Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
mayhem_zero

Lightning tower balance discussion

Recommended Posts

For what it's worth I was against CDT doing any game balance at all and just do new content, bug fixes and QOL. But since they are,

I think that LT are OP even when not using them for killing bosses, which I was not aware of was even a thing. The problem is - as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread - that they are filling multiple roles, clearing mobs + doing dps to ogres, djinns, etc (and also bosses apparently). They are better at BOTH things than most other towers that do only one thing. So, CDT, decide what LTs role should be and fix it so it does only that. It's fine if it is the best in the game at one thing, something has to be. Personally I'd say keep its map clearing ability to help speed up maps for those of us who can afford to use them with our high stats on slightly easier maps like tinkers, aka, ww, etc. I'd be in favor of any nerf to the dps these towers do to ogres etc, while keeping it viable for clearing maps of trash, and I'd suggest just a straight damage nerf.


Some numbers:

my harps: 1.74M dps

vs 2 ogres: 3.5M dps

my LT: 0.36M dps

vs 2 ogres: 0.72M

vs 5 ogres: 1.8M

vs 10 ogres: 3.6M


For larger numbers LTs are just as good numerically as harps (arguably, this depends on the setup and how many ogres the harps can hit), with the added advantage of perfect aim and way longer and wall piercing aim; with the disadvantage of higher du and less health. This makes them just plain better in most situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I'd say keep its map clearing ability to help speed up maps for those of us who can afford to use them with our high stats on slightly easier maps like tinkers, aka, ww, etc.

*sniff* *sniff* That does not smell right, especially coming from you, Poet! *sniff* *sniff* LUL

Although on a serious note:

For what it's worth I was against CDT doing any game balance at all and just do new content, bug fixes and QOL.

I'd personally fall into this category 100% had I been around during when CDT was incorporated. And I know plenty of others who have now quit the game due to this very that also fall into this category.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not think LTs should be nerfed, at all.


I think other towers should be buffed to make LTs less OP.


But come on, guys... why are we arguing about Towers doing their jobs in a Tower Defence game? o.O

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that certain defenses have always been better than others, but the gap is quite big atm between lt's and the rest. I can agree with the previous post that maybe some other defenses could use a buff though, instead of nerfing the lt (a lot). Flat damage increase or decrease will not change a lot imo.  

Otherwise it's just the old harpoon and fire tower alongside the lt. If you want to change that I think you better give those unloved towers advantages you cannot get on the often used towers against certain enemy types. Some idea's I could think of are sharken immunity on bouncer blockades, small lightning tower effect on shock beams,MM having a small stun chance on ogres, dst hitting enemies taking aggro in an area around targets they hit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@talantmajr quote:

I do not think LTs should be nerfed, at all.


I think other towers should be buffed to make LTs less OP.


But come on, guys... why are we arguing about Towers doing their jobs in a Tower Defence game? o.O

Can't do that due to power creep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The game is easily do-able with 3k stats and no Apprentice or Countess Towers. Most of my builds consist of Auras, Buff Beams, Minions and the occasional Trap and Reflection beam.

The only times I use LT's are for Survival, Pirate Invasion and WW farming. Survival is quite difficult as ogres start reaching 100 million+ HP. Pirate Invasion is literally impossible as the difficulty progresses every 60 seconds, not giving Minions close to enough time to kill ogres. WW takes a LOT longer if you DPS each boss rather than just throwing down LT's and waiting a minute or 2. I do have a few builds for WW that don't use LT's and only use the above mentioned towers. BUT it does take a lot longer, about 30-35 minutes compared to 22.

Yes LT's are good, but they are usually used with a Tower Booster, buff beam and Guardians. The same combination on DST's, Harpoons and basically any other projectile tower has the same effect. 

If anything, change the way Tower Boosting works. Make damage boosts not stack, so you don't have those groups of 10, 3-4 million DPS LT's annihilating everything on the map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unused tower = power creep... please. They just need to be useful. Proton Beams, Shock Beams, Bouncers, Dark Elf Minions, Jack in the Boxes, and Magic Missiles all suck. This isn't about buffing already powerful towers. People are focused on Gas Traps and Lightning Towers because nothing else competes with them. I'm suggesting that other towers have a niche at high level.

Magic Missile projectile speed is way too slow to make them viable. Their DPS can suck, but they need to compete with Proximity/Gas Traps. Bumpers have no purpose when you have Gas Traps and Minions/walls. Perhaps make them bump ogres every 3rd hit. There should be ways to deal with Djinn other than Gas Traps. This is the main reason Gas Traps are overpowered. You could just make Djinn not eat towers and instead spam gold enemies including ogres. Dark Elf Warriors and Fish/wyvern need a way to deal with them other than Enrage auras. Why not make Shock Beams reliably and permanently stun a certain number of enemies so that they complement Gas Traps for Dark Elves?

Also... why do Deadly Strikers miss Copters 90% of the time on certain levels? Is this related to the Godray thing? I'm talking about Moraggo here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Double Dark quote:

Also... why do Deadly Strikers miss Copters 90% of the time on certain levels? Is this related to the Godray thing? I'm talking about Moraggo here.

I'll have to check on Morrago how much they are missing. The current update did significantly increase their accuracy. Its not hit-scan still and can't customize its targeting priority, but it is pretty good now for what it offers.
Are there any specific places in Morrago you are seeing it miss frequently?
Also just confirming the misses aren't due to the "decoy flares" the copters sends off right? Becasue that's a gameplay mechanic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm cool with the idea of giving bosses a resistance to LT's.  Past that, I'm completely fine with them the way they are.  I'll also add that aside from active forum users, I'd be very surprised if the majority of players want their damage to tweaked.  If there is a criticism I hear fairly regularly, it's that they can be stacked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Black Mamba quote:

@Double Dark quote:

Also... why do Deadly Strikers miss Copters 90% of the time on certain levels? Is this related to the Godray thing? I'm talking about Moraggo here.

I'll have to check on Morrago how much they are missing. The current update did significantly increase their accuracy. Its not hit-scan still and can't customize its targeting priority, but it is pretty good now for what it offers.
Are there any specific places in Morrago you are seeing it miss frequently?
Also just confirming the misses aren't due to the "decoy flares" the copters sends off right? Becasue that's a gameplay mechanic.

I'm talking about the southern copters on Moraggo. They almost never get hit by the DST even when being slowed by auras. The east ones get hit just fine. I have no idea about decoy flares.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I have no idea about decoy flares.

Ok so decoy flares are basically small projectiles the Copter launches both left and right side of it during the time while it is carrying the Ogre payload. Once the payload is delivered/dropped it stops doing that.
Now everytime it launches the Decoy Flares, any tower attacking it will stop attacking the Copters and start aiming for the decoy flares.
This is primarily what used to causes towers like DSTs, Harpoons to miss Copters A LOT. The decoy flare mechanic by itself is a good gameplay design, it should stay as it is.
But coming on to DSTs specifically, their pre-8.3 accuracy for when they were consuming 8 DU and sub-par projectile travel speed made them not as viable against Copters, or on maps like Sky City where enemies are bouncing up and down. They would miss shots which Harpoons and Party Poppers wouldn't. And in only a few specific paths and locations were they worth using.

However in this patch they increased the projectile travel speed and some accuracy tweaks were made as well so it can hit the Copters much accurately now. It will still miss a few times now, but it can land one or two shots and instantly take down the Copter before the Ogre payload is dropped.
I don't play Moraggo much, can you possibly post a DunDefPlanner.com link to your build I'll check it out to see if I can reproduce the misses. In the beta I tested DSTs on quite a few maps extensively. They are definitely so much better than before, I like them more than LTs truth be told.
I just wish they were hit-scan levels of accurate, Deadly Strike Tower, should really be deadly accurate! But despite improvements they still miss quite a few shots on skeletons and spiders that are stuck somewhere which keep jumping frantically, not a big deal-breaker though. I also wish you could customize their targeting priority, that would open up a lot of new and fun ways to approach maps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess this is probably what the Lightning Towers are shooting at that falls from the sky. I thought this was a visual bug of a copter dying with a delayed animation compared to their actual position. I don't farm Moraggo either, but I made a build and realized I should just be farming Ember Sceptres instead.

 http://dundefplanner.com/map.php?load=275

Aim the southern DST however u want. It's currently aiming at everything including stuck enemies. The LTs and Electric Aura take care of the southern copter by themselves, but honestly a DST should be better than an LT for shooting copters when it's got nothing better to shoot at. I considered throwing down archers like I did on the right side until I found a solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just tested the Squire Towers DPS. 

(On Maxed Buff Beam and 3 starred, builder not out)

(ev Stats: 4.1k Damage, 3.5k Rate)

With 4.5k Damge, 4k Rate                        LT's = 325k DPS

With 3.9k Damage, 3.2k Rate         Harpoons = 950k DPS

                                                    Bowling Balls = 1.2mill DPS.


The ONLY reason LT's are considered OP, are the fact that they chain together mobs. But as you can see, they do 1/3 of the DPS to single Targets and are limited to Elemental Damage. LT's are good for Chaining together Ogres and Drawing aggro of Ogres on large maps.

I used to be on the side of "Nerf LT's, they are too OP" but now I'm looking at the statistics, and Harpoons do triple the DPS for 1 less DU and can pierce Enemies, therefore, possibly doing FAR more(than they already do) group DPS than LT's. BBTs don't really have a use, except near pits, rather than Choke Points, they're just there for comparison.


(I'll add more DPS numbers with my own average stats, so it applies to more players)

Huntress: 2.9k Damage, 2.6k Rate. Proximity = 317k DPS

Inferno Trap = 157.5k DPS (< this needs to be Buffed a little. It costs 1 more DU and does half the DPS)


As you can now see, Proximity Mines do the same DPS for less than HALF the DU of an LT. Yet you hear nobody! complaining about them. 


Numbers and Statistics don't lie. Test it yourself if you must

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two extremely important factors that are missing here: range and utility.

LT's on fully upgraded buff beams can reach the corners of literally every map in the game. To test their range and utility, try this:

  1. Place a fully upped/buffed harpoon next to the tavernkeeper.
  2. Go all the way upstairs to the fourth floor and check the DPS on the 6 dummies up there. Should be exactly zero.
  3. Now place a fully upped/buffed explosive trap next to the tavernkeeper.
  4. Go upstairs to the fourth floor and check the DPS on the 6 dummies up there. Should also be exactly zero.
  5. Place a fully upped/buffed lightning tower next to the tavernkeeper.
  6. Go upstairs to the fourth floor and check the DPS on the 6 dummies up there. All 6 dummies should be getting 325k DPS, along with literally every single other dummy in the tavern.

Translating this to any map in-game, lightning towers will outperform harpoons by at least a factor of 10. Addiitonally, LT's don't need to be spread across the map. They can be in a central location, ideal for tower booster monks and apprentice/huntress guardians. When you throw these additional boosts into the mix, you're looking at map-wide DPS where numbers stop mattering since everything pretty much dies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ways IMO, I can see LT's being nerfed. 

- Reduce Max Targets chained

- Reduce Range between Targets

- Change its targeting priorities, give Trash mobs a chance.


- Any major damage/DPS nerfs and people will go back to building all over the map and using harpoons. 

- Any Severe range nerfs, and LT's will be pointless.

- Reducing damage dealt to bosses won't be too bad, as people will likely level up more DPS monks for maps like WW.

- Stopping towers from damaging bosses will make WW very hard and take A LOT longer.(I say 'Towers' because if you just remove LT's from the mix, Harpoons will be the next OP thing to kill bosses, then BBT's, as these have 3x - 4x the Single Target DPS of an LT)


As I've said before, I only use LT's on WW, Survival and PI. They don't speed up the maps by that much, definitely not enough to swap out Aura Stacks, traps and extra Reflects. 9-10 Billion HP is a lot of work to DPS without the assistance of towers on WW. and PI is practically impossible without using an Aggro build(and the tower boosters), as Ogres start reaching 200 mill HP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly enough, LT's range is only out of control when it's on a fully upgraded buff beam; their range is actually quite reasonable on an unupgraded buff beam and/or the LT themselves are fully upped. They can't attack every dummy in the tavern until the buff beam hits 3 stars.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO nerfing LT range wouldn't do too much unless you changed how they chain, unless you nerfed range so hard you destroyed the tower.  Once they chain to a target they keep hitting the target with no range restriction.  The only reason you need range stat on LTs is for the number of chain targets.  Aside from that, they don't need anywhere near as much range as they have to kill effectively.


@Ser Offline-alot quote:PI is practically impossible without using an Aggro build(and the tower boosters), as Ogres start reaching 200 mill HP. 

"Practically impossible" is an overstatement.  You should be able to reach 17 just fine without LTs or tower boost.  Remember, people were farming PI in 8.1 before LTs were buffed . . .


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would the community be willing to consider the following two items separately?

 ① Nerf LTs versus bosses – LTs should not be boss killers

 ② Nerf LTs in general

I have a feeling more people would agree to the former than the latter.  Right now, even though a lot of people agree with a nerf, there's also a lot of resistance to nerfing LTs.  The CDT needs a consensus to rebalance stuff, and I don't really see a consensus here. 

So I'm hoping we can get some more discussion on how and whether we should do ①, since I have a feeling it might be possible to get a consensus on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Plane quote:

Would the community be willing to consider the following two items separately?

 ① Nerf LTs versus bosses – LTs should not be boss killers

 ② Nerf LTs in general

I have a feeling more people would agree to the former than the latter.  Right now, even though a lot of people agree with a nerf, there's also a lot of resistance to nerfing LTs.  The CDT needs a consensus to rebalance stuff, and I don't really see a consensus here. 

So I'm hoping we can get some more discussion on how and whether we should do ①, since I have a feeling it might be possible to get a consensus on that.

I agree with nerfing LTs Against bosses. They shouldnt destroy bosses in less than 1 minute. EDIT:  Maybe LTs Should just do Less dmg over time to bosses, And everytime they reset It starts all over again? Cant  think about anything else rn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even in 8.2(when I restarted) without LTs I've gotten till Wave 16 solo + 2 AFKs.
Even with LTs, its only the early waves(upto 12-14) where they are somewhat useful. After that if you can't roll competently and at the right times, you get wiped out, as simple as that. Even 10 LTs won't be doing much to Ogres getting 500m+ HP and significantly high damage. Heck the Orcs start getting 50m+ by wave 17-19, so the LTs can't kill all of them quick enough anyways.
PI is just based on rolling dmg-all quickly and at the right time to finish off things before it goes haywire. LTs are basically just a nice to have during your roll cooldown for the early waves, beyond that they are actually a liability once the Ninjas start getting 15-20M HP they can take out the LTs in a few hits and that is about game over for your run.

IMO:
- If you nerf range that makes them possibly garbage because they are popular for the fact they can get aggro of non-elemental Ogres from afar. In which case might as well not use the tower and save the DU for DSTs and keep rolling damage all.

- If you nerf damage by even 20%, that still doesn't achieve much becasue for someone with 6-7K+ stats that might just be a slap on the wrist. And for someone with 4K stats they can just bring in boosters and their App builder to mitigate any damage nerf to an extent. So you really didn't achieve much other than making people go boosters, which they already do now on some maps.

- However, if you do reduce their damage done to bosses like Phoenix, Snowmen, Cupids, Turkey(TD), that does force people to tackle bosses themselves instead of sitting on LTs and boosting till whenever.

Reduction of damage done to bosses seems like a pretty good fix to me, all things considered.
- If the tower is supposed to be a Boss Killer then give it a hard nerf bat on range and make it a Boss Killer tower. ( Which is a poor design choice, IMO as DPS characters exist for a reason!)
- If the tower is supposed to be a crowd control and aggro tower, have it do 40-45% less dmg to Bosses, or heck even 80% less damage to Bosses for all I care.

I mean, you can't kill the Goblin Airship with LTs. Can't kill Old One with LTs. Can't kill Poly Phase 3 bosses with LTs. And these 3 maps have some of the best weapons in game. Even in Akatiti I've not seen the LTs attacking the Goblin Mech. Can't kill Kraken with LTs. Additionally you can't kill Golden Demon Lord with LTs, or at least as much I've played Palantir, I've never seen LTs chaining on the Demon Lord.

The real issue is in WW, ToL and to an extent Embermount.
Seems clear to me what should be "fixed/nerfed" and what shouldn't.

Edit: Since I already suggested for a [significant] reduction in their damage done to Bosses here -- https://dungeondefenders.com/1/topic/152573/?scrollTo=1309793&page=3
That's where my vote goes, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Plane quote:

"Practically impossible" is an overstatement.  You should be able to reach 17 just fine without LTs or tower boost.  Remember, people were farming PI in 8.1 before LTs were buffed . . .

I guess some people can reach wave 17 without LT's or t-boosting. but for the Majority of the player-base, reaching upwards of wave 9, would be very very challenging. Personally, I can only just reach wave 14, then the difficulty goes up and I don't have quite enough FPS to roll reliably.(fix the ogre Tessalation? read recently about ogres not being fully optimised, as when they were created, NM survival wasn't in mind)

@Plane quote:

 ① Nerf LTs versus bosses – LTs should not be boss killers

① is a good option. 

But, too severe of a nerf will just get people going to Harpoons/BBTs. So I want to say, "ALL towers shouldn't be able to damage bosses" but then I'm thinking about those coal runs I do now, and what that would be like without tower DPS. More thought on it later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but then I'm thinking about those coal runs I do now, and what that would be like without tower DPS. 

About +5 mins max on your current runs.
Or even less if you build a EV DPS with even a 90K Ember Sceptre.

I don't have quite enough FPS to roll reliably.(fix the ogre Tessalation? read recently about ogres not being fully optimised, as when they were created, NM survival wasn't in mind)

I suffer with this issue myself.
Reason why I can't farm Mega Chickens becasue the map goes down below 7-8FPS during combat wave. Can't roll properly no matter how good you are in general with that low FPS! kobold.png

I dunno what its with the map having mini Ogres -- before 8.3 ToL would lag hardcore for me < 14 FPS even with 2 players. Now I get 20-25 with 4 players. And that map also has a ton of Ogres, a ton too many infact LOL. But it feels smooth as hell how.
Moonbase survivial non-MM +4 Player about 4-5 FPS, has mini-ogres.
Moonbase survivial MM +4 Player about 14-25 FPS, doesn't have mini-ogres.
Its just weird, and that's on a GTX970, not even close to a potato! xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Black Mamba quote:before 8.3 ToL would lag hardcore for me < 14 FPS even with 2 players. Now I get 20-25 with 4 players. And that map also has a ton of Ogres, a ton too many infact LOL. But it feels smooth as hell how.

I worked on ToL FPS specifically to try to get it ready for this patch.  I'm hoping to make FPS and network lag improvements in this patch if I can manage it, but that'll depend on how the testing goes.  I'm hoping we can improve TL, ToW, and the tavern performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Plane quote:


 I'm hoping we can improve TL, ToW, and the tavern performance.

I didn't realise ToW had a performance issue. I've played a bit of the survival, only up to wave 23 though, and wasn't getting any lag, just the usual 25-45FPS. 

Is it really bad past that?


edit: Lag as in, so little FPS you can't roll properlly, like on PI, TL and MB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ser Offline-alot quote:I didn't realise ToW had a performance issue. I've played a bit of the survival, only up to wave 23 though, and wasn't getting any lag, just the usual 25-45FPS. 

Is it really bad past that?

Yes.  It depends on your hardware.  It runs fine for me, but some people have terrible FPS whenever they're looking at the water effects.  What I've asked for is a way to disable water effects, or for water effects to be automatically disabled with low graphics settings.  Alhanalem is also going to see if the map can be optimized in any other ways.


@Ser Offline-alot quote:edit: Lag as in, so little FPS you can't roll properlly, like on PI, TL and MB.

I avoid using the term 'lag' to refer to low FPS, but I understood what you meant.  Unfortunately, the two are related in non-obvious ways in DD (engine problems), so it's difficult for me to talk about one without mentioning the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...