Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Thaleskpl

Gender-swapped Characters Abilities

Recommended Posts

Hello

I don't know how to start this thread, but here it goes. If any of you guys ever played with a dps countess, ranger or initiate, you should know their abilities get outclassed by their male (or female in case of ranger) counterpart. By those abilities I mean every one from the 3 classes besides the ranger ab2.

I remember seeing a post about this somewhere on the steam forums, but I decided to bring this discussion here as well.

Let's get on specifics:

1.    Initiate:
Enemy Drain:
In my opinion, if not for the excessive mana consumption scaling, this ability would be very useful. After just a few seconds, it is already taking mana in the hundreds per tick, so it lasts way less than hero boost. Also, it doesn't affect bosses, since it would make them do less damage.

I would suggest to make the mana consumption on par with hero boost (maybe just a tad higher) and apply the damage multiplier on bosses (just the damage you do, not the damage they give to you), that way you could have another option instead of just monk as a hero boost for boss waves.

Remote Defense Boost:
This ability competes with the E.V.'s buff beam, so whichever has a higher multiplier for the stats will be the one affecting the towers at the end of the checking. Since this ability scales way worse than buff beams (a 0 stat buff beam with one upgrade on it will beat a maxed remote defense boost), if you have the tower buffed by a beam of guardian, this ability will be pretty much inefficient.
Also, you need to have the heroes who build the tower in the range of the ability, which makes it useless if you don't have hybrid heroes on the map when activating it. Also, same as with enemy drain, the mana consumption is way higher than Monk's tower boost.

My suggestion to fixing it would be making it compete with tower boost instead of buff beams and guardians. I don't really think there's need to mess with the need to have the builders on map, since that makes up for boosting every tower on map, ignoring range. On the aspect of mana consumption, it would need to take just a bit less than it does right now, since if you were to use this ability to boost the map you would end using a genie and mana weapon anyways.


2. Countess:
Call to Arms:
This one has bad scalling for extra damage and mana consumption. It's just a worse hero boost that makes you quicker and makes the countess have more resists (not the whole group)  from my testing.
 
Since it competes with hero boost, I would suggest to make it scale better (but not as good as hero boost) but make it buff everyone's resistance, so there's a use besides raw damage boost. That way there would me more variability on boosting heroes.

Joust:
Joust is just a plain useless ability for doing damage to enemies, since when you hit them it almost always stops the charging. Compared to squire's circular slice, there's too much of a disparity in terms of usability.

I don't have any idea on how to fix this one. 

3. Ranger:
Invisibility Field:
It just takes mana way quicker than huntress's invisibility. Also affecting towers is usually not a good thing.

Since it affects in an area, taking more mana is understandable, but not at the scaling it has.



I think that finishes the points I wanted to make. Would anyone agree with me or have any other sugestion? Also, please correct me on any mistakes I may have done

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Thaleskpl quote:

2. Countess:
Call to Arms:
This one has bad scalling for extra damage and mana consumption. It's just a worse hero boost that makes you quicker and makes the countess have more resists (not the whole group)  from my testing.
 
Since it competes with hero boost, I would suggest to make it scale better (but not as good as hero boost) but make it buff everyone's resistance, so there's a use besides raw damage boost. That way there would me more variability on boosting heroes.

Joust:
Joust is just a plain useless ability for doing damage to enemies, since when you hit them it almost always stops the charging. Compared to squire's circular slice, there's too much of a disparity in terms of usability.

I don't have any idea on how to fix this one.  

As someone who mained a DPS countress a few years ago and still plays dress up with her every now and then, here are my opinions.


Call to Arms works great until Nightmare, it does a great job at keeping newbies with no resistances alive arguably better than the monk boost but in a decked out team of pros its relatively useless. I had ~6k in my CTA and I was outboosted in dps by a sub 2k monk's hero boost and while at the time i hated it, its logical because AB1 should not scale better than AB2.

While I like your idea for making all the bonuses affect allies here are a few more suggestions for CTA:


1) Make CTA affect buildings, similar to the squire guardian.

Seeing as no one runs the squire guardian this change seems pretty nice. Obviously it shouldn't stack but keeping buildings alive while your jesters upgrade and repair seems like a fun dynamic. Granted the resist should not be anywhere as close to what it does to heroes.


2) Make CTA's damage boost work with monk, but not with cats

This is more to do with pet variety more than anything but at the moment being a cat is infinitely more valuable than being a countess in the current meta. If this change was to happen and somehow you see a countess in every game, it would NOT replace cats as CTA has a massive mana cost and while the cat (hopefully) wouldn't boost as strong as the countress, it allows you to always be buffing allies damage, and overwriting it for a stronger boost when you need it.


3) CTA allows you to give your allies 100% resists (not insta-kills)

Making allies invulnerable may sounds stupid, and i'm pretty sure it is too but just for the sake of it keep in mind these questions: 

Have you ever seen a barb use lightning stance outside of the tavern?

When was the last time you saw a builder during battle phase outside of being slow?

Your lagging teammate is now standing in front of 8 hungry ogres, how can you protect her?

This might just be my love for the countess but If CTA at a REALLY high stat level (4k for people with 90% resist) gave you 100% then it allows people to go all out damage and makes glass cannons into solid stone. Having people build during the fight without being worried of getting insta killed by a kobold or cleaved by an ogre (even though it would interrupt repair and self heal) allows for quicker builds with more people.


Joust

The only problem with Joust is that it stops when you can't kill whats in front of you, and you can launch yourself across the map pretty easily with CTA + Joust by accident. Again this works for Insane, since you can generally kill an ogre before your joust randomly turns off, but in NM against 80 mil ogres this isn't viable at all apart from making it incredibly broken to kill everything. 

Either hooking onto enemies you hit, so that you don't fall off them / get your joust cancelled or have it "bounce" off tanky targets, launching yourself back into a better position rather than under an ogre's foot would fix this issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that this is the 5th thread on the topic.

#1

#2

#3

#4

I imagine this is enough evidence of support to change something.

Unfortunately I don't have the time to go through and find the most relevant suggestions. I'll probably do that later today.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can take a look at those threads later caimen. Ty for pointing them out to me, since I wasn't active at the time of them being posted and the search function sucking on these forums


Also, signing in trough mobile is such a pain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bumping this post because there are quite a few classes that have underpowered abilities and I'm not aware of any decision being made on the topic. Personally I am interested in the Initiate abilities being buffed. This will largely be a rehash of what Thales said above but I feel a thought out response would hold more weight than replying "+1."


First is remote defense boost. This ability in its current form is bordering on completely useless. The only time I could see myself using this is in an all monk survival run. However, because nobody uses initiates outside of their builder and the ability does not buff the caster, this isn't an option. And as Thales mentioned above, it competes with buff beams, so it would only really be valuable on builds without buff beams, which are rare at best.


Suggestion:

-The ability should buff the caster's towers. This will give the ability some use, and perhaps allow for some experimenting with hybrids.

-As Thales mentioned, compete with Tower boost instead of buff beams and guardians.


Secondly, Enemy drain. This is a really cool ability that only needs some simple changes to be effective and balanced. At the moment, it doesn't work on bosses, and monks are still preferable to bring against regular mobs because they have both tower and hero boost to help clear trash. Lastly, it is very expensive to use. Like Thales said, it should cost roughly the same as hero boost.


Suggestion:

-Allow enemy drain to increase damage taken by bosses, the same way it affects regular mobs.

-Reduce the cost of the ability.

-Alternatively, allow it to slightly reduce damage dealt by bosses instead of increasing their damage taken. Not enough to make difficult fights easy, but enough to provide increased survivability to your team in boss fights.


I would personally prefer it to increase damage taken, but if the community isn't on board with that, I feel the alternative suggestion would be acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'd settle for letting us use the current version of remote tower boost during the build phase.

The range boost is minor, but it would be very useful for hooking your auras onto a buffbeam that they otherwise couldn't reach, either because it is too far or because it is blocked by other auras. Right now you'd have to buffbeam it onto the buffbeam, or take your builder into the combat phase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Zurkov quote:

Honestly, I'd settle for letting us use the current version of remote tower boost during the build phase.

The range boost is minor, but it would be very useful for hooking your auras onto a buffbeam that they otherwise couldn't reach, either because it is too far or because it is blocked by other auras. Right now you'd have to buffbeam it onto the buffbeam, or take your builder into the combat phase.

That wouldn't be a bad change, but I would be seriously disappointed if that's all they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Initiate specifically is a lot more defense-oriented than Monk. Enemy drain effectively "boosts" all heroes -- and defenses -- against nearby enemies, and remote tower boost can potentially boost every tower on the map at once.

I think she'd require a massive ability rework to be viable as a straight DPS, especially compared against Monk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Zurkov quote:

Initiate specifically is a lot more defense-oriented than Monk. Enemy drain effectively "boosts" all heroes -- and defenses -- against nearby enemies, and remote tower boost can potentially boost every tower on the map at once.

I think she'd require a massive ability rework to be viable as a straight DPS, especially compared against Monk.

Remote tower boost can't really do that because any scenario where she would be needed, you wouldn't ever want your builders out. You'd want monks with pets out to tower boost and dps the mobs attacking your defenses. Also, as mentioned above, it competes with buff beams, which means it will do nothing even if you have your builders out.


I disagree on the second point as well. Make her Enemy Drain cause increased damage to bosses, and she would immediately become a viable DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...