Onslaught does not really require any mastery level skills until you get from 55 to 65, and onto 114. So from onslaught start until then - mastery is too soon IMO. From that, past the C7 range and on, i think then you are spot on. 

I think DD2 kind of breaks down as:

Campaign = beginner

C1-C7 (either mode)  = intermediate

Onslaught > floor 65 = Advanced


So to the general argument going on here, its the Intermediate part of the game that casual gamers are having less time and fun with it I think. Leave the advanced part as hard as y'all want it. I would not expect casual gamers to tread there. Campaign is fine as it is. DD2 just needs some more friendly ways to be played in that intermediate zone to make a bunch of people enjoy this game more - looking at you onslaught for saves after every map. In that sense, i think this thread addresses some great points that could really help with it.

 If onslaught shouldn't be changed, then maybe we need a new game mode apart from it so that both sides get what they want. Add free play, with schedule type selection options, and a endless Nightmare mode. Be tons of fun, give you options to play the game, and then you can make onslaught as Mastery hard and 'end game mode' as advanced players want it to be. 

Course then there is the whole AP reset loop cycle issue. That does not fit into this idea well, but that system needs some...more thought too... One step at a time i guess. LOL

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I don't agree, Jaws.  Because then beginners would plod through the intermediate-now-easy-mode and then whine about advanced stages being too hard.  

We could dumb that down too, but then the entire game would be easy.

Leave it as it is.  Bad players need to learn to git gud somewhere, and I think the game's learning curve is mostly fine; you encounter new stuff, it bashes you over the head until you use said head to figure out how to deal with it, and move on.

And OP, why is it you think that END Game has to be new-player-friendly?  If you're in END Game, you're by definition not new.  That's like complaining that skipping straight to the hardest difficulty of a fighting game makes your opponent too hard.

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@darksteelhyren quote:

And OP, why is it you think that END Game has to be new-player-friendly?  If you're in END Game, you're by definition not new.  That's like complaining that skipping straight to the hardest difficulty of a fighting game makes your opponent too hard.

That's not the point. The game can totally get difficult, but at the current state, the game is literred with bugs and ennemies that make the end-game a lot harder for people out of campaign trying to progress through the Chaos Trials and Onslaught. I'm not asking to make the end-game bull*** easy, I'm asking for it to be more open for everyone. I've seen many other games with end-games that are way more accessible than DD2's, and I just want to see DD2 be like this more. Maybe that would invite more players to actually play the end-game instead of skipping it with carries and such.

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Honestly I stopped reading at the word gating. So I admit that everything I am about to say might not even apply to the OP.

 I am all for the gating no one should be able to load into the game for the first time and go right into a friends game and be max level and gear with in an hour of playing. That was the one thing that drove me nuts about DD1.  People don't want to play games anymore, they want to be carried to end game. I don't understand the point of that. So then they say I want to play with my friends. Well ok you can still play with your friends, gating doesn't work backwards, you can go down to their level and the end result will be the same. You will slaughter everything and they will be AFK. 

We don't need more people racing to endgame so they can complain about no content at endgame.

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