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harry4550

Idea for wall re balance

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Many people seem to want walls to be a viable choice again. Personally, I do not agree with a lot of the suggestions that have been talked about. I think the wall towers need more utility then just blocking off a path. Minions currently do this job way to well and I don't want to change the behavior of current enemies. I propose the following changes be made:


Magic Blockade: 

1. Buff HP scaling 

2. Readjust how the tower strips elemental immunity. Instead of stripping elemental immunity on contact, add an aura around the blockade to strip elemental immunity. I think the aura size should scale with range and be roughly 30% of the size of monk auras. 

3. Increase size by 50%. Right now they are way to small to to have a single blockade block a typical path. 

4. Allow tower to block Harbringers projectiles 


Spike Blockade:

1. Buff HP scaling

2. Add a "bleed" effect on contact. Bleed effect will increase damage taken by mobs by a scaling percentage. Effect should stack with spider web. Bosses should remain immune to bleed. 


Bouncer Blockade:

1. Buff HP scaling

2. Make tower immune to spider web. The twist should free the tower of the web. 

3. Increase towers range. Damage and knock back should scale with the distance the mob is from the center. (similar to proxies)

4. Increase attack rate


Slice and Dice:

1. Increase range

2. Immune to spider web

3. Buff HP scaling

4. Enemies take increased damage each second they are being attacked by the tower. (similar to Harbringer's aura) Add a cap of like 3-4 seconds to keep damage numbers from being stupid. 


EV Wall:

1. Make them immune to being desummoned

2. Add a slow tower heal after x seconds of taking no damage (combat phase only)

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I like these changes but the Magic Blockade changes sound a bit weird. It'll depend on how it's implemented. The range of the elemental immunity removal should be shown when placing the wall. The visual effect of removing immunities should be subtle as well. Maybe add a floor decal like a trap, or make it shoot a colored lightning bolt when stripping immunities.

If you're going to make this wall block Harbinger projectiles, you could consider adding this feature to Reflect Beams as well.

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I like most of your proposals, but this one I have an alternate idea for:


@harry4550 quote:Slice and Dice:

1. Increase range

2. Immune to spider web

3. Buff HP scaling

4. Enemies take increased damage each second they are being attacked by the tower. (similar to Harbringer's aura) Add a cap of like 3-4 seconds to keep damage numbers from being stupid.

SnD damage was already buffed, and it's actually extremely high now, so we don't need #4.  The reason people don't use it is because of the attack pattern, which you're solving with increased range.

Here is my counter proposal: 

 1. SnD sucks enemies into range
 2. Immune to spider web
 3. Buff HP scaling

What do you think?

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@Plane quote:

I like most of your proposals, but this one I have an alternate idea for:


@harry4550 quote:Slice and Dice:

1. Increase range

2. Immune to spider web

3. Buff HP scaling

4. Enemies take increased damage each second they are being attacked by the tower. (similar to Harbringer's aura) Add a cap of like 3-4 seconds to keep damage numbers from being stupid.

SnD damage was already buffed, and it's actually extremely high now, so we don't need #4.  The reason people don't use it is because of the attack pattern, which you're solving with increased range.

Here is my counter proposal: 

 1. SnD sucks enemies into range
 2. Immune to spider web
 3. Buff HP scaling

What do you think?

i like the sucking into range thing (tornado animation please )

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@Double Dark quote:

I like these changes but the Magic Blockade changes sound a bit weird. It'll depend on how it's implemented. The range of the elemental immunity removal should be shown when placing the wall. The visual effect of removing immunities should be subtle as well. Maybe add a floor decal like a trap, or make it shoot a colored lightning bolt when stripping immunities.

If you're going to make this wall block Harbinger projectiles, you could consider adding this feature to Reflect Beams as well.

It would make perfect sense since 90% of the app towers are elemental and are useless if enemies are immune

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This is my prototype for Slice 'n' Dice with suction:


EDIT: Ooh, I really hope people want these!  I'm playing around with them on a level 15 countess on hard mode and it's really fun :)

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+1 to all changes but SnD dealing more damage. Really like the suction for SnD

Also, is there any chance the Jack in the box can be changed to be able to hit ogres?

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As long as my magic blockades can be less than utterly useless against elemental archers, I'm good with them. After a bit of thinking, it seems like the best solution would be to have it heal instead of losing health when struck by elemental damage (to offset generic damage inflicted by hits that debuff), so its debuffing ability isn't completely defeated by its low health. 

The SnD suction change is glorious. Please, I need this in my life. What kind of ranged cap can we expect on the suction?

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For the most part, I'm a big fan of these suggestions. If they went live as is in the OP, walls would be in a significantly better place than they are right now. I also like the SnD change suggested by Plane.


However, I feel adding an elemental strip aura to magic blockades is ineffective. Personally, I can't think of any situation where I would put my walls outside of a strength drain aura, which already suppresses elemental affinity. As Plane pointed out in DDRnG chat, it would be great for early game players, which is why I still like the suggestion, but I think Zurkov's suggestion above would be more ideal and make it more useful both early game and end game.


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I suggest we simply makes magic blockades immune to elemental damage and get rid of their on hit darkness effect. Solo Leveling Apprentice/Adept won't really be effected, and the Magic Blockades would have a unique utility that players can experiment with.

Maybe Harbingers attack priority could be changed so they go after the closest target first, making this tower very useful for dealing with their ranged abilities? just a thought.

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I think solo apprentice would be gimped a fair bit if he had no way to remove elements. I'd even be fine with a DU cost increase if letting it regenerate health from 100% elemental damage is considered too strong a buff (which would also fix the "jester present defenses never cost more DU than the real deal" exception it is now).

The main point of my suggestion was that it could potentially strip an unlimited number of enemies of their elements and provide a little more protection in a few specific situations (acid ball spam, kobolds, etc) without really being any more durable if unsupported.

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These suggestions are great, but I think the HP buffs do need to be taken incrementally. We don't want anything to become overpowered.

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@Zurkov quote:

I think solo apprentice would be gimped a fair bit if he had no way to remove elements. I'd even be fine with a DU cost increase if letting it regenerate health from elemental-only enemies is considered too strong a buff (which would also fix the "jester present defenses never cost more DU than the real deal" exception it is now).

Most of the time myself and what I've seen of others, they tend to build multiple elemental towers, such as MM and FB. Since mobs that are lets say the Fire Element in this case, can't kill the blockade, they will eventually die to the magic missiles. Slightly slower but safer overall, this also promotes multiple tower types to be built which imo is never a bad thing.

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Toomuchsugar

As someone who uses a Bloodshot Staff as one of my primary DPS weapons, believe me when I say it really hurts when an ogre is immune to the bulk of your DPS.

What's more, enemies that roll elemental do generic plus ADDITIONAL elemental damage, rather than their damage being changed to elemental only. If the blockade was only immune to elemental damage and did not debuff, that would certainly not qualify as a buff since the current one does not continue to receive elemental damage from most enemies by virtue of removing it.

Healing from elemental damage would mean that enemies who rolled as elemental would do no damage (elemental healing negates the generic damage). It could remove elements from a potentially unlimited number of enemies (if they were dealt with promptly once debuffed), but generic enemies could wreck it as usual.

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I also use Bloodshot, know the feeling, kite it back to your str drain/spiders. Unless Str Drain is nerfed, I don't see anything replacing it.

I don't think it would be impossible to have the game check if the enemy has an elemental affinity, then ignore most or all of it's damage.

Edit: My problem with self healing walls is that it's essentially the same as just increasing their HP/scaling or worse case they become completely broken and almost never die. If they get a darkness aura effect they still won't really be used outside of solo app/adept (due to how good str drain is), in which case they shouldn't be changed at all.

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There is a difference between recovering health and self-healing without any outside influence. Minions are not popular because they can recover health, but because they can do it reliably. If they required very specific scenarios to recover health, then they'd be a lot more niche choices for walls.

I'm pretty confident that this wouldn't unbalance them since the only enemies that consistently deal elemental damage pose other problems besides their straight damage.

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Even if minions didn't heal, I'm sure players would still use them as wells. They can't be moved by sharken, they don't cost DU, and they can interrupt djinns. Sounds like very good reasons to use them over any other option given the choice.

Self healing just lets players be lazy, which is not what I want more of. If they are going to heal but not in a consistent enough way, they're useless. If they heal too much, they become too strong especially for 1 DU.

I assume we both agree they shouldn't be allowed to live forever, but how long should they live? (on average) If lets say 30% longer, why not just add 30% more hp and take out the inconsistency?

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What I would like to see is a magic blockade that doesn't get shredded by ranged stuff elementally attuned to be ignored by your strongest towers, and that don't take damage merely from removing elements from stuff.

Aside from that, I feel like the current health is enough for them to be usable. The healing from elemental thing just seems like a simple way to achieve both those goals at once while letting them fill a niche that currently is not occupied by any other wall.

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Another option is to have them absorb elemental damage, increasing their max hp based on the damage they've taken. Same thing as healing just better after they've been repaired.

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That sounds like they'd become ungodly tanky beasts after 20-30 waves on survival.

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They would be tankie, it would need balanced. Maybe instead of 1 to 1 on the increase, make it gain half as much. The idea of it is that it won't be that strong on campaign, gaining value the longer the game goes on for late wave survival. Gives you a tower that becomes better the earlier wave you start on. You would have to micro manage them a lot, healing them constantly until they bulk up.

Still think giving them immunity to elemental damage fits the best thematically, and has potential to actually be used in some spots.

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I would approve of elemental immunity if generic+elemental enemies could be included until their element is removed.

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