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ArchaicLotus

Why do players bring up nerfs?

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I have a sincere question.  What is the purpose in bringing up nerfing anything?  This hit me because the last post, about nerfing the dryad/vicious strikes shard, was so popular.  I started thinking about the whole dynamics of it and asked myself, 'Why does anyone care what anyone uses as long as they are not using exploits?'

Let's not focus on the last topic, just the idea of proposing a nerf.  It sincerely sounds like hate-speech.  If we did a true user poll I wonder what the stats would look like.  If a nerf on anything happens, it happens.  I've already practiced and adjusted for a possible Dryad nerf, which I would vote against, but nonetheless.  Why do players care about how other players play, as long as they are not TECHNICALLY cheating.  Why do other players care?  I focus on my own climb and am trying to set the highest-floor-attained-without-a-prestige so that others will not legitimately be able to throw in my face as they have, "that's easy to do." Yes people, two people have done this without even knowing what the 140s+ are like.  That is called hating.  I had to moderate the speech in forums of a popular shooter game when the assault rifle class was nerfed.  You could tell the discouragers from the encouragers; the people who are more concerned about comparing themselves to others and falling short, thus spreading discouragement.

Developers, I do hope that if any nerfs do come that we can discuss it with you as a whole community, as opposed to just a few, because there are a few people that I do not trust that you may be listening to.  And I do not trust them for valid reasons.

Again, question; why do players get so concerned over what a "meta" is doing if it is not an exploit.  Not just the Dryad, but the Huntress Blaze Balloon, Abyss Lord Ramster, EV2 Weapons Manufacture, etc.  Why do people care so much about how people choose to build whether in group or solo?  This is really a mystery to me.

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Really Lotus, I personally dont care about the mini game you created for yourself to push as far as you can without prestiging. Its kinda cool that you are brute forcing it (less so imo after replay was added tbh), but its not something that anything should be balanced around especially when its very likely they intended for you to have some prestige at that point. On the same note not sure whos attacking you for it but thats stupid. Play the game however you want, doesnt make anyone better then you or you better than anyone else.


Now that I got that out of the way. 

This is a game that has to continue to balance difficulty with each new content that comes out. It has been this way and it will continue to go that way. Difficulty has to be looked at from multiple angles. Character strength, enemy difficulty, hard counter balancing.

Historically this game has nerfed into the ground overplayed metas. This was discussed in the previous thread. Its easier to bring one tower into the dps range of  every other then to go through and bring everything up to that towers level and potentially adjust the enemy difficulty as well.

This game doesnt live in a freeze frame, its ever changing and growing. 

Many players (myself included) think the current combo of hard counters are actually taking away from this game and limiting builds and limiting options takes away from the game. Changing this would be an example of nerfing enemy mobs not player characters. I dont think they need to be removed but maybe tweaked.

It comes down to what you want from the game probably. I want a balanced character pool that each has their strength and weaknesses, nothing standing out too far ahead to the point of overshadowing the others.  

Honest question... If dryad were removed from the game tomorrow do you think it would in any way increase the current difficulty level of the game? 

If you dont then I can see where you would think everything is fine as is. 

If you do then the follow up question is, is that a problem with the dryad or the game content? Either way you have identified something that needs to be balanced - nerf the content or the character, it sounds like you just dont want it on the player side. 

With the other option of just buffing all the other characters. they have tried character review passes multiple times in the past, its not easy and it takes a long time. TIdeally they would do this with each new content type that comes out but trendy is a small dev studio and that time can be better used to create new content, new characters etc... It seems like they typically chose the easier path of bringing the outlier back down closer to the pack.

I see new players asking what character they should get first in that big dd2 group chat on ps4 all the time, they are always told to get the dryad because its a one stop shop that will make the game easier, this is a red flag when you look at how trendy has handled over-played metas in the past.

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Hey Toro, thank you for taking the time for such a thorough answer. You are right, I don't want a player-side nerf. Regardless of how it's approached I'm sure I'll still be enjoying the game. I'm not going to be able to make the time to prestige, so I want to see how high I can get with my base set up for now.

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@ArchaicLotus quote:

I have a sincere question.  What is the purpose in bringing up nerfing anything?  This hit me because the last post, about nerfing the dryad/vicious strikes shard, was so popular.  I started thinking about the whole dynamics of it and asked myself, 'Why does anyone care what anyone uses as long as they are not using exploits?'

Let's not focus on the last topic, just the idea of proposing a nerf.  It sincerely sounds like hate-speech.  If we did a true user poll I wonder what the stats would look like.  If a nerf on anything happens, it happens.  I've already practiced and adjusted for a possible Dryad nerf, which I would vote against, but nonetheless.  Why do players care about how other players play, as long as they are not TECHNICALLY cheating.  Why do other players care?  I focus on my own climb and am trying to set the highest-floor-attained-without-a-prestige so that others will not legitimately be able to throw in my face as they have, "that's easy to do." Yes people, two people have done this without even knowing what the 140s+ are like.  That is called hating.  I had to moderate the speech in forums of a popular shooter game when the assault rifle class was nerfed.  You could tell the discouragers from the encouragers; the people who are more concerned about comparing themselves to others and falling short, thus spreading discouragement.

Developers, I do hope that if any nerfs do come that we can discuss it with you as a whole community, as opposed to just a few, because there are a few people that I do not trust that you may be listening to.  And I do not trust them for valid reasons.

Again, question; why do players get so concerned over what a "meta" is doing if it is not an exploit.  Not just the Dryad, but the Huntress Blaze Balloon, Abyss Lord Ramster, EV2 Weapons Manufacture, etc.  Why do people care so much about how people choose to build whether in group or solo?  This is really a mystery to me.

Because we are self entitled whiny little hobbits.

Some nerfs are well deserved, others might be farfetched. Same as buffs. There will always be different opinions of how the game should be, because everyone experiences differently and sees it through their eyes.

I bet you if you ask everyone who play the game, everyone will have a different opinion. Some will agree on few or most, but if you go to the detail, they will all see something uniquely and totally differently. Trendy of course cannot please everyone. But they can please the masses, or the ones they want to and target. Of course it is a developers desire to listen to such debates because a lot more come out of it.

I will not pretend and say that all requests or buffs are for the good of the game and it's continuity as a lot proclaim when they state the reasons they want something nerfed or buffed. But there are few who actually do the numbers, and warn Trendy or any developer for things that might be breaking the game.

For me it is silly going into that debate unless it is something obvious and not just the way I would like to experience the game differently. I can differentiate if it is something I want, or the game needs.

However it is not all for bad, and usually if you let people talk they will reveal the reason they are truly asking or proposing or want something. All you got to do is listen.

(Damn I m good)

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@ArchaicLotus quote:

I have a sincere question.  What is the purpose in bringing up nerfing anything?  This hit me because the last post, about nerfing the dryad/vicious strikes shard, was so popular.  I started thinking about the whole dynamics of it and asked myself, 'Why does anyone care what anyone uses as long as they are not using exploits?'

I don't think anyone cares about what other people do. Most of us just want a balanced game. 

Which leads to some of us wanting nerfs to overperforming defenses, instead of tweaking underperforming ones.

Negative feedback will always be easier to notice and produce.

Don't overthink it. Just share your own opinion/solution on the topic.

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I know the nature of nerfs. My question was; why do people ask for them...And to Toro, I want to set a record on all platforms: highest floor achieved without prestiging, and to see how long it will hold. Sure, eventually, people will have passed me, but will have prestiged a few times. Blade and Marcos are doing it the other way I'd do it. How much time will that take? I love the increasing difficulty, hate the freezes.

Toro you keep mentioning that it doesn't mean that I'm better or worse than others. This is the second time you've mentioned that. As far as PS4 goes I'm top two. Of course you'll disagree and of course you'll say that this is my opinion, but you and your friend that keep mentioning how easy it is, in group chat, to do what I do compels me to say to you this. Regardless of what you believe. Last time you grouped with me was only a couple of Masteries, and that is it. I'm climbing the floors without prestiging because it is the hardest thing existing in the game right now. I have not hit 200 yet someone may catch me that hasn't prestiged. There are only two other people whom I believe could hit floor 200 without prestiging.  Not prestiging really allows a player to see how the difficulties develop, and hidden patterns are revealed. So do me a favor, don't put words in my mouth like I hate prestiging, don't talk about me in group chat, stop downplaying my efforts. Do yourself a favor, stop comparing yourself to me. You have a complex that is showing and the negative overtones are very apparent to me.

Many people owe you much gratitude for the hard work you put in for Trendy in showing them videos of crashes and glitches. But my gratitude stops there. You really need to stop speaking negatively about me in groupchat, or putting words in my mouth in public forums. Stop talking and work. Do I think that I'm better than you as a person? Not at all, not at all. Do I think that I'm better than you at this game? Absolutely. I saw your builds when you streamed your runs. Stop talking about me in chat Toro.

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I just see the balance in making all heroes have multiple effective towers. I would love that flexibility with the other heroes. Lagmonster hit 134 no Dryad. I think people just need to get more experienced at higher floors.

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@ArchaicLotus quote:

I just see the balance in making all heroes have multiple effective towers. I would love that flexibility with the other heroes. 

That's exactly what "tweaking underperforming defenses" means.

If you actually interested in making it happen, you can propose your ideas on the forums.

People interested in dryad nerfs already proposed theirs.

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I already have. Again, I don't see why people desire a hero nerf at all. Berry listed risk vs reward for Dryad. I have as well. You die on high level maps while depending on her as the builder, you most often lose, whereas not depending on her builds you don't lose. I changed out builders post floor 190 after replaying the Temple twice and won (from Dryad to another). I don't understand why people ever make bold statements for nerfs when that does not "elevate" balance. Her builds are not always the most optimal, but this cannot really be put to the test until one is challenged.

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As far of the Major Nerfs for Metas as I can remember....(I'm not crying over spilled milk, mind you. Just putting this down so we can have more notes to compare)

1) NM4 PDTs, Frosties, Boost & Serenity Auras Beast - There was a bug with the Toxic Shock bow's Passive that makes makes the PDTs poison quite insane coupled with insanely high ranged Serenity Auras that have the passives Idle flow (now Boosted Grasp) that slows enemies down and the Purge Evil (now Rippling Explosions) that makes enemies explode, dealing damage when they die. 

This already makes it a crazy meta. Plus the high ranged frosties for more slow. And boost Auras (with a pretty good range) to boost them all (except the Serenity Auras).

And this meta got nerfed and ended by obviously fixing the bug with the passives/shard. Serenity Aura gone six feet under and replaced with a horribly ranged boost aura. NM4 Boost Aura have been replaced with Flame aura. And the Frostbite's range got revamped.

2) The WMs meta of C7 - (Not really into the specifics of this as I don't have the EV2 back then, so what I heard is purely from the forums and peeps in-game) 

This is around or after Launch update. If I'm not mistaken, there was a bug with the WMs Node Increase shard that enable the effect to be duplicated which in turn (I believe) enable to peeps to do fast C7 speed runs.

Got nerfed by obviously fixing the bug and (I think) reducing some stats of the WMs.

Now, there's another meta I've heard that exist back then but I wasn't in the game when that was a thing nor was I there either when that got nerfed. So what comes next is, again, just purely what I've heard from the forums and from peeps in-game. Though I don't really know the specifics. So if I happen to be wrong in certain facts, by all means, correct me. - - - 

3) NM4 Lightning Aura and Geyser Traps perma-stun combo. The Lightning Auras is like a storm damage version of the Flame Aura and with the Geyser Trap's drench, the enemies keeps getting electrocuted effectively slowing them down a lot.

I have no idea in what way they got nerfed but by the time I joined this game, these two were no longer ideal defenses to use. (And also there is already the PDTs beast meta availlabe to use)

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Personally, I feel the focus should be more on buffing underperforming defenses first. Projectile towers require tweaks to Geodes. Huntress Defenses (aside from PDT)  and EV2's Buff Beam need reworked or replaced. There are multiple other underperforming options as well that should be included. 

More variety requires multiple options on the same tier. If the dryad is nerfed, we'll just see Ramsters spam replacing it.

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For why people want nerfs may vary but I think the most common one is I enjoy Hero 1, hero 2, hero 3 hero 4 but people say use Hero 5 because she has etc skill which makes it a must-have for end game and makes it easier or other hero's  too weak to have vs hero 5.


Really you want to make it so all hero's are viable and not have 1 favour all others

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

1) NM4 PDTs, Frosties, Boost & Serenity Auras Beast

From my memory, this was two different metas. The explostion trap, frosty, boost, SA meta was used for a long time to get through NM4. PDTs weren't really a part of that. Later, after they nerfed that meta, PDTs became the meta for a long time. You pretty much just had to put 1 pdt per lane, hit G, and watch a movie. PDTs didn't really get a nerf, they got a bug fix and a hard counter. Explosive traps got nerfed into oblivion, boost aura and SA got changed. There was a bug with the frosty towers that got fixed too but they weren't really nerfed.


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:2) The WMs meta of C7 -

This was a bug more than a meta. And a lazy quick build to easily clear the highest content.

@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

3) NM4 Lightning Aura and Geyser Traps perma-stun combo.

This was a good one. Put a lightning aura in each lane with a geyser on the front and the back end and fill the rest of the du up with monk anti air towers. Run Betsy over and over and over and over... As a result of this meta, the lightening auras and the geysers got nerfed into oblivion for awhile


My memory of the good old days are fading. Seems like there were some other metas that are missing.

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The game could possibly use a balance pass. IMO, that should be pretty low priority compared to the other development goals on the horizon. Fixing AP so it's meaningful, social gating, and itemization for example. Also, assuming you had limited time to balance, you might spend your time fixing towers that have no or little use instead of shooting in the dark at the current meta. 


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@tehgak quote:


@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

1) NM4 PDTs, Frosties, Boost & Serenity Auras Beast

From my memory, this was two different metas. The explostion trap, frosty, boost, SA meta was used for a long time to get through NM4. PDTs weren't really a part of that. Later, after they nerfed that meta, PDTs became the meta for a long time. You pretty much just had to put 1 pdt per lane, hit G, and watch a movie. PDTs didn't really get a nerf, they got a bug fix and a hard counter. Explosive traps got nerfed into oblivion, boost aura and SA got changed. There was a bug with the frosty towers that got fixed too but they weren't really nerfed.

Oh I see. I only join the game when PDTs were a crazy thing. And thanks for clarifying about the PDTs just only got a bug fix not a nerf. And wow, I didn't know the Frosties had a bug too.

@tehgak quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:2) The WMs meta of C7 -

This was a bug more than a meta. And a lazy quick build to easily clear the highest content.

And thanks for clarifying that too! I have not bought the EV2 back then.

@tehgak quote:
@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

3) NM4 Lightning Aura and Geyser Traps perma-stun combo.

This was a good one. Put a lightning aura in each lane with a geyser on the front and the back end and fill the rest of the du up with monk anti air towers. Run Betsy over and over and over and over... As a result of this meta, the lightening auras and the geysers got nerfed into oblivion for awhile

Wow, I didn't know that meta was that insane!

@tehgak quote:

My memory of the good old days are fading. Seems like there were some other metas that are missing.

There's more Metas back then?

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Lotus, not sure where all of that came from but no one is talking negatively about you, or about you at all. the only times you have come up in recent memory are about your posts here.

If I offended you somehow I'm sorry bro. I also dont care about any of this drama so I deleted my previous response post.

Take care of yourself, GL with your grind.

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There's more Metas back then?

Haha yeah but man I don't remember them all. PDTs where the longest lasting one. Proton beams were way OP for awhile but the cyborg hard counter and a bug fix kinda made them not OP (though they are still very good). Also there was an exploding mage wall setup that was fun to do. When the harbringer level came out you could put mage walls down for the final wave and he would destroy them at the start which would insta kill the harbringer. Someone with a more organized brain than mine could probably list all the metas in order which would be fun for nostalgia's sake.

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Nerfs are only needed because we all lack any kind of self-control. That is the real base answer. If one tower would kill everything on the stage - everyone would spam the ever living heck out of it. You would only see all maps of that one tower. Same with a hero - if there was one that you could do everything with, we would all play as that one all the time - hmmmm, Dryad much? So why have like 12 different heroes if you only ever play as the one? Why have variety at all if you made one thing so OP it eclipses the rest of the game? Balance is how you force that to go away. I want a reason to play with towers i never use. You ever see stage that is actually hard filled with Training Dummies and Harpies? Nope. I bet you see Bees and Rams though. This game thrives on creativity, and that falls short of you over focus in one small area. Nerfs, tweaks, and changes are the path to that creativity and fun. Unless you just want to play Dryad Defenders 2. 

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@enigma007 quote:

I don't think anyone cares about what other people do. Most of us just want a balanced game. 

Which leads to some of us wanting nerfs to overperforming defenses, instead of tweaking underperforming ones.

Nobody seems to care about the Barbarian being over powered.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Nobody seems to care about the Barbarian being over powered.

It's the newest toy. We want to play with it. He is OP. He will likely get nerfed later so enjoy it while it lasts. Maybe his OP level is a balance to his lack of towers. Got to have some reason to want to play as him (and more importantly for TE - buy him). But, all things considered, he really should not be any more powerful than the GunWitch as she is the other non-tower DPS hero. 

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"Personally, I feel the focus should be more on buffing underperforming defenses first. Projectile towers require tweaks to Geodes. Huntress Defenses (aside from PDT)  and EV2's Buff Beam need reworked or replaced. There are multiple other underperforming options as well that should be included. 

More variety requires multiple options on the same tier. If the dryad is nerfed, we'll just see Ramsters spam replacing it." -  gotrunks712

This is what my focus would be as well.  Dryad is great at solo, but two or more people I would only use slime pits and trees, if any.  For me, the attack radius for the bees and the nimbus have been very unreliable.

Just because she's the go to for many, and works to a certain point, let the many have fun.  She stops working eventually.  This may be me, because others are killing it with her.  Getting kicked over 200 times, and over 20 times at the Temple wave five just after the patch has definitely affected my gameplay.

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Its not an jssue if complaining about how others play. Its about balance which this game lacks. Dryad is too good. People eho dont have dryad are going to have a harder time unless they have access to other good heroes to make up for it. As some one who has base heroes + ev and summoner i regret choosing summoner or ev over dryad. Right now I would be able to progress significantly faster if I had chose dryad. It wouldnt be an issue if we didnt have hard counters on projectile towers, and traps. It would be even less of an issue if we could play any map we wanted. It has been a trend with DD2 that new heroes are op and better than previous ones to make people want to spend money and buy them. Since the last few have been dps, Dryad has been OP for a while. We have enough dps people should stop voting on dps heroes.

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Ninja, when you say "It wouldn't be an issu if we didn't have hard counters on projectile towers and traps" you inadvertently solved the query.  All heroes need effective towers, not just one or two towers that may only get very little use.  IF the player-base focused more on overall quality then the game would get to be more interesting and fun.  Just because she is "too good" is no reason to call for a nerf.  ALL heroes need a balance.  We put too many limitations on what the Developers can actually do.  "But nefing one is easier that balancing the many."

"we have enough DPS heroes already..."  The Dryad is not DPS at all, for one.  Secondly, you'll miss her when you hit high-tier floors.  We need balance, and balance is not nerfing.  Balance is, for example, getting rid of the Squire's Training Dummies and the EV2's buff beam and replacing them with more appropriate traps/towers.

The Dryad is not overpowered at all on higher floors.  At that, her traps don't work as intended.  She is very efficient.  You don't have to keep switching out heroes for certain towers.  Solution:  balance out other hero towers so that one doesn't have to keep switching between a plethora of heroes.

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Players in this game are ***s that would complain about there being console commands because they can cheat things in it. 

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