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Tower Changes/Balancing

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Just thought we needed a dedicated thread to Tower Changes. After all the discussion about "Should LT's be nerfed", other towers should have some light as well.

Any and All tower changes are welcome.


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You can spawn kill trash mobs with a 6 DU combo of Proxy + Gas. 
My suggestion -- nerf Proxy + Gas. Can't have trash mobs dying in 2 seconds. Nope. No.

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- Magic Missile Projectile speed needs a Buff. leading shots isn't near fast enough. I'm pretty sure mobs can out-run them.

- Minion changes. I have never seen the DEW used in any builds. Orcs appear every now and again, and Ogres are just cool to have as an option on easier maps. Could change those 2 though, maybe replace the DEW with something else or make it a viable 

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@Black Mamba quote:

You can spawn kill trash mobs with a 6 DU combo of Proxy + Gas. 
My suggestion -- nerf Proxy + Gas. Can't have trash mobs dying in 2 seconds. Nope. No.

Stop trolling mambo

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I feel that most towers are in a usable state right now (or will be once the beta hits for blockades) with the exception of Proton Beam and Stun Beam. I'm not sure what should be changed about them, so I'll have to play around with them a little and will report back when I think I know what's up.

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@Caimen0 quote:

I feel that most towers are in a usable state right now (or will be once the beta hits for blockades) with the exception of Proton Beam and Stun Beam. I'm not sure what should be changed about them, so I'll have to play around with them a little and will report back when I think I know what's up.

I have tested them on Sky City mostly. One thing I seem to be wanting from them the most is AoE, especially from Proton Beams.
Can't have vertical height obviously because they are beams. Maybe the Shock Beam can have some vertical AoE damage/triggering like the EST. 
Currently from what I can recall -- shock beam, when it triggers has a rather long cooldown becasue for the duration of it shocking enemy(or enemies) it doesn't damage anyone else passing by. So its DPS is just dreadful.
Proton beam is actually pretty good in itself, but the lack of any amount of AoE on it, makes Proxy Traps like 100x better in comparison in at least 99% scenarios.
Mostly they'll need major re-works to make them attractive to use on NM.

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The Proton Beam has, believe it or not, very significant DPS. It very closely rivals that of a Harpoon. There are a few problems it has that hold it back, however. The biggest is djinn. The beams more often than not can't hit them. The djinn has to be very close to the ground in order to take damage. This leads to the desummoning of the beam if it is not already within the aura. Its best use, then is to replace proxy traps used to kill paths of mobs from which no djinns come, which auras may not have the strength to kill. For example, some of the paths on Tinkerer's Lab or Tavern Defense.


The Shock beam deals a large, single burst of non-elemental damage to all enemies within the beam, stunning them. This damage box, much like the Etherial Spike Trap, is taller than one would expect, though still not very tall. They can, in fact, stun Ogres, but only with a very small chance to do so. Shock beams have no good use at the moment, as the damage of Proton beams is far better and Etherial Spike Traps do roughly 6x the damage with a far larger vertical hitbox. Like the Jack-in-the-Box, they do not do enough damage to justify their use, and their utility function is neither noticeable nor reliable enough to warrant wasting the DU. (I told you so squire_small.png )


I don't know how to make Proton Beams useable aside from Mambo's suggestion of more AoE, or more convenient placement areas so they can be used as low-DU wyvern killers.

Shock Beams will have a unique niche in high-end survivals if given the ability to increase the chance they can stun ogres, either by guaranteeing the stun in Nightmare by default or by significantly increasing the chance for a stun when buffed by a buff beam. Otherwise they will be useless.

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I've tried Shock Beams on Embermount but couldn't get them to work half of the time against the Dark Elf Warriors. They cost way too much DU to be worth it and they're not even reliable. Enrage Auras aren't even that useful due to Gas Traps, but they are at least have a use against enemies that are immune to the gas traps like Fish, Dark Elves, and Wyvern. To make Shock Beams useful you'd have to reduce their DU cost to compete with Physical Walls.

I've never tried Proton Beams because... Lightning Towers, Harpoons, and Proximity Traps. I can see their use in low level solo play but not in Nightmare. They just don't cover a big enough area and aren't safe from Djinn as people have mentioned.

I definitely don't like the idea of nerfs because it will completely change the game and make a lot of people mad. I'd rather see buffs to unused towers. Gas Trap is definitely overpowered, though... but I can't imagine soloing without them and they don't stop everything.

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(I don't know if trendy will like this)

My opinion to for the beams

Proton Beams: Make them similar to dd2's Frosty beam shard as the base effect ,but instead take the stun effect from the shock beam.

30% Less Damage for the cc (Crowd Control) effect

10% Less Rof ( Rate of Fire)


vJLr3km.png

 Shock Beam: Remove the stun 

35% Increased dmg for the loss of the stun.

7% increased Rof ( Rate of fire)

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I disagree based on identity of the beams themselves. Also DPS towers shouldn't be CC'ing anyway, and a 30% damage reduction makes Proton Beams unusable.

You're also not making Shock Beams any better because I'd rather just use Spike Traps.

I propose making Proton Beams a plane generator instead.
Place first corner -> first mouse movement generates X axis, Y axis is placed at 90 degrees. Second click places the diagonal point to the origin. Walls and other vertical obstruction block the plane.

You would have to drop the damage due to it being a larger area that it's covering, and DU would be interesting.

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@1aydan quote:

(I don't know if trendy will like this)

My opinion to for the beams

Proton Beams: Make them similar to dd2's Frosty beam shard as the base effect ,but instead take the stun effect from the shock beam.

30% Less Damage for the cc (Crowd Control) effect

10% Less Rof ( Rate of Fire)


vJLr3km.png

 Shock Beam: Remove the stun 

35% Increased dmg for the loss of the stun.

7% increased Rof ( Rate of fire)

Anything from dd2 is a insta no from me. Also it just doesn't make sense, why would a proton beam freeze something???

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Shock beam:

  • Reduce DU cost by 1
  • Increase fire rate (and health scaling) to be comparable to proxy traps
  • Guarantee stun to everything except ogres
  • Increase vertical hitbox to match EST
  • If a djinn tries to touch it, shock them

Shock beam in this state would be an excellent alternative to gas traps.

Proton beam:

  • Increase damage scaling by 30%

They are DPS defenses that aren't pumping out enough damage to be used as DPS defenses. Damage output is really the most viable solution here.

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I would also like to add that having a separate thread per tower per update makes gauging sentiment and community input a ton easier. Sorting through a single thread dedicated to a single tower is so much better than sifting through one massive thread full of scattered suggestions, complaints, and recommendations. I absolutely love the conversation happening here, but just realize that when it's time for the CDT to make any balance tweaks, it's the dedicated threads that get the most discussion since general balance threads can easily have someone's comments fall through the cracks.

DEW minion and shock beam definitely deserve their own threads, and I would really like to hear more of the community's input on what we can do to improve them for update 4.

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Frankly I don't see either of those change sets fixing the towers.

The Shock Beam will always be a poor alternative to gas traps because gas traps are 3 du, cheaper than most shock beams you'd be placing, are practically guaranteed to stop every mob (aside from spiders/warriors, and cover massive areas. Shock beams don't fire off the stun fast enough to catch warriors and spiders, so even though they catch them, they never fire in time to do so.  I'm also pretty sure they already guaranteed stun everything that's not an ogre. If you want to try putting those changes on beta, I suggest dramatically decreasing the cast time on the stun (make the ramp-up scale with tower attack rate) so it can catch spiders and djinn moving through it. Unless you want people building them parallel to the path mobs are traveling, in which case they'll have the same problem that Proton beams have.

The Proton Beam's problem is that it is never able to fully cut off a lane when you place is parallel to the path of mobs, and when you place it perpendicular, it doesn't have enough time to do significant damage. Which means that increasing the damage means you get 30% more damage on like 4 ticks. That's not very much. It could wind up being a fantastic ogre killer if put in front of a minion line, but I'm still not too terribly optimistic.

I wouldn't mind trying them, I just think my changes would be more helpful to the towers overall. (Proton beam becomes a damage plane, Shock beam reliably stuns ogres)

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