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Murdash

Question to TE

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Please read this.

My case, c4 gear, 4500 defpower defcrit defspeed defhp medallion with defcrit defcritchance and defpower shards.

Flame Aura does 30k+ aoe dps, invincible, has a nice range. It lets me easily clear c3 without a single monster reaching the walls, except bosses. The same thing is true with Slimes, Nimbus, Hornets, basically every trap does great.

Cannonball tower does 90k+ dps, 100k health, small range. Everything piles up at the walls. The same thing is true with flamethrowers, earthshatter, harpy, basically every normal tower is the same.

For simplicity I'll use flame aura vs cannonball comparison, these are true to nearly every trap and normal tower.

1. DPS

While a flame aura does 30k dps to 10(8?) targets doing 300k effective dps a cannonball tower only does 90k.

2. Range

Flame aura can be put anywhere because it is invincible. Cannonball has to be put behind the wall in a safe distance so it can't be killed by slekeleon cleave, orc stomp etc.

This means that the cannonball tower can only hit the targets standing directly in front of the wall.

With range shard it can hit 40% farther, this is still not enough to reach the throwers. (loses dps because -1 dps shard)

With range shard and 50/50 gambit they can hit the throwers but not the dragons or malthiuses. (loses a lot of dps because -1 dps shard and -def power from gambit)

(note that when you are first forced to use normal towers instead of traps (c2, onslaught 7) you barely have enough ascension to put like 15 points into gambit, note that it also reduces the dps by a significant amount)

3. Health 

Flame aura is invincible, you can ignore it after placement. Cannonball tower has 100k health in my case, If I put them a safe distance behind the walls and still want to hit throwers they can still be hit by the dragons' projectiles and occasionally throwers, resulting in a need to repair from time to time.


4. Shards

In order to stay viable you have to put range shards and or gambit on the cannonball tower, making it's dps go much lower because traps can have pure damage shards.


Conclusion

Traps are obviously overpowered compared to normal projectile based towers. In most cases balance problems like these don't matter that much because we can simply stick to the strong stuff and ignore the weak. Sadly since you are forcing our hand against cyborks and in like 60% of the mastery challenges we can't use the strong stuff. This is not a 10% dps loss. This is like 70% overall viability loss.


I love the base idea of the game and the TE has many good ideas. Can't this game get the balance it deserves? This specific issue made me and my friend stop playing, we loved the game back when there was only nightmare, but cyborks and mastery limitations really made the balance problems impossible to ignore.


I would really like an answer from a developer for this question: will you change this or it stays like that?



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Balance in videogames is a hard thing to achieve, plus as of right now, the game already has some issues that are more important to be fixed than balance.

If I were you, I'd probably just wait, they'll eventually play around the balance and fix things! Emoji_Apprentice.png

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build to not need walls put crit chance in for mastery, alacate upto 60 for flyers n 180 ish per lane use combos tank cybork lanes with chars , under power char lane ,get a mystic buddy to tank a whole lane with madness , traps might be slightly over powered but this lets you save du in lanes u can get away with using them so you can spend abit more in tower lanes true tower ranges could be better but thats probably all you would need to do to even them out

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Funny thing to add onto this. Trials has either Projectile Hard Counter or Aura/Trap Hard Counter. In the Projectile Hard Counter its still not good to use things like Cannonball and Ballista because they don't kill enemies before their numbers overwhelm your tower's lack of ability to hit them all before they pile up on your walls. You still resort to using AoE towers like Flamethrower or Ramster because they're not listed as being Aura/Trap. I mean its just my experience but realisitcally these "Single-Hit" projectile towers are meant for killing bosses but your Hero is already meant to do that instead so no point really unless there is multiple lanes. Even Aura/Trap have strong nuke defenses for dealing with bosses....

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Try using that OP flame aura on a boss or cyborg lane....

You need to customize defenses based on the schedule and mutation.

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a few towers have an aoe shard too loosing 1 shard space may reduce max single target dam but overall damage usually goes up and aoes like explosion n cannonball 1 shot litte guys


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I understand your points. I disagree with you on the Deadly strikes shard means you have less DPS since giving a defense means you are now hitting your targets sooner than you normally would without deadly strikes. That means more hits before enemies would get to the original distance of your defense. Deadly strikes is useful in nearly every defense. I'd prefer deadly strikes sooner than a defense shard.

You mentioned you use Defense crit chance shard. Do you have less than 60 Ascension? If so, I understand you wanting to use this shard (outside of Mastery). If you have 60+ ascension, then you should have out your 1st 20 points of the Utility Category into Def crit chance. That gives you 30% Crit chance. The max crit chance you can get is 33%. This is a hard cpa placed by Trendy. No matter what you do, you can not go past this #. That said, Using Crit chance shard when you are ascension 60+ means you are doing yourself a disservice. Adding +3% to crit chance is negligible.

Here is what I suggest using inmost cases:
Medallion= Power Transfer, Deadly Strikes, Vampiric Empowerment or Def Crit Dmg or tower specific shard
Mark = Deadly Strikes, Def Crit Dmg, Vampiric Empowerment or tower specific shard.


Use those setups until you get a handle on some of the other defense specific shards that can add utility and/or fun factor :-)

TCPOP (Take Care Peace Out Peeps)

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I use those shards in this case because they are the easiest to get as a beginner. By losing dps I mean they may hit throwers with +40% range but their dps goes down from 90k to 70k, so overall they just get even worse.

Flamethrower and ramster are the only normal towers that stand a real chance, but even those require tons of bonus range, which in turn reduces their dmg by a lot. So while a flamethrower is not as bad as a cannonball is compared to a flame aura or slimes it's still like 50% less usefull because the range shards reduce it's dps, making it deal less damage than traps and auras over the same range.

And while some of the projectile towers have specific shards to deal a bit of aoe (which is rarely even close to the weakest auras or traps) that does not validate their weakness without them imo, especially since they will still be inferior to auras or traps with normal dmg shards. 

I've got to c6 on pc back then, I just started over on xbox a while ago and I was a.bit disappointed that nothing really changed with tower balance. I was hoping for all that time, and what I'm really interested in is TE's opinion on it. Because if they think this is perfect the way it is, and the solution is simply forbidding the use of strong stuff to force people to use the weak then at least I could stop hoping and leave the game in peace.


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When you further along you can swap deadly strikes (range) for gambit. The extra slot usually allows you to put down more additional DPS than gambit takes away. The “cost” of full gambit is much less RELATIVELY to your total power when you have full C7 gear. I use it on almost everything once I had Late game gear and enough ascension.

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@Murdash quote:

For simplicity I'll use flame aura vs cannonball comparison, these are true to nearly every trap and normal tower.

1. DPS

While a flame aura does 30k dps to 10(8?) targets doing 300k effective dps a cannonball tower only does 90k.

2. Range

Flame aura can be put anywhere because it is invincible. Cannonball has to be put behind the wall in a safe distance so it can't be killed by slekeleon cleave, orc stomp etc.

This means that the cannonball tower can only hit the targets standing directly in front of the wall.

With range shard it can hit 40% farther, this is still not enough to reach the throwers. (loses dps because -1 dps shard)

With range shard and 50/50 gambit they can hit the throwers but not the dragons or malthiuses. (loses a lot of dps because -1 dps shard and -def power from gambit)

(note that when you are first forced to use normal towers instead of traps (c2, onslaught 7) you barely have enough ascension to put like 15 points into gambit, note that it also reduces the dps by a significant amount)

3. Health 

Flame aura is invincible, you can ignore it after placement. Cannonball tower has 100k health in my case, If I put them a safe distance behind the walls and still want to hit throwers they can still be hit by the dragons' projectiles and occasionally throwers, resulting in a need to repair from time to time.


4. Shards

In order to stay viable you have to put range shards and or gambit on the cannonball tower, making it's dps go much lower because traps can have pure damage shards.


Conclusion

Traps are obviously overpowered compared to normal projectile based towers. In most cases balance problems like these don't matter that much because we can simply stick to the strong stuff and ignore the weak. Sadly since you are forcing our hand against cyborks and in like 60% of the mastery challenges we can't use the strong stuff. This is not a 10% dps loss. This is like 70% overall viability loss.

1. You are comparing an AOE to a single targeting tower, so of course you will see a DPS lean toward the AOE. The original aura does not have that much range though, so that limits the area covered, and it only targets i think 8 units at a time in it. Adding range to any tower changes everything, but so does fire rate and power. 

Also, don't forget shards. Cannonball gets a shard later that allows it to fire a ball that pierces enemies, so now it has a linear AOE effect as well, pushing its DPS way up. No to mention its ability to stun (shard) makes it much more handy that the aura in certain situations. Especially in long straight lines. 

2. The auras are certainly not invincible. Each enemy targets different tower types. It's juts that most schedule enemies do not target auras or traps. Hence the exact reason the Cyborcs came along. True they may not do damage to the unit, but they do attack and disable it. Also, if you do not put health on an aura's relic, you will see how quickly it can go down. Stick a Lighting aura near a spawn point, with no health or upgrades and see how long it lasts. They can go down very fast. With a little health in your relic, they get more to the drop and forget it level. Any non-health aura i place can get red or yellow after 1 wave. 

Back to the range discussion. You can't put auras anywhere. They can be build the same places any tower can. In terms of level placement, if you have cyborcs, then you have never free to put them anywhere as the cyborcs will aggro the tower (and anything next to it), but with range in them you can still use them form the side or overhead. You have to get creative with your layout, and learn the extent of the cyborc range. 

Same goes with cannonballs. The notion of only putting them behind your wall is where your issue may be. Cannonballs are also well used when placed on the sides of a lane, where most enemies will not target or reach them. With range in them, you have even more build options. From the side though, all lane enemies are reachable. 

3. This is more if a relic management and tower placement issue than a developer tower issue IMO. Use legendary relics that have health, and both towers will benefit. If your CB's do not have enough health, stick a shard w/ health on it, or move it to another position where it is out of range. if you have the range shard plus full gambit. you can pretty much put a CB in some far reaching places. Granted some lanes on some maps do not give this option. In those cases though, maybe you should use something other than auras of CBs, like Dryad/Bees. 

4. Range helps traps too. Most traps (apart from Dryad) have crazy limited range on setting it off and its AOE. A range shard in an oil slick from the LM, with stun in it is quite effective. Most Huntress traps are considered useless  though. Apart from LM's oil, there are not many used my most people in higher levels. Dryad traps get a lot of love, but those are 100% different, which again is why i think it exists. However, i do not like range in my Bees. I found it makes them less useful as they keep running off to fight other battles in other lanes. Too much range. 

Agreed though that pretty much later in the game most towers would benefit from the DS shard. Makes farming it a must, and a giant time suck, ugh...


The flame aura is OP in lower floors. A well sharded one can basically hold down entire lanes by themselves. But as early as C2, that goes away due to Cyborcs and makes the whole argument kind of void. The auras are for dealing with mobs of grunts. Bigger units require different strategies. If you shard other towers properly though, they can easily be as effective if not more. I don't think the point of the game is to make every tower = to each other, and usable on every stage/lane. Perfect balance is not desired as it may not be possible given the level of customization and hard counters in the game. I think the point is that you have to look at the path's schedule, look at the mutators, and build according to what comes out, and not to just throw flame auras down everywhere and AFK (that is what i do on lower floors only). Because auras (and really just the flame one) are so strong is likely why they are taken away from being used where you want to. That is the actual balance IMO. 

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I still think you are under valuing Deadly Strikes [[142711,users]].

Consider this:
Would you rather hit a target (or multiple) one time for 100 dmg or Twice for 75 dmg each (150 total)?

The answer should be 75 dmg 2x. This is what Deadly strikes does (not exact #'s, but you get the idea). Yes, the dmg is reduced since we do not have an extra dmg shard. However, we are able to hit targets 2x (or more) before the enemies are able to get to the original distance. Going by DPS #'s only is not thinking thoroughly enough. Gaining range actually increases the overall DPS. It's just that the #'s don't show that on the tool tip or the dummies since range does not impact the #'s shown. However, in reality (in game reality???), adding range increases the overall DPS, like my example above, 1x for 100 dmg vs 2x for 75 dmg each.


All that said, I would definitely like more range options for all defenses. :)
TCPOP

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TE gives us a ton of range options. When high enough ascension you can use Gambits. You can equip deadly strikes. And, of course, you can pretty easily obtain viscous strikes (which they even let you stack with deadly if you really want) and it is fair to give trade off of damage across options.

I guess they could give us a higher cap on gambit....so you have near limitless flexibility to trade off DPS for range.

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