Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
mayhem_zero

Lightning tower balance discussion

Recommended Posts

I agree that LTs are very powerful but I think nerfing a 7 DU tower's damage or range is not the answer. I'm against a nerf since it requires 2 stats pretty high and moderate in a third to be overpowered but I would like to see it become more like an inverse of the cannonball tower: effective against levels where enemies are all around you but NOT AS EFECTIVE against enemies who are confined in smaller spaces.

For a "Rebalance" I would love to see the damage reduced per jump as suggested before, but an increase in the amount of enemies targeted to spread out the damage rather than just removing it. Something like this:

Target 1: 100% damage

Target 2 & 3: 75% damage

Target 4, 5, 6, 7: 50% damage, etc but on a much larger scale.

                                    1

                                /        \

                            2               3

                          /   \              /   \

                        4     5          6      7

Basically making it more of a "Chain Lightning" rather than a thunderbolt tower. As an ogre aggro tool I think it'll still work but i'm not too sure on how the specifics of that mechanic work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've believed that Lightning Towers needed a nerf ever since the apprentace buff. I feel that they were made way too strong. However before I get into my opinion I'd like to share some data. People have some questions about LT scalings and some are saying that you need huge stats to make LT builds reasonable. You can look at the graphs yourself here and the raw data here (note that this data is collected without a buff beam so in the real world the stats would be even higher). 

As you can see you get get very op lightning towers with reasonable stats. The argument that "they are only op with insane stats" is just wrong. As far as my opinions on how to balance the tower while still keeping it relevent; I think a damage nerf of some sort should be applied. The scaling on this tower is disgusting. It just doesn't fall off compared to other towers. I don't think the chain mechanics should be changed. They are the reason that this tower has become popular; it is a great waveclear tower. I love the idea of using LTs to cut down small monsters to increase the spawn rates. I think it is an excelent way to speed up builds. However, it just shouldn't be an ogre killer. The reason it is so strong right now is that it is amazing wave clear and it also kills everything. Place down 5 LTs and you will kill everything. Tower boost that and it kills bosses. They are too powerful. I mean they do ~5x the damage of a lightning aura for 2DU more. That is disgusting. 

The post mambo brought up about damage falling off based on distance from the tower is also an idea I can get behind. I can also get behind fixed chain lengths based on tower level. I think that could be good if it doesn't hard cut the chain number.


@Black Mamba quote:

This would essentially mean a wastage of time and more importantly a wastage of lot of in-game currently for people like me who have spent time and money trying to get good 4 stat tower pieces for our Apprentice builders. And I know a few people who have bought a lot of high value Ult++ gear simply becasue it had 4 tower stats with good range and rate sides. So from me -- it's a big no as far as reducing chain length and hard-capping range is concerned.

Seriously you wanna veto the chain length/rage discussion because you are financially invested in keeping a 4 stat builder. Trump, is that you? lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously you wanna veto the chain length/rage discussion because you are financially invested in keeping a 4 stat builder. Trump, is that you? lol

WTF LOL? Of course I will be against any sort of range stat hard cap. I f**king spent time trying to farm items so I can get my range stat high enough. Who gives anyone a right to hard cap things which renders someone else's effort useless?
Is this a joke? Has to be a joke right? Can't be serious if you are trying to put hard caps on hero/tower stats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

m8 your range stat won't be useless. Furthermore, the chain length tether (what gigazelle suggested nerfing) isn't affected by the range stat to begin with. The only parts of the tower affected by your range stat won't be changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Caimen0 quote:

m8 your range stat won't be useless. Furthermore, the chain length tether (what gigazelle suggested nerfing) isn't affected by the range stat to begin with. The only parts of the tower affected by your range stat won't be changed.

Right now chain length does scale with range. Scaling is here. Unless I read that wrong. Pretty sure 75 range units at 10,000 tower radius won't cover a map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think that the LT is currently OP. But lets see where we are at with the other towers and how the LT fits in.

We have low DU towers that deal reliable AOE dmg and can kill any trash (traps/electric aura).

We have high dps per DU "single lane" towers (harps/fireball....)

We have walls.

And we have some other "niche" towers


When the LT had low dmg it could not compete with other AOE towers because a single LT was too unreliable to clear all the trash on the map and multiple LTs just cost too much DU so there is not enough left for DPS towers. Now the dmg was increased to a point where LTs can actually function as DPS towers. And since they attack the whole map they surpass normal DPS towers where we have a lot of lanes to cover. Now that the LT is a viable DPS tower nothing stops us from just using a lot of LTs which do both jobs, DPS and AOE and that is a problem.

Personally I think the LT should not be able to compete with FireTowers/Harps when it comes to killing ogers. However if it is not viable as a DPS turret we come back to the problem that other AOE towers are simply more reliable and apart from a slight speed increase because of the higher range you do not benefit from an LT at all.

Therefore I suggest a change such that we can keep the LT a viable Tower but remove the ability to use only LTs by making them less effective the more LTs attack the same target. Something like every aditional LT attacking the same Monster makes the Monster take 10% less dmg.


For example:

1LT -> 500k DPS

2LT -> 500k * 2 * 0.9 = 900k DPS

3LT -> 500k * 3 * 0.9^2 = 1215k DPS

4LT -> 500k * 4 * 0.9^3 = 1458k DPS

The 10% is just an example, it could also be 15 or anything reasonable. But you can clearly see how this makes stacking only LTs much less powerfull. While you can still use a single LT to attract ogers or kill trash on the whole map.


TLDR: I suggest to make multiple LTs less efficient but keeping a single LT untouched.



EDIT: The dmg decrease should only count for LTs. All the other towers deal normal dmg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading martiman's idea gave me an idea. This is probably going to be super unpopular but I had the idea of like a damage fall off, kinda like an anti-harbinger. The longer a lightning tower hits a target the less damage it does to it. This would allow the tower to still be the amazing waveclear towers we love them to be but not the ogre killers/boss killers they are now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to resurface this thread based on some conversations I've had over the last couple weeks.

One proposal that I really like is to change a single thing: multiple lightning towers can't hit the same target.

This preserves its excellent utility of map-wide crowd control and ogre aggro, while resolving its overpowered ability to melt ogres and bosses. Additionally, it makes tower stacking much more situational, since lightning tower stacking is the most common use of the exploit.

Having a couple lightning towers would definitely be a boon to a build, but it would no longer be effective to fill all your DU with lightning towers.

Your thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

I wanted to resurface this thread based on some conversations I've had over the last couple weeks.

One proposal that I really like is to change a single thing: multiple lightning towers can't hit the same target.

This preserves its excellent utility of map-wide crowd control and ogre aggro, while resolving its overpowered ability to melt ogres and bosses. Additionally, it makes tower stacking much more situational, since lightning tower stacking is the most common use of the exploit.

Having a couple lightning towers would definitely be a boon to a build, but it would no longer be effective to fill all your DU with lightning towers.

Your thoughts?

I think we would run into an issue of LTs simple replacing trash clearing towers like electric, explosive, inferno. All anyone would need after that is some darkness traps at the gates, and a wall off to protect your LTs under some str drains. If this isn't the case, and they become useless from this change, we're back to using harpoons all the time. I think the best course of action would be to reduce their damage scaling by about 20%, and each time a Lightning tower chains to a new target, reduce the next chain by 10% of the previous. These numbers are simply placeholders, I would like to see other towers giving similar or better clear times in their most optimal situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, or how about just not having LTs deal 100% damage to bosses, and do like 45% instead?
Problem solved. Realistically speaking who cares about trash mobs anyways once you're over 3k stats? You're saving about 30-70secs by LTs wiping things in one go. Its not a competitive game, and if someone is killing trash mobs faster than you then it shouldn't be an issue. 
Moreover, ogres you can already clean off with rolls and DPS chars. And Harbingers are unaffected by Lightning damage.
The real issue is in maps like WW, ToL and Embermount that it just melt bosses with boosts and builder bonuses. Which I do agree to a point is dumb. So I'd rather have them do 45-40% less damage to Bosses. Numbers are just placeholder, but half damage would at least mean you'd have to actually DPS out things you are supposed to DPS out.
People are over-thinking about this way too much. You'll end up ruining it with unnecessary tweaks and nerfs and then we are back to square one. 
Almost everyone I've talked to thinks LTs shouldn't be Boss killers. So a simple damage reduction for LTs when they hit bosses would solve the apparent feeling that they are "OP". Just identify the real issue, which IMO is them melting Bosses. 

And funnily enough by the time any such fix is applied, most people would've already used LTs melting cupids and Snowmen and farmed gear. So again just the newcomers get punished! Classic elitism in DD -- change it first then when everyone has benefited it hit the nerf bat! :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

Classic elitism in DD -- change it first then when everyone has benefited it hit the nerf bat! :D

That's not elitism, that's called balancing the game. Is Riot Games or Valve elitist by nerfing characters in a competitive game after the opportunists have already abused the broken characters for mmr boosts? No, it's called game balance.

Is Gearbox being elitist when they remove the Bee Shield effects on listed pellets so that new players have a harder time farming bosses for gear, after the current playerbase has already abused the mechanic?  No, it's called game balance.

If the intention for Lightning Towers was to have them not be the single most effective map clearing tower in the game, and people want it to take more skill than "stack 6 LTs on a buff beam and press G" to beat ToL, that is called, once again, game balance.

Take your "elitism" accusations elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't need LT's to do any map, personally, I'm not even using them in any of my Campaign builds, except when farming WW, but that's just to speed things up, and I am getting around the same times as usual, I'm using the extra DU to build closer to spawn gates. But on survivals such as Moon base Single core, not using LT's would be impossible, or damn close to impossible.

If we nerf LT's, another thing will be nerfed. because currently the next "OP" tower isn't being used. Balancing/Buffing/Changing other towers could be a more viable option. Minions especially, nobody uses DEW's, a few people use Orcs and more people use Ogres as the ogre is just fun to use sometimes. Inferno Traps aren't useful and EST's seem to be outmatched by Proximity Mines.

Dedicated Tower Changes thread anyone?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Caimen0 quote:
That's not elitism, that's called balancing the game. Is Riot Games or Valve elitist by nerfing characters in a competitive game after the opportunists have already abused the broken characters for mmr boosts? No, it's called game balance. 

Is Gearbox being elitist when they remove the Bee Shield effects on listed pellets so that new players have a harder time farming bosses for gear,
after the current playerbase has already abused the mechanic?  No, it's called game balance.

If the intention for Lightning Towers was to have them not be the single most effective map clearing tower in the game, and people want it to take more skill than "stack 6 LTs on a buff beam and press G" to beat ToL, that is called, once again,
game balance.

Take your "elitism" accusations elsewhere.

Except you are forgetting the KEY POINT is that Riot, Gearbox and Valve are not controlled by COMMUNITY MEMBERS who drive and develop ALL of the game changes and content. Do you really want me to explain it out to you? LUL If Trendy so desired to nerf LTs, I wouldn't give a rat's ass. They have nerfed plenty of things in the past on their own volition, it's their game, they can do whatever the f**k they want to. It's not CDT's or "Friend's of CDT's" game! LUL
So let's be real, just like the real elitism in this game. You are also telling me that LTs being OP wasn't caught during whenever its beta phase was being tested? Yeah right. LUL LUL LUL LUL LUL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The motivation behind nerfing the towers is not "new players are able to do too much with these towers, they must be nerfed!!!!1!!1!"

The motivation is "At endgame, Lightning towers are able to kill the ToL and WW bosses while you sit afk for 3/4 of the map. This is dumb, let's fix it."

Therefore this is not elitism, rather a discussion on how endgame balance should play out.

Your entire diatribe is a red herring. Argument dismissed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Argument dismissed without even reading one's post? Very poor, Caimen.
Read what I wrote, maybe read twice:

The real issue is in maps like WW, ToL and Embermount that it just melt bosses with boosts and builder bonuses. Which I do agree to a point is dumb. So I'd rather have them do 45-40% less damage to Bosses. Numbers are just placeholder, but half damage would at least mean you'd have to actually DPS out things you are supposed to DPS out.

I'M LITERALLY SUGGESTING TO FIX IT, at least in "somewhat" reasonable way rather than putting a daft nerf bat on it.
Also where was this discussion when the LTs were JUST THE SAME as they are right now during whenever it's testing beta period was?
Let' see -- WW is not a new map. ToL is not a new map. Guardians are not new. Monk Tower Boost is not new. Having builders as AFK chars for builder bonus is not new. So you telling me ONLY NOW people find LTs OP? Like seriously? So then who really pushed for LTs to even get buffed in the 1st place? LMFAO dude... don't... just stop already!
Or maybe its a recurring theme with the current DD community that beta feedback isn't paid attention to, and people realize something is bad when the update is live. The New Tavern post-release thread you posted is a PRIME example of this. I kept shouting at the top of my lungs saying the tavern has issues. But I got told -- don't use it if you don't want, its fine for me so it must be fine for you, and what not. Now look at that thread again and compare to feedback which was given about the Tavern. LOL!

So maybe indeed I need to go deep in the forum rabbit-hole to find pre-LT and beta-LT buff threads and whatnot to see whether people provided feedback for this or not.

Also I like how you took the "elitism" remark so personally, like what even?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
my main thing which I do like about current Lightning towers, is their ability to aggro ogres and bosses to them.  This is a great utility for the tower to have and I think it should be preserved, but their damage is simply too high. A much more healthier type of gameplay would incorporate the use of other damage towers in combination with the lightning for maximum efficiency. I'm for reducing the damage, and maybe even a DU increase of 1-2. What could be done to ensure the leashing sticks around?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 DU Increase seems reasonable to me. Its a high DPS tower(currently), it should cost more DU.
I'm for reducing damage dealt to bosses, not a flat damage reduction though.
Towers should not be doing more DPS to bosses than players, becasue then what's even the point of having a DPS character.

Also everyone still keeps saying their DMG is too high, but I'm yet to see someone kill Phoenixes with just LTs at 2K Stats. Show me that and I'll support whatever nerf suggestion you come up with! If you're complaining about damage being too high, maybe don't use gear which gets you 6k+ stats. No? xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Black Mamba quote:

1 DU Increase seems reasonable to me. Its a high DPS tower(currently), it should cost more DU.
I'm for reducing damage dealt to bosses, not a flat damage reduction though.
Towers should not be doing more DPS to bosses than players, becasue then what's even the point of having a DPS character.

Also everyone still keeps saying their DMG is too high, but I'm yet to see someone kill Phoenixes with just LTs at 2K Stats. Show me that and I'll support whatever nerf suggestion you come up with! If you're complaining about damage being too high, maybe don't use gear which gets you 6k+ stats. No? xD

a DU increase is essentially a flat damage reduction already, the fact that I can sit in phase shift on a summoner and just repair to kill the phoenix should say something, and that's without 6k+ stats, I'm sure if someone cared enough they could do it with 2k stats. The fact that it's the most efficient damage tower, and most people won't or don't need to use anything else should tell you something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using LTs only? Or you use other towers / traps and minions elsewhere to hold mobs.
Show me using LTs only if they are so OP. Literally anyone can use Minions and traps to create choke points and have their LTs focus on bosses. At that point you are relying on other towers to do their things so the LT can do its thing. So that sounds so wrong -- bunch of towers working in tandem and complimenting each other.
Show me it being done with just pure LT Op-ness, no aggro traps, bridge path glitches, minion walls/blocks. Do it with 3K Stats, forget 2K. I'll support any damn damage reduction proposed, heck I'd support removal of LTs from the game, not even kidding with this!

Until then my stand is firm -- they shouldn't be melting "most" bosses, hence their damage dealt to "bosses" needs to be reduced by half or more.
I don't give a crap about trash mobs. Ogres are trash mobs on almost all campaign maps with 5/6k+ stats. Bring in another Wheel jester and roll DMG All at a Ogre rush and you'll not need anything else. So Wheel OP. Nerf Wheel? :D

The fact that it's the most efficient damage tower, and most people won't or don't need to use anything else should tell you something.

The fact that I play ToL, WW, Akatiti, etc. the old-school way until someone actually requests me to build using LTs is fact that not using LTs if you think they are OP is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL! Who would've thought you are totally allowed to not use something if you don't feel like using it in this game! DAMN!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Black Mamba quote:

Using LTs only? Or you use other towers / traps and minions elsewhere to hold mobs.
Show me using LTs only if they are so OP. Literally anyone can use Minions and traps to create choke points and have their LTs focus on bosses. At that point you are relying on other towers to do their things so the LT can do its thing. So that sounds so wrong -- bunch of towers working in tandem and complimenting each other.
Show me it being done with just pure LT Op-ness, no aggro traps, bridge path glitches, minion walls/blocks. Do it with 3K Stats, forget 2K. I'll support any damn damage reduction proposed, heck I'd support removal of LTs from the game, not even kidding with this!

Until then my stand is firm -- they shouldn't be melting "most" bosses, hence their damage dealt to "bosses" needs to be reduced by half or more.
I don't give a crap about trash mobs. Ogres are trash mobs on almost all campaign maps with 5/6k+ stats. Bring in another Wheel jester and roll DMG All at a Ogre rush and you'll not need anything else. So Wheel OP. Nerf Wheel? :D

The fact that it's the most efficient damage tower, and most people won't or don't need to use anything else should tell you something.

The fact that I play ToL, WW, Akatiti, etc. the old-school way until someone actually requests me to build using LTs is fact that not using LTs if you think they are OP is ENTIRELY OPTIONAL! Who would've thought you are totally allowed to not use something if you don't feel like using it in this game! DAMN!

I agree with the idea that LT dmg should be nerfed against bosses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if we make it so LTs can't target bosses at all, the problem persists that you have no real reason to build another type of damage tower. They deal with ogres, djinns, and sharken too well, further reducing the need for towers such as traps or ensnare auras in some cases. They reduce map pressure too much, and make the game substantially easier as a result.

"Show me it being done with just pure LT Op-ness, no aggro traps, bridge path glitches, minion walls/blocks. Do it with 3K Stats, forget 2K. I'll support any damn damage reduction proposed, heck I'd support removal of LTs from the game, not even kidding with this!"

No one needs your support to go ahead with these changes, and neither will it impact the outcome of the nerf we all know is coming. I guess if I put as much time and money into my adapt as you have, I wouldn't be as objective about it either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1Du increase is not a bad idea at all honestly. I'm not sure a dmg reduction to bosses would still be required with such a change. But I do agree that bosses should be dealt with characters, not towers. Why are they affected by towers in the first place ?

*No one needs your support to go ahead with these changes, and neither will it impact the outcome of the nerf we all know is coming.*

It's supposed to be community approved so his opinion counts. Don't talk like that please. The way you worded it lets us think nobody has a say in it which is false. The nerf is going to happen because we all aknowledge it is required, not because the CDT figured it was required and will force it down our throats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you're going to "fix" the LT problem without creating other issues. You're going to have to change the way the tower works or nerf it to oblivion if you want to solve the problem. For example, maybe it could hit one target and do a small AOE around that target. A better solution that doesn't change the feel of LTs would be to make it only hit 3 targets and attack very slowly (every 3 seconds) but hit much harder.

LTs tend to target the biggest enemies and definitely don't replace Proximity Traps, Gas Traps, and Electric Auras for general AOE. Making LTs unable to target the same enemy would be a buff as it would ensure ALL Ogres are aggroed and the little enemies would be cleared out faster. It might cut back on stacking LTs all in the same spot, though, and make other towers like Harpoons good fillers. Basically, it would make things easier.

If you're going to increase the DU cost of LTs by 1 then you should probably reduce the cost of Deadly Strikers by 1. This still doesn't fix the LT problem, which is a mechanics issue.

Preventing LTs from hitting bosses is a good idea, but the difficult Nightmare Bosses require a good DPS anyway so it won't change anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if we make it so LTs can't target bosses at all, the problem persists that you have no real reason to build another type of damage tower. 

I don't understand what is your fixation with this demonstrably wrong statement. I literally mentioned I don't use LTs on most maps unless someone asks it to be used. For solo ToL play I still use my old school build, neither have I felt the urge to use LTs on WWL. Heck, I have about as much reason to use Party Poppers and DSTs as LTs on maps that I play. The only map where I actually genuinely only use LTs is Pirate Invasion primarily due to its aggro-drawing nature.
I use them on Moonbase public runs becasue I'm tired of people standing on the crystal and going AFK with their DPS pet. And I use them on Sky City becasue of how the map aggro itself works and its Fun to see Ogres getting sliced to shreds by my Slicer-Dicer towers while they try reach to reach my LTs, and since the aggro-ing nature of LTs wonderfully compliments another tower which no one seemingly uses it makes for a fun and unique build.

Look again -- if your complaint is that mobs are dying faster at 6K+ so it should be nerfed, then you don't still realize the actual issue. Which is, and let me re-iterate becasue you don't seem to be understanding and/or reading what I'm saying -- the issue is -- THEY ARE MELTING CERTAIN BOSSES, which makes certain things ridiculously easier when they should not be.
Having the towers not damage Bosses or do half damage would then actually force people to go for DPS chars, again.
The mobs dying quickly is honestly a non-issue becasue mobs turn to being somewhat of a threat to a non-issue themselves once you're past 2-3K stats. I mean Crystalline Dimension can be be done with 1K stats and some skills. So let's not even get started there about mobs dying faster.

They reduce map pressure too much, and make the game substantially easier as a result. 

A Proxy + Gas Trap combo does that as well, and much faster than LTs because it activates at spawn. We should definitely nerf those too. Can't have towers that reduce "pressure too much" from maps, something which certain towers are actually supposed to do in a tower defense game! Wowee!

No one needs your support to go ahead with these changes, and neither will it impact the outcome of the nerf we all know is coming.

Hahahahaha, where do I even begin? I dunno... cool. I guess?
Also what is the outcome? Nothing seems to be decided yet, at least here. Unless you have some juicy insider info like a few others that are part of the special groups? :D Maybe spill out the beans and save our time as well.
And there is obviously a very fractured mandate here as far as a flat nerf on LTs is considered. Certain tweaks such reducing damage on bosses(I'd say as much to disabling it completely) increasing DU seems to be decent enough.

Also I'm looking at it fairly objectively, otherwise I wouldn't be suggesting to reduce their damage dealt on Bosses, nor would I be in support of a DU increase.
___________________________

@DoubleDark

Preventing LTs from hitting bosses is a good idea, but the difficult Nightmare Bosses require a good DPS anyway so it won't change anything.

Well, that is a wee bit wrong.
It will very much change how people approach ToL, WW, etc. See right now you can just bring in your Apprentice/Adept builder, a tower boost monk, a summoner and another builder and sit somewhere safe and keep boosting until Bosses die.
Having LTs deal low damage to bosses or none at all would actually mean people would have to bring in DPS to deal with them, again. It definitely changes this.
For instance WW Bosses are by no means considered "easy", especially now that the despawning bug for Evil Heroes seems to be fixed. So it definitely changes more than a few things!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...