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Trichouette

Quick suggestion about multiplayer scaling of enemies

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If i'm not mistaken (and if I am, this thread is probably pointless), last time I checked, having more players in your party meant enemies will have more health (i'm not sure about their damage) and that's it.

No DU bonus or defense scaling or anything.

Meaning, while each player bring more DPS on the "hero side", nothing changes on the "defense side", and the defenses become quite pointless the more players are present in your party.

While some map can be played "one player on each lane", the result of this mechanic is that playing solo is easier than playing with others.


Why not take an "orc must die unchained" (OMDU) approach ?

In OMDU, enemies' health / defense damage do not change with the amount of players in your party, however, each player gets his DPS decreased.

Therefore the total DPS of your party doesn't increase by a lot (unlike in DD2), and defenses are still as efficient.

Instead of bringing a hero for a huge DPS increase, your bring it for utility. That new player can secure a lane, repair, CC and deal damage but he probably won't be able to completely destroy bosses on his own.



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@Trichouette quote:

If i'm not mistaken (and if I am, this thread is probably pointless), last time I checked, having more players in your party meant enemies will have more health (i'm not sure about their damage) and that's it.

No DU bonus or defense scaling or anything.

Meaning, while each player bring more DPS on the "hero side", nothing changes on the "defense side", and the defenses become quite pointless the more players are present in your party.

While some map can be played "one player on each lane", the result of this mechanic is that playing solo is easier than playing with others.


Why not take an "orc must die unchained" (OMDU) approach ?

In OMDU, enemies' health / defense damage do not change with the amount of players in your party, however, each player gets his DPS decreased.

Therefore the total DPS of your party doesn't increase by a lot (unlike in DD2), and defenses are still as efficient.

Instead of bringing a hero for a huge DPS increase, your bring it for utility. That new player can secure a lane, repair, CC and deal damage but he probably won't be able to completely destroy bosses on his own.



I actually just touched on this on another post. The scaling is fine on basic maps. The problem is the new map with upwards of 10 lanes. This game was originally made with a 4 player coop with 4 lanes approach so as to have 1 player per lane. Therefore the hp buff was perfectly fine as 1 hero per lane is basically an easy win. Where as the new map buffs enemies far too much to the point it’s almost impossible to safely leave a lane when a boss spawns. Again I do like the idea of the DPS decreasing while enemies hp and damage stays the same. Although this would pretty much just bring back everyone playing a tank or playing a character (like the adept) that can literally permanent cc a lane. And no one would even bother attempting to DPS when the enemies can just be stun locked forever.

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@TMyth quote:I actually just touched on this on another post. The scaling is fine on basic maps. The problem is the new map with upwards of 10 lanes. This game was originally made with a 4 player coop with 4 lanes approach so as to have 1 player per lane. Therefore the hp buff was perfectly fine as 1 hero per lane is basically an easy win. Where as the new map buffs enemies far too much to the point it’s almost impossible to safely leave a lane when a boss spawns. Again I do like the idea of the DPS decreasing while enemies hp and damage stays the same. Although this would pretty much just bring back everyone playing a tank or playing a character (like the adept) that can literally permanent cc a lane. And no one would even bother attempting to DPS when the enemies can just be stun locked forever.

I know you did "touch this on another post", I had the idea to post this since a long time but when I read your post I was like "hey you have a few minutes to lose, why not write it right now ?" and so I did.


Maybe the idea of "parmanent" CC and "everybody play a tank" could be tweaked, simply by reworking mana / cooldown and how fast mana regenerate.

You can't perma taunt/CC if you're out of mana.


But I remember when I used to play with 3 other friends, and since I was the most advanced player I had to put defenses and well, they were quite pointless at some point and everybody was forced to play a DPS in order to take care of their own lane.

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This is quite true, as much as I love the hero perspective, they need to take it back to a more tower based game. I agree heroes need to be tweaked and coop needs to be more focused for them as that was always the main reason I liked to play in the past. Solo the game is not bad but it gets boring without playing with people. And I’m not saying you were wrong for posting this as a topic even though I posted about it. I’m actually glad you did cause I thought about starting one as well. 👍

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I miss in DD1 how when each player that joined increased the level of all drops on the stage. You always wanted 4 players on every map due to this. The lack of this in DD2 males for a lot of solo maps as a result. I would love for TE to find a way to drive the co-op back into the game. Make a reason why you want to team up. We need a better carrot on the stick. 

I'm not so sure making players weaker if they play together will do that IMO. Sounds like it will just drive the solo wedge even deeper. Unless...you got something better because you did so. 

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I disagree with this because it penalises co-operative play and doesn't take into account future content difficulties. Try progressing from C7 to C8 when with friends if you're reduced in effectiveness and your towers are already struggling with the difficulty increase.

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@Little Magic Hat quote:

I disagree with this because it penalises co-operative play and doesn't take into account future content difficulties. Try progressing from C7 to C8 when with friends if you're reduced in effectiveness and your towers are already struggling with the difficulty increase.

Damage isn’t the point magic. If you have played a long time you would understand the damage isn’t needed when you can permanently cc a lane to oblivion. Anyone who has played the adept will know that you can put bubbles down endlessly stunning mobs in a giant area. Regardless damage of towers or damage they will die and will not get to attack anything. It’s very cheesy and I know people who do it.

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@TMyth quote:

Damage isn’t the point magic. If you have played a long time you would understand the damage isn’t needed when you can permanently cc a lane to oblivion. Anyone who has played the adept will know that you can put bubbles down endlessly stunning mobs in a giant area. Regardless damage of towers or damage they will die and will not get to attack anything. It’s very cheesy and I know people who do it.

I can do the same with the Huntress. Her grenades or whatev are buffed enough with shards and Ascension points that i can just stun them over and over again. However, i can only hold 1 lane by myself, so this only helps if i can solo a lane and AFK the rest. Typically though i want the damage more than the stun. If i had more damage, i would not need to perma-stun anything. I'd rather kill it then play with it. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:

I miss in DD1 how when each player that joined increased the level of all drops on the stage. You always wanted 4 players on every map due to this. The lack of this in DD2 males for a lot of solo maps as a result. I would love for TE to find a way to drive the co-op back into the game. Make a reason why you want to team up. We need a better carrot on the stick. 

I'm not so sure making players weaker if they play together will do that IMO. Sounds like it will just drive the solo wedge even deeper. Unless...you got something better because you did so. 

Having more players in DD1 increases the number of drops that can stay on the map but does not change item quality. :)

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@TMyth quote:

Damage isn’t the point magic. If you have played a long time you would understand the damage isn’t needed when you can permanently cc a lane to oblivion. Anyone who has played the adept will know that you can put bubbles down endlessly stunning mobs in a giant area. Regardless damage of towers or damage they will die and will not get to attack anything. It’s very cheesy and I know people who do it.

I can do the same with the Huntress. Her grenades or whatev are buffed enough with shards and Ascension points that i can just stun them over and over again. However, i can only hold 1 lane by myself, so this only helps if i can solo a lane and AFK the rest. Typically though i want the damage more than the stun. If i had more damage, i would not need to perma-stun anything. I'd rather kill it then play with it. 

I’m only putting this for the reason of making more heroes so less damage. Aka 4 player coop heroes having nerfed damage but mobs don’t get buffed. You just passively agreed that being in a lane is plenty alone regardless. Most maps only have 4 lanes, therefore if one player joins you could nerf hero damage by like 25%, 2 players nerf it 40%, 3 players 50%, 4 players 60%. Even with that big of a nerf to damage there are builds where heroes could still easily solo a lane. The idea is to make the game a bit harder with more people for heroes but not impossible. With 4 heroes (one in each lane), the game is extremely easy compared to solo in the long run. More people more repairs. More baby sitting. That’s the point. I’d rather have a hero damage buff than have a map like lost temple where there’s 12 lanes and I’m playing against 8 million hp goblins in onslaught where my towers tickle them.

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I'm not sure what your point is. You most certainly need damage, cc simply makes the killing more efficient. Hero damage isn't great enough on any hero to be at the point where they can hold a lane without a tower, so nerfing it doesn't make sense to me.

@TMyth quote:


@Little Magic Hat quote:

I disagree with this because it penalises co-operative play and doesn't take into account future content difficulties. Try progressing from C7 to C8 when with friends if you're reduced in effectiveness and your towers are already struggling with the difficulty increase.

Damage isn’t the point magic. If you have played a long time you would understand the damage isn’t needed when you can permanently cc a lane to oblivion. Anyone who has played the adept will know that you can put bubbles down endlessly stunning mobs in a giant area. Regardless damage of towers or damage they will die and will not get to attack anything. It’s very cheesy and I know people who do it.


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@TMyth quote:

I’m only putting this for the reason of making more heroes so less damage. Aka 4 player coop heroes having nerfed damage but mobs don’t get buffed. You just passively agreed that being in a lane is plenty alone regardless. Most maps only have 4 lanes, therefore if one player joins you could nerf hero damage by like 25%, 2 players nerf it 40%, 3 players 50%, 4 players 60%. Even with that big of a nerf to damage there are builds where heroes could still easily solo a lane. The idea is to make the game a bit harder with more people for heroes but not impossible. With 4 heroes (one in each lane), the game is extremely easy compared to solo in the long run. More people more repairs. More baby sitting. That’s the point. I’d rather have a hero damage buff than have a map like lost temple where there’s 12 lanes and I’m playing against 8 million hp goblins in onslaught where my towers tickle them.

I only agree that you can perma-stun a lane with a hero, but that does not necessarily equate to the damage you output for the lane. In my case, the Huntress does massive damage with her stun, so i can keep the hero damage up along with the stun. Still i cannot fully hold a lane on any level that is at my current Chaos level by myself. At best i am holding them in place so that my grenades can finish it off. 

I would only be okay with the player/weapon nerf if the towers were also boosted in conjunction. As my power goes down, my towers should go up. Offset each other. 

This game is already suffering from massive issues with promoting co-op play and difficulty to the vast majority of players, especially new ones. Sure end-game veterans may not have as many issues, but we cannot keep this game alive on our own. We need fresh blood, and reasons to stay at the same time. Since i have come to DD2, this is the first thread i have seen looking fro hero damage nerfs. Most people seem to agree that the co-op is horrifically broken in DD2 as compared to DD1. I just don't see how on any level hero nerfs would encourage more co-op play. 

Don't get me wrong, i understand the idea, and get the point. I just think it tailors to too small of a niche of this player base and would actually do more harm than good to all the rest. Maybe a special game mode or incursion level that incorporated this idea would be better than applying it to the entire game? 

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To answer your question about what changes...

Each player in the game increases mob HP by around 25% if I remember correctly now. It use to be something like 50% HP AND Damage. We finally convinced Trendy that increasing damage was a horrible, HORRIBLE idea and they changed it.


As far as whether or not its fair... I have to agree with TMyth on it. I think he described the situation quite well. Unless your friend is AFK, more people = easier run with how exceptionally light the modifier is.

As to WHY I imagine Trendy would prefer HP over damage reduction... The dev team for DD2 has CONSTANTLY pushed away from defenses (to my dismay...) and tried to make us have to be as active as possible, even when we're geared. More HP means less relying on defenses. Less hero DPS pushes the opposite.

So while I think your idea is interesting... and we 1000% need more reasons to play co-op (the life blood of the DD franchise), I don't think it quite lines up with what the devs want.

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@Little Magic Hat quote:

I'm not sure what your point is. You most certainly need damage, cc simply makes the killing more efficient. Hero damage isn't great enough on any hero to be at the point where they can hold a lane without a tower, so nerfing it doesn't make sense to me.

Through kiting and hero CC (the point he was emphasizing), if I never had to leave that lane, and had a wall behind me, I could hold it indefinitely without a tower with almost all heroes.

Combine any tower with that CC (what makes heroes truly OP) AND the ability to repair that wall pretty much 24/7 since you don't have to leave? Nothing can kill you unless you're 2 tiers under that map in gear.

In the nightmare 4 days, the game was always scaled for 4 players, and we didn't have the damage to kill goblins with our heroes even if we attacked them the second they left spawn, and only attacked them. We won with CC and repairing walls. THATS his point. Nothing in this game is more important than repairing. CC only comes in second, cause it buys time TO repair, and for your towers to DPS.

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@xArcAngel quote:
@Little Magic Hat quote:

I'm not sure what your point is. You most certainly need damage, cc simply makes the killing more efficient. Hero damage isn't great enough on any hero to be at the point where they can hold a lane without a tower, so nerfing it doesn't make sense to me.

Through kiting and hero CC (the point he was emphasizing), if I never had to leave that lane, and had a wall behind me, I could hold it indefinitely without a tower with almost all heroes.

Combine any tower with that CC (what makes heroes truly OP) AND the ability to repair that wall pretty much 24/7 since you don't have to leave? Nothing can kill you unless you're 2 tiers under that map in gear.

In the nightmare 4 days, the game was always scaled for 4 players, and we didn't have the damage to kill goblins with our heroes even if we attacked them the second they left spawn, and only attacked them. We won with CC and repairing walls. THATS his point. Nothing in this game is more important than repairing. CC only comes in second, cause it buys time TO repair, and for your towers to DPS.

Spot on, hero cc with even one fissure or flame aura could kill a lane with good cc, fact

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@TMyth quote:

Spot on, hero cc with even one fissure or flame aura could kill a lane with good cc, fact

I am curious - why the fissure? Unless i am plying as the LM, i almost never use these in favor of the Oil trap instead, especially since it has a stun shard and is only 20 DU. What makes the Fissure desirable? 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@TMyth quote:

Spot on, hero cc with even one fissure or flame aura could kill a lane with good cc, fact

I am curious - why the fissure? Unless i am plying as the LM, i almost never use these in favor of the Oil trap instead, especially since it has a stun shard and is only 20 DU. What makes the Fissure desirable? 

It has more range and crit scaling but has slower attack rate. It can be valid option if you don't need to hit any air enemies where you place it.

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Wow I didn't think my thread would attract so many players, great :D


@Jaws_420 quote:

I'm not so sure making players weaker if they play together will do that IMO. Sounds like it will just drive the solo wedge even deeper. Unless...you got something better because you did so. 

The thing is, when you have 4 players you get more DPS but the defenses become absolutely pointless, to the point it's maybe even better to just build blockades everywhere in order to keep enemies busy until a hero is available to dispose of them.

This game is originaly a tower defense with hero element, yet towers (and other defenses) are pointless in multiplayer because of the health scaling.

I only see three solutions :

  1. Increase the max amount of defense AND the mana available (from loot & chest) but at some point maps may be a bit tiny for the amount of defenses 4 players can build
  2. Increase defenses' damage
  3. Don't buff enemies' hp but reduce hero damage
@xArcAngel quote:As far as whether or not its fair... I have to agree with TMyth on it. I think he described the situation quite well. Unless your friend is AFK, more people = easier run with how exceptionally light the modifier is.

As to WHY I imagine Trendy would prefer HP over damage reduction... The dev team for DD2 has CONSTANTLY pushed away from defenses (to my dismay...) and tried to make us have to be as active as possible, even when we're geared. More HP means less relying on defenses. Less hero DPS pushes the opposite.

So while I think your idea is interesting... and we 1000% need more reasons to play co-op (the life blood of the DD franchise), I don't think it quite lines up with what the devs want.

I can understand your reasoning, check above suggestions ;)

It's maybe not what trendy want but a huge part of the game can be afk-played thanks to defenses, until the difficulty gets higher, there is no need for player presence.

I'm at floor 30 or something and currently the ONLY things that make me move my *ss around the map are :

  • Flying enemies (since they're a huge pain in the butt, I love OMDU since they removed them)
  • Roller (unless I planned defenses to take care of them)
  • A mutator like controlled burn or "explode on death" (which lead to blockades taking huge damage)
  • Random geode spawn

My friend and I can literally afk on every map but the last one (3/3), unless one of the things above happen.


If we had less damage, it would take us longer to deal with threat (and maybe require other players' help) and at the same time defenses wouldn't be so pointless.


I'm not sure "we want players to move their butt instead of being afk" can be achieved by making all defenses useless...

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@LineDrill quote:

It has more range and crit scaling but has slower attack rate. It can be valid option if you don't need to hit any air enemies where you place it.

Thanks. Hmm, i thought they both scaled on a 5X crit multiplier. More range is good, although the stun shard, oil slick status, and cheaper DU i would think would be more preferred. Maybe it's just a preference thing. Hard to test as i have been dumping ascension points in my oil trap for a while.

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@Trichouette quote:

The thing is, when you have 4 players you get more DPS but the defenses become absolutely pointless, to the point it's maybe even better to just build blockades everywhere in order to keep enemies busy until a hero is available to dispose of them.

This game is originaly a tower defense with hero element, yet towers (and other defenses) are pointless in multiplayer because of the health scaling.

I only see three solutions :

  1. Increase the max amount of defense AND the mana available (from loot & chest) but at some point maps may be a bit tiny for the amount of defenses 4 players can build
  2. Increase defenses' damage
  3. Don't buff enemies' hp but reduce hero damage

I have not seen the towers go useless in a 4 player match, so i am not seeing that extreme. A good builder holds their own, and the other players should be supporting by eliminating rogues, repairing and upgrading. Only some mutators and bosses really required full intervention. If towers go useless in a co-op tower def game = a complete fail IMO, but again that has not been my experience. 

Either way, i see nothing that is ENCOURAGING co-op play then. The way it is now, or any kind of hero nerfing. If joining a match made me weaker, I'd play private solo matches only... = complete fail. 

The only system i have seen TE use to date that made all of us play more as co-op has been the way DD1 scaled drops up with the player count. I miss those days... DD2 has been much less social friendly than its predecessor. 

We need a carrot on a stick, not just beaten with the stick. I think you should get more bonuses as more play with you. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:I have not seen the towers go useless in a 4 player match, so i am not seeing that extreme.

Last time I played with 3 friends was on chaos 4 or 5, and my defenses couldn't do sh*t because of the amount of health the enemies had.

(that was also due to that stupid mule/loot system making my defenses less powerful than they should be because of the bad loot generated by the lack of "highest Ipwr items"...)

However, back then chaos 6 and 7 didn't exist I think.


And as Tmyth underlined, it starts being a huge issue on maps that have more lanes than players.

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I think part of the issue is the assumption that when you have 4 players on 1 map, that all 4 know what they are doing and contribute to lane management and DPS. Usually at least 1 of them is a dud. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@TMyth quote:

Spot on, hero cc with even one fissure or flame aura could kill a lane with good cc, fact

I am curious - why the fissure? Unless i am plying as the LM, i almost never use these in favor of the Oil trap instead, especially since it has a stun shard and is only 20 DU. What makes the Fissure desirable? 

200 more range and can scale to 2M damage a crit if built correctly aka double that of a flame aura :)

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@Jaws_420 quote:

I miss in DD1 how when each player that joined increased the level of all drops on the stage. You always wanted 4 players on every map due to this. The lack of this in DD2 males for a lot of solo maps as a result. I would love for TE to find a way to drive the co-op back into the game. Make a reason why you want to team up. We need a better carrot on the stick. 

I'm not so sure making players weaker if they play together will do that IMO. Sounds like it will just drive the solo wedge even deeper. Unless...you got something better because you did so. 

I would like this, too. I know there used to be "too much loot" way back in the day. Insomuch that players complained about having too much lot on the ground. That was early early days, tho when gold didn't mean as much as it does now.

I , too, would love to see more loot drop due to having 2+ players. Upvote the Ratsa Shark Defender [[18530,users]]

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@Jaws_420 quote:

I think part of the issue is the assumption that when you have 4 players on 1 map, that all 4 know what they are doing and contribute to lane management and DPS. Usually at least 1 of them is a dud. 

Not when you're playing with friends & vocal.


Think about it

  • Currently : More players = more DPS but more enemy's health.
    Result : It takes more time for a player alone on his lane to defeat enemies.
  • With my suggestion : More players = more DPS, but the increase is less than currently. But enemies don't get health bonus.
    Result : It takes slightly more time for a player alone on his lane to defeat enemies, but it's faster than the current solution.


The difference ? In the current situation, defenses are less efficient with more players. With my suggestion, defenses stay as efficient, players are a bit less efficient and will require cooperation to deal with issues such as boss or special units.



More loot could be a reason for playing with others, but I wouldn't play with 3 other players in the current situation, because all 4 of us have to be useful and control 1 or several lane efficiently because our defenses are way less useful.

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