Bar-meh-ian

I don't want to focus on how "meh" the barbarian is, I really want to highlight how great the other heroes designs have been, and to do that, the Barbarian will be shown in contrast with the others. The purpose of this thread isn't to say "You messed up" it's to show how good you have been in the past and can be in the future, and hope that when new heroes are added we can return to the standard we've come to expect from new heroes in DD2 instead of just cramming something in just for the sake of having it.

1. Abyss Lord

The first of the new heroes, the Abyss Lord brought to Dungeon Defenders 2 totally new concepts. It was the first time a hero used a new resource that wasn't "blue mana". Instead of picking up blue crystals on the ground like everyone else, he could drain the souls of his enemies to power his abilities.

Until now all heroes were either melee or ranged, but this guy could do short-mid ranged AoE attacks or long ranged directed attacks.

He came with new towers that had new mechanics and concepts including a blockade that could dish out damage that could match any tower and a tower that could fire in 2 different directions at different enemies simultaneously.

Along with introducing new types of defenses, he came with a new set of totally unique abilities. He could summon temporary "defenses" that deal AoE damage or heal. He was the first hero with a unique healing mechanic, and the first hero that could heal other players.

On top of that, he could use an ability to power up defenses.

And he was the first hero to break the mold of power spheres.

It was a completely new and original hero. He may have started out as a remake of the Summoner from DD, but he became something new entirely.

2. Series EV2

This was not a totally new hero, Series EV was in DD. But she wasn't directly ported into DD2. She got herself an upgrade before teaming up with our grown up heroes. She wasn't new to the DD universe, but she did bring new things to DD2.

She was the first hero that introduced node and beam defenses into DD2. The only hero that could build walls that don't just absorb projectiles, but reflect them back at the enemy.

Another unique mechanic for ability resource. Instead of needing to acquire energy to use abilities, you have to dissipate heat so you don't overheat. And if you did, overheating was worse than just running out of mana because you had to completely remove it before you could use any abilities again.

She was also the first hero that added mobility with abilities. There was nothing like Death From Above in the game before this that could launch a hero into the sky, or an ability where you could decide how much ability resource to spend to increase your damage (Proton cannon).

3. Gunwitch

Probably the most unique hero released to this point. She brought many new concepts, abilities, and mechanics to the game.

A totally new hero that didn't exist in any form in any previous game. The first DPS-only hero in the game, and by extension, the first hero with 8 abilities. The first hero with a focus on mobility by: introducing double-jumping to the game (a mechanic that I still believe every hero should have), introducing flight to the game, and introducing the ability to hover in mid air to the game. Along with another ability similar to EV's Death From Above (Broom Vault) except it could be combo'd with double jump, and flying for insane mobility or just lauching yourself up high for a good snipe spot.

You could build her however you wanted
Want high single target damage? Build for Snipe, Ice Needle, Two At Twice The Price.
Want AoE damage? Build for Blunder Broom Buster, Scatter Sweep, Broom Nado.
Want to CC? Build for Blunder Broom Buster, Book Drop, Drenching Broom Nado.
Want support? Build for Blunder Broom Buster, Book Vault, Book Drop.

4. Lavamancer

Maybe the weakest example of innovation, but he's still got some things going for him. We already had heroes that deal fire damage (Apprentice's Flamethrower, Huntress's Blaze Balloon), but this was the first (and currently only) hero that specializes in a single element. Maybe we'll have more elemental heroes in the future. That alone I don't think is enough to make him unique. But besides that...

He was the first hero in the game that: had 0 DU defenses; restored ability resource through pick-ups generated by defenses; could toggle between "stances".

He's not the first hero to have stances, the Monk had crane stance & dragon stance, but had to choose a stance and stick with it through every combat phase. Lavamancer was the first with the ability to swap stances during combat (Harden/Enflame). He's also the single fastest hero, on the ground at least, with submerge/emerge.

He also introduced a brand new status effect that was useful for CC & damage: Petrify

5. Mystic

Another very unique lady. Where do I even begin? Totally new hero to DD. New theme unlike anything we've had before.

Healing: She could summon a single 0 DU defense that generates health pick-ups that anyone can use.

Ability Resource: drops from slain enemies, much like blue mana, but far more consistently. Every enemy is guaranteed to drop 1 soul while the Mystic is active in combat.

Buffs: She, and her obelisk, passively become more powerful as her ability resource pool is filled.

*TWO* new status effects: Bubble - CC'd a single enemy, but could the CC effect could be sacrificed for more AoE damage instead (popping the bubble with a ranged attack to make it rain). Confuse - make an area of enemies attack each other instead of your defenses.

Two new variants of existing status effects: Constrictor - an AoE Stun with damage over time, and Polymorph to turn enemies into snakes.

New kinds of defenses: A trap that goes through different phases of attack; A tower that can either be built for split multishot or ramp up damage over time to a single target; A tower that that becomes more versatile and more powerful with buffs as ability resource is gained.

6. Dryad

Yet another unique lady. Not completely unique and original, as it was inspired from another game, but still brings totally unique mechanics to the game.

She brought an entire new class of defenses, the AI spawners, that can work in multiple ways. They can spawn a set number of creatures that have their own attack rate and never die and seek out enemies to kill, or they can continually respawn creatures that suicide and explode. And there's so much more that can be done with this type of defense in the future now that it exists. Also has "pylon" style defense placement which is not new to the world or to the genre but is new to Dungeon Defenders.

Another hero that can swap "stances" on demand, but innovates on the concept by altering the effects of her abilities.

Another unique way to generate ability resource, by having an ability that spawns pick-ups.

Along with this hero new weapon types were added to the game.

7. Barbarian

There's really not anything new or unique here. Recycled hero ripped directly out of DD.

DPS only hero - We already have that in Gun Witch

Stances - We already have that in Monk, Lavamancer, and Dryad

Swappable stances on demand - We already have that in Lavamancer and Dryad

Stances that alter abilities - We already have that in Dryad

The downside to the barbarian's stances: they eat up *FOUR* ability slots. Monk's "stances" don't take up any ability slots. Lavamancer's "stances" only take up one ability slot. Dryad's "stances" don't take up any ability slots and alter all 3 of her abilities. Barbarian's stances consume *FOUR* ability slots and only alter 2 of his abilities. The other DPS only hero has *8* abilities, this hero really only has 4.

The status effects applied all previously existed.

The Barbarian brings:

• Zero new statuses
• Zero new effects 
• Zero new towers
• Zero new gameplay mechanics
• Zero new abilities (his abilities are really just alterations of existing abilities with new names and icons)
• Zero innovation

He seems rather uninspired when compared to unique and innovative heroes previously introduced to the game.

8. Man & Machine? *hopefully*

If we can expect the M&M to be anything like he was first presented to us, we are in for a treat whenever he finally makes his appearance. He will bring with him not only new towers, but a new category of defenses. New ways to interact with defenses. And probably new effects applied by those defenses. It wont' be something shoved into the game just because the previous game had it.

As a new player i love Barbarian, he can hold an entire lane... worth 300 DU himself

@doqpelganga quote:

As a new player i love Barbarian, he can hold an entire lane... worth 300 DU himself

That's cool, I'm glad you like it. As someone who has been playing for years, he doesn't really add anything for me. All of the other heroes came with totally unique and brand new stuff for us to play with. This guy is kinda just more of what we already had.

And it is typical for new heroes to be over powered. They've told us that they do that on purpose to make players excited to get the new heroes. They'd rather error on the side of OP instead of being useless. New heroes always start out incredibly strong and then get nerfed down to the power level of other heroes.

Yeah, the functionality of his abilities isn't unique, but he is still the most fun character I've played in this game and there's no other character that I've used that can solo a lane without any support from towers even in crazy onslaught frosty lanes.

With Barbarian came Axes, a new weapon type BTW.

Your post comes across more as salty that your Man and Machine which was voted to come before Barbarian hasn't.

I like Barb, but i would have loved to see a new tower set with a new hero. But, hey, i always want that. Mostly i was only sad to see yet another melee hero come out, as the DLC has been unbalanced in favor of melee fighters. I am a huntress fan, so i always want more shooters. That said, i do really enjoy playing as Barb. I think the two abilities are quite underwhelming, as well as some of the stances - but i very much do appreciate the fact that stances and abilities can all be combined into a lot of different combos. That is something i would like to see a lot more of in DD2, but more for towers than hero skill sets. 

@Little Magic Hat quote:

Yeah, the functionality of his abilities isn't unique, but he is still the most fun character I've played in this game and there's no other character that I've used that can solo a lane without any support from towers even in crazy onslaught frosty lanes.

With Barbarian came Axes, a new weapon type BTW.

Your post comes across more as salty that your Man and Machine which was voted to come before Barbarian hasn't.

1. Cool, he's OP, just like every new hero is when it's released. That is par for the course. That doesn't mean he's anything special, it just means they haven't got around to balancing him yet, which, of course they will. Being able to defend an entire lane for 0 DU is bad for the game in the long run. It may be fun in the short term, but there's a reason why Lavamancer's Fissue was increased from 0 DU and there's a reason why Gun Witch, another DPS only hero, can't completely solo lanes without defenses. Barbarian will for sure be fixed at some point as well.

2. I didn't mention weapon types for a reason. every hero no matter what it is has its own weapon types. Even the original 4 have their own weapon types. This is nothing new. Even Squire and Dryad who both use swords used to have their own types of swords.

3. I said good things about Abyss Lord. Good things about Series EV 2. Good things about Gun Witch. Good things about Lavamancer. Good things about Mystic. Good things about Dryad. And encouraging things about M&M. I didn't even say anything negative about Barbarian. Just meh. Just indifference towards a hero that doesn't have anything unique. You're the one who is trying to focus on the negative, even when nothing negative was said. Go away.

i love barb due to to his unique way of soloing a lane with 1-2 towers. hes a combo of dryad and mystic power. how so?  dryad can nuke bosses in 2-3s. barb can do the same, most of the time just one shot them. mystic can freeze lanes with her call to madness. barb can just auto with life steal stance and not die 99% of the time (kobolds 1 shot me). honesty he is unique in many ways. he just didn't come with anything "brand new" l

What I definitely agree with this is, bring on the Man and Machine! And I really hope he will look the same as the concept art. That is 10 out of 10!

I personally really like the barbarian.  I don't really enjoy melee combat much, but what he offers is a nice change of pace. 

As stated by others though, I'm  always looking for new towers to use.

As a side note, the only unreleased hero with assets in the game is the Countess, which makes me think she may be next. I just hope we will soon have a hero that offers ranged DPS and a new variety of towers. 

@skyhunterqueen quote:

i love barb due to to his unique way of soloing a lane with 1-2 towers. hes a combo of dryad and mystic power. how so?  dryad can nuke bosses in 2-3s. barb can do the same, most of the time just one shot them. mystic can freeze lanes with her call to madness. barb can just auto with life steal stance and not die 99% of the time (kobolds 1 shot me). honesty he is unique in many ways. he just didn't come with anything "brand new" l

The word you're looking for is over-powered, not unique. He is not unique in many ways, he is over-powered in many ways. And I promise you he will eventually be fixed at some point.

I WAS TRYING TO POST AND THE I DIDN'T NOTICE WEBSITE FORGOT TO KEEP ME LOGGED IN FOR THE HUNDRED'TH SO MY ENTIRE POST DIDN'T POST NOR SAVE. NOT ONLY ONCE BUT TWICE IN A ROW BECAUSE LOGGING IN AND GOING BACK A PAGE RESULTS IN LOGGING OUT. LOST ABOUT 2-3 HOURS OF A DARN TEXT POST AAARGH!!!! Okay moving on.

I'm amazed no one pointed this out yet. I'll only reply about Abyss Lord paragraph since I'm too lazy to re-type stuff about his other Paragraphs.

- Abyss Lord uses Blue Mana and I have no idea where OP got the idea he didn't unless it was from flavor text somewhere. Gameplay-wise its basically Blue Mana. I don't know if the game says its Souls or Life force or whatever and I'm certainly sure it doesn't.

- Abyss Lord is not the first hero who can heal other players. Monk can heal via Serenity or Heroic Wave I think that was his ability called. To be fair Monk was trashy at the time Abyss Lord was released If I RECALLED CORRECTLY.

- Abyss Lord was not the first hero who could use both Melee and Ranged type/distance attacks. Once again you're forgetting Monk although Monk didn't attack as wide with his Melee and his Projectiles is rather lackluster. To be fair at the time every other Hero was incredibly underpowered at the time compared to Abyss Lord if I recall correctly. I do believe Huntress was the only viable hero for endgame because...reasons up until Abyss Lord. The other heroes got buffed in a future patch though.

- I'm amazed there was no mention of a Teleporting Colossus and also being one per hero. Thats rather a unique thing that was later reincorporated into future hero designs for better or for worse.

@gotrunks712 quote:

As a side note, the only unreleased hero with assets in the game is the Countess, which makes me think she may be next. I just hope we will soon have a hero that offers ranged DPS and a new variety of towers. 

I am curious by what you mean by "assets"... 

And i soooooo agree with that last sentence. Spot on. 

@Random Asian quote:

I WAS TRYING TO POST AND THE I DIDN'T NOTICE WEBSITE FORGOT TO KEEP ME LOGGED IN FOR THE HUNDRED'TH SO MY ENTIRE POST DIDN'T POST NOR SAVE. NOT ONLY ONCE BUT TWICE IN A ROW BECAUSE LOGGING IN AND GOING BACK A PAGE RESULTS IN LOGGING OUT. LOST ABOUT 2-3 HOURS OF A DARN TEXT POST AAARGH!!!! Okay moving on.

I'm amazed no one pointed this out yet. I'll only reply about Abyss Lord paragraph since I'm too lazy to re-type stuff about his other Paragraphs.

You're too concerned with trying to post "Gotcha's" that you didn't actually read what I wrote.

@Random Asian quote:

- Abyss Lord uses Blue Mana and I have no idea where OP got the idea he didn't unless it was from flavor text somewhere. Gameplay-wise its basically Blue Mana. I don't know if the game says its Souls or Life force or whatever and I'm certainly sure it doesn't.

Abyss Lord does not use blue mana, at least not the same blue mana as the Original Four. His resource bar may be blue, but he does not sweep up blue crystals from the floor. He gains his mana by using his primary attack on enemies. That's not just "flavor text" it was a brand new resource pool with a unique method of generation.

@Random Asian quote:

- Abyss Lord is not the first hero who can heal other players. Monk can heal via Serenity or Heroic Wave I think that was his ability called. To be fair Monk was trashy at the time Abyss Lord was released If I RECALLED CORRECTLY.

I only mentioned this in the section where I was talking about his abilities. Use context clues to figure out that I'm talking about healing abilities, not towers. Before the Abyss Lord there was only 1 standard healing ability that every hero had and it was a channeled self heal. There are seven different healing abilities in the game. In order of when they were added to the game:

1. Heal Self (Apprentice, Squire, Monk, Huntress, Series EV2, Innitiate, Adept, and most likely Countess & Hunter when they are added) - The hero channels healing energy, regenerating a portion of their Health each second. The channel is broken if the hero moves or takes damage.
2. Abyss Fountain (Abyss Lord) - A healing fountain of energy from the spirit world soothing the wounds of all nearby. [THIS IS THE FIRST HEALING ABILITY THAT IS NOT A SELF ONLY HEAL]
3. Vroom Broom (Gun Witch) - Catch a ride on the Gun witch's broom scooter, increasing moving speed and restoring health.
4. Submerge (Lavamancer) - The Lavamancer burrows underground, moving unhindered and healing over time. Press jump or the ability again to launch up through the surface and damage enemies.
5. Serpent's Coil (Mystic) - Summon a coiled serpent that attacks nearby enemies. Should they die, a healing orb spawns where they perish. If collected by a hero, this orb heals for 60% of their max health.
6. Powder Toss (Dryad) - Purification mushrooms heal nearby allies and slow enemies. Corrupt mushrooms deal damage and stun when they expire.
7. Siphon Stance (Barbarian) - Turned damage dealt with primary attacks into self-healing. Siphon Stance causes Staggering Shout to apply a lifesteal debuff to affected enemies, converting Whirlwind damage dealt into self-healing.

Notice, Serenity Aura and World Tree can also heal but I don't mention them here because they're not healing abilities.

Serpent's Coil is debatable. If you want to call that a tower instead of an ability, that's fine. I can see it going both ways. Call it whatever you want, I won't argue with that.

@Random Asian quote:

- Abyss Lord was not the first hero who could use both Melee and Ranged type/distance attacks. Once again you're forgetting Monk although Monk didn't attack as wide with his Melee and his Projectiles is rather lackluster. To be fair at the time every other Hero was incredibly underpowered at the time compared to Abyss Lord if I recall correctly. I do believe Huntress was the only viable hero for endgame because...reasons up until Abyss Lord. The other heroes got buffed in a future patch though.

No, I'm not forgetting about Monk. But monks attacks are still either a standard melee attack pattern or projectile shots. Nobody had an attack style like Abyss Lord's primary. It's not melee. It's not a ranged projectile. It's like a constant cone of damage. So... no. Monk did not have that first.

@Random Asian quote:

- I'm amazed there was no mention of a Teleporting Colossus and also being one per hero. Thats rather a unique thing that was later reincorporated into future hero designs for better or for worse.

Yeah, that was unique. I said he came with unique towers that had unique mechanics.

@Jaws_420 quote:

@gotrunks712 quote:

As a side note, the only unreleased hero with assets in the game is the Countess, which makes me think she may be next. I just hope we will soon have a hero that offers ranged DPS and a new variety of towers. 

I am curious by what you mean by "assets"... 

And i soooooo agree with that last sentence. Spot on. 

In the install folder, the are assets for all maps, heroes, weapons, and cosmetics in the same folder.  There are multiple unreleased map assets, but the Countess is the only hero with any game assets that I saw.  You can run a search in the folder yourself and find it. 

@gotrunks712 quote:

In the install folder, the are assets for all maps, heroes, weapons, and cosmetics in the same folder.  There are multiple unreleased map assets, but the Countess is the only hero with any game assets that I saw.  You can run a search in the folder yourself and find it. 

I'm on PS4, so no such ability to peak behind the curtain of Oz. 

Well, i hope that means she brings something new to the table with her. If the Countess is just a female squire, just make that a skin/outfit/flair instead. No need for a full hero unless there is at least one new thing to add, beyond a few different shards. I would LOVE to see a whole new tower set for each gender swap. Looking at you Initiate. 

As the Rasta Shark Defender- i must stop and acknowledge my post 1-420....pause for the cause....

To be more specific now that I have access to my pc, the file path is here:

\SteamApps\common\Dungeon Defenders 2\DunDef2\UDKGame\CookedPCConsole

There is a file called "01_Countess_Default.Tex.Countess_Eyes_Default_D.tfc" with the files for all of the other heroes.  It was added to the game with the other Barbarian files.

I have the barbarian in DD1 and DD2. The thing I find odd about the DD2 rendition is the taking damage to be able to do X idea.

The barb in DD2 seems fragile compared to DD1 and the AoE of hawk strike seems tiny.

In DD1 it is impossible to miss with it in DD2 it's hugely disappointing to miss with it only to have to then wait for a cooldown. Your available mana should be your cooldown, not some arbitrary limit.

Does the jump with right click actually do damage on landing, as it seems rather pointless, especially as you seem to get stuck on any little obstacle in the map.

I'm sadly underwhelmed with him

@Fozzie quote:

I have the barbarian in DD1 and DD2. The thing I find odd about the DD2 rendition is the taking damage to be able to do X idea.

The barb in DD2 seems fragile compared to DD1 and the AoE of hawk strike seems tiny.

In DD1 it is impossible to miss with it in DD2 it's hugely disappointing to miss with it only to have to then wait for a cooldown. Your available mana should be your cooldown, not some arbitrary limit.

Does the jump with right click actually do damage on landing, as it seems rather pointless, especially as you seem to get stuck on any little obstacle in the map.

I'm sadly underwhelmed with him

Well said. I agree on the limited Hawk strike area. I often miss my target, especially due the the small lag that occurs at times when you are mob deep, and it is hard to target the back of a moving Roller well. The cooldown on that ability seems counter intuitive to me as well, as using it again ought to work but for whatever fury to have at that point. I am immensity not found of his lighting stance's ability to drain HP, as well as one of the shards that does the same - so i never really use them. It's hard enough at times with Siphon stance on, and a life steal shard - to stay alive. At least with my play style. 

Apart from that i find him to be a fun tanky unit. Of all the melee fighters, i must admit he is my fave. I never had the pleasure of a DD1 roll with him on PS3....sad. I am very happy we got a second chance to use him now (hear that Jester!!!!! ). 

@gotrunks712 quote:

To be more specific now that I have access to my pc, the file path is here:

\SteamApps\common\Dungeon Defenders 2\DunDef2\UDKGame\CookedPCConsole

There is a file called "01_Countess_Default.Tex.Countess_Eyes_Default_D.tfc" with the files for all of the other heroes.  It was added to the game with the other Barbarian files.

Thanks! Strong possibility that she will be added soon then, eh? M&M is so next, and i think Countess will be after that.