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gigazelle

Sharken: Burst damage or shove?

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Hi everyone!

There seemed to be a bit of controversy regarding sharken balance in the blockade thread, so I've opted to dedicate this to any proposed changes.

One of the major reasons why blockades are almost never used in NM is directly due to Sharken and their ability to shove defenses aside. Minion walls, on the other hand, do not have this issue at all since Sharken do not charge them.

  • A proposed change was to change the Sharken's behavior from moving defenses to burst damage. This would apply to all tangible defenses, including minions. The Sharken would paw the ground, charge, then upon reaching its target would smash both claws, dealing a large burst of damage. Minion walls would still be viable, but much more care would need to be taken in order to prevent archers from being killed.
  • Another proposed change was to preserve current Sharken charging behavior, but allow Sharken to charge minions. Minions who are charged would be shoved out of the way similar to other towers, and would remain at the location they were shoved.

Considering the above blockade imbalances in the game, what are your thoughts and opinions on Sharken? Do you have your own ideas on how we as a community might be able to balance their threat against blockade viability?

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Allowing sharken to shove minions would destroy current end game DD, so I'm against that option.

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Allowing Sharken to shove minions just makes gas traps mandatory regardless, if they can charge and deal burst damage you have the option of placing a wall,building a gas trap in order to protect minions, or building more damage so they don't get the chance. Most will opt for the latter given the opportunity. 

I'm in favor of removing their shove either way, it opens up many more potential building options.

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+1 removing shove.

I'm not entirely sure if this is the kind of suggestion you're looking for, but it's an idea I thought I'd share.


Instead of pushing towers or dealing burst damage, Sharken will stop upon tower/minion collision, hold their claws in front of their body to form a shield and hunker down for a few seconds. During this hunkered down state they gain incredible damage resistance from the front, block projectiles and distract towers, allowing other enemies to advance with little to no resistance.


This could give us the opportunity to bring some of the lesser used defenses into the meta:

Spike Blockade - Sharken charging into Spike Blockades take additional damage and are stunned briefly. The blockade problem becomes the solution!

Jack-in-the-Box - Knocks them back, immediately interrupting their charge/canceling their hunker down state. Who doesn't want to see Jack-in-the-Boxes on the frontline?

Bouncer Blockade - Same as above.


This could also open up the possibility to do some balance changes to other towers. For example:

Are Harpoon Turrets currently overpowered? (legitimately unsure, I'm just returning after a long break.) Have the harpoons break on collision with the Sharken's claw shield. Are they currently underpowered? Have them penetrate the claw shield, making them a viable counter.


Thanks for reading :3

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Personally I typically avoid using walls because they don't heal themselves like minions can. I always try to build as many walls with minions so that I can save the du for other things. I typically don't ever have any real issues with shaken moving walls on me. 

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I'm very much against the idea of moving minions because it will be of huge consequence to any build there is now. And I'm not sure about the motivation for this idea as well. Some more versatility in building is fine, but this is a huge balance change imo. 

I think that the careful placement of towers is vital for getting to those late waves and I tend to avoid building anything sharken can push aside unless i'm very sure that spot is well defended. I use 2 EV walls on my ember surv build, but those walls are protected by a stack of about a dozen lt/harpoons and mobs need to cross 3/4 of an aura to get to them. 

If something like your first suggestion was implemented the healing of minion walls is something that would make them still favourite over normal walls in most situations I'd feel.

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I think ideally Sharkens will 1 shot minions if they charge, at appropriate gear level. Once your summoner out gears the map and your minions have enough hp/healing, you should be able to do a more aggressive build.

@XGrimorgX quote:

I'm very much against the idea of moving minions because it will be of huge consequence to any build there is now. And I'm not sure about the motivation for this idea as well. Some more versatility in building is fine, but this is a huge balance change imo. 

I think that the careful placement of towers is vital for getting to those late waves and I tend to avoid building anything sharken can push aside unless i'm very sure that spot is well defended. I use 2 EV walls on my ember surv build, but those walls are protected by a stack of about a dozen lt/harpoons and mobs need to cross 3/4 of an aura to get to them. 

If something like your first suggestion was implemented the healing of minion walls is something that would make them still favourite over normal walls in most situations I'd feel.

Kinda worried this change won't shift the meta at all, other than making gas mandatory but time will tell.

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@Toomuchsugar quote:

I think ideally Sharkens will 1 shot minions if they charge, at appropriate gear level.

[...]

Kinda worried this change won't shift the meta at all, other than making gas mandatory but time will tell.

Yeah, I don't see a shift to other blockades since this change doesn't address the main reasons people use minion walls:

 ① They don't take DU.
 ② They have a 360° attack to counter djinn unsummoning (and golding).
 ③ They have a 360° attack to counter spiders.
 ④ They self-repair.
 ⑤ They debuff.

I don't think we should do something that makes minions less viable, especially if it leaves the game without any viable alternatives to replace them.  The idea of sharkens one-shotting minions is kind of scary in that respect.  Gas is not a perfect counter, so this sounds like a recipe for frustration more than anything.

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+1 remove sharken pushing. 

Pretty sure there's a different post on this same exact topic. Not a fan of the 1-shot minions idea. I'd say it should be similar to an Ogre hit, or maybe a little stronger. I'll admit summoner minions are a bit overpowered for walling, but that's why the wall changes post exists to make them more viable.

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Wow it makes me sad to see so many people agreeing with something I don't like. I guess that's the pitfall of CDT; when you disagree with the community as a whole.

I said so in the other thread, but I shall say so here as well, for the sake of having relevant opinions in relevant places.


I do not think Sharkens should be changed at all. They function perfectly well in the game as it stands now and any change in balance for them would be a massive shift (/***ting) on what the initial focus of what the Eternia Shards mobs brought to Nightmare as a concept.

I feel like most of the changes in the blockade thread already address dealing with sharken, and that changing them would invalidate the entire purpose of that thread / those changes.


/my two cents.

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@talantmajr quote:

I do not think Sharkens should be changed at all. They function perfectly well in the game as it stands now and any change in balance for them would be a massive shift (/***ting) on what the initial focus of what the Eternia Shards mobs brought to Nightmare as a concept.

I agree with this. I don't think changing Sharkens is the right way of buffing lesser used walls. By removing the push from Sharkens they just become another Orc/Ogre ripoff.

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Maybe add a stun or mini "web-like" 2x damage taken debuff instead? I don't think it should push towers without pushing minions, and most people are not going to be happy if minions get pushed.

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@talantmajr quote:

Wow it makes me sad to see so many people agreeing with something I don't like. I guess that's the pitfall of CDT; when you disagree with the community as a whole.

I said so in the other thread, but I shall say so here as well, for the sake of having relevant opinions in relevant places.


I do not think Sharkens should be changed at all. They function perfectly well in the game as it stands now and any change in balance for them would be a massive shift (/***ting) on what the initial focus of what the Eternia Shards mobs brought to Nightmare as a concept.

I feel like most of the changes in the blockade thread already address dealing with sharken, and that changing them would invalidate the entire purpose of that thread / those changes.


/my two cents.

imo the burst dmg is what should of been the base affect in the first place ( trying iqnore that the summoner and aqua came out in similar time frame to push people to buy the dlc so there towers wouldnt get pushed or is it just my tinfoil hat mind)

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@1aydan quote:

imo the burst dmg is what should of been the base affect in the first place ( trying iqnore that the summoner and aqua came out in similar time frame to push people to buy the dlc so there towers wouldnt get pushed or is it just my tinfoil hat mind)

Considering the business ethics and monetization methods of DD2, I don't think your observation warrants a tinfoil hat at all. In fact, the same could very much so be said about EV buff beams + reflect beams and copter rockets + lots more ogres, since they were released only a couple months apart. 

However, regardless of whether or not Sharken were specifically designed to sell more Summoners, the enemy has been that way for years, and changing their charging ability would be the single-largest balance change the CDT would do to-date. Even with the amount of support in this thread, the change makes me apprehensive. The arguments stating that sharken would become a glorified orc are 100% valid.

The bottom line we aim to achieve here is to be able to bring more defenses out of the "trash tier" pit, and are willing to look beyond defense stats and scaling to achieve that. The issue is that minions outclass walls in so many ways, and there's no way we will be able to balance them in a single update. This is going to be a repeatedly iterative process, and if we truly want to make more defenses relevant, minions might need to get hit by the nerf bat for it to happen.

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@gigazelle quote:This is going to be a repeatedly iterative process, and if we truly want to make more defenses relevant, minions might need to get hit by the nerf bat for it to happen.

Personally, I'm against a minion nerf

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Instead of removing sharken shove, how about proposing making specific towers immune to shove?

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@Plane quote:

Instead of removing sharken shove, how about proposing making specific towers immune to shove?

Like which towers? Are you suggesting all (/most) of the walls/blockades? Or only some of them? I personally think this is still a bit too close to removing shove altogether (if any of the defenses they might be able to target (read: the walls keeping enemies away from your damage dealing towers) can't be moved anyway).


I feel like builds in nightmare currently have to think very hard about spiders, chopters and djinn (the other three eternia shards enemies) but that most builds don't even have to consider sharken because of minion walls.

What exactly is the thing that is trying to be 'fixed' with this change? Is it simply that minion walls are way more OP than literally every other type of wall? Because, if so, I still feel like buffing all of the other walls is going to help loads with that (Slice N' Dice change!!)


@Plane quote:

Personally, I'm against a minion nerf

I've got a crazy idea that may or may not be horrible, but the point of these threads is discourse / weird ideas, right? Nothing to be lost by throwing out a crazy idea. (...right?)

What if we 'nerfed' minions (stay with me) by allowing them to be moved by sharken (STAY WITH ME) but then- as quickly as possible- the minion moved back to its initial position.

There would then be a tiny amount of time (say, a few seconds) that your defenses had a hole in their line; which would obviously matter a lot in some maps / in some places, but matter a whole lot less in other maps / places.

It would mean people would have to think about sharken when designing builds, again (but i'm not sure if that's the point of the thread or not).

Thoughts?

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@talantmajr quote:

What if we 'nerfed' minions (stay with me) by allowing them to be moved by sharken (STAY WITH ME) but then- as quickly as possible- the minion moved back to its initial position.

Imagine this:

 ・ Minion has ogre aggro.
 ・ Minion gets shoved by Sharken.
 ・ Minion is now near a core.
 ・ Ogre attacks minion and hits core.

Game over . . .

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@Plane quote:

Imagine this:

 ・ Minion has ogre aggro.

I wasn't aware that Archer minions did enough damage to consistently have ogre aggro.

Wouldn't the exact same thing happen (but worse, with the new suck-in mechanic) if a Slice N' Dice was pushed? Or a Bouncer? Bouncers have much higher dps than Archers (I know they also have knockback, but in your example it only took one hit for Game Over, so..)

It seems to me that Sharken push doesn't really mesh well with any of the Walls that also do damage (if we're talking about ogre aggro). Is that the problem we're trying to fix?

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I would personally say that blockades should be immune to shoving (preferably able to actually stop the charge rather than just not be a target), and I wouldn't be opposed to letting Sharken target minions in exchange.

Turning the shove into burst damage makes the Sharken a much less interesting enemy than it is now, which is saying something.

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