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mayhem_zero

Lightning tower balance discussion

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Starting a separate thread for this as suggested by Gigazelle.

I'm not sure exactly what change or changes would be the best but I think maybe reducing the max chain length or duration would be a good thing to try, perhaps by 15 to 20%.

Any other ideas appreciated.

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I personaly totaly disagree with a Lightning Tower nerf, simply because You dont have to use them if you dont like them, this is no competetive game at all and you can use whatever defenses you would like to use. doesnt matter which map. theyre all doable without lightning towers they will just take a bit longer which is totaly fine for all casual players since its a casual game

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I Agree they do alot of dmg and are OP for sure but you dont have to use them minions work fine aswell. they literally can hold forever if you have a good build with them.

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I agree that Lightning towers should be nerfed, but I believe there are better, more interesting ways to go about it than a flat damage reduction. The reason Lightning towers are so effective is that they can chain across the map, and once they begin hitting a target, stay on it until it dies. I think the best change is to create a maximum distance that the chain can reach independent of the number of targets it can chain to. This way, you are no longer wiping out entire lanes from a single initial chain.

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Let's first properly determine whether you can clear out end game maps(Ember, ToW, WW, Akatiti, etc.) by steamrolling over them using 1 or 2 LTs, or you require 4-5+ for it to be doable with high stats 5k+? Steam rolling with 1 or 2 LTs will be the definition of OP.
I definitely require 4-5+ if I'm to use them in a map. I'm yet to see single proper functioning perfect LT-only build(no crystal damage / tower destructions) where you can steamroll on maps using just LTs, like in Aquanos, Buc Bay, Moonbase(not a perfect build), etc.

Even on my own Sky City SnD + LT build I have to rely on other towers like SnD, or a Minion Wall to prevent them from getting gobsmacked in a few hits. On Akatiti I have to rely on Physical Beams to keep LTs safe from Ogre swings. LTs doing loads of damage can be argued with Harpoons doing loads or damage as well, or Party Poppers.
So what that tells me is that for a bunch of LTs to appear OP, I have to rely on other Towers/Minions as well so that they are blocking Ogres from hitting them. To me that sounds like a wonderful symphony of other Towers/Minions working in tandem with LT to get you a good build. I don't see anything wrong in it. If anything, having usable LTs has brought a lot of variety into how you approach certain maps.

EIther way, there was a discussion about it in late 2016.
My stance is still the same as I mentioned on the thread, if it is to be rebalanced(YET AGAIN), then:

One solution to balance it out is to mitigate the damage dealt by LTs to the end of the chain, kinda like proxy traps. So the farther an enemy is away from the LT source, the less damage it does.

About DU increase, its already 7 DU and costs 120 Mana to build. Which makes it the only physical tower other than DST(and perhaps Harpoon/Party Popper) where the DU and Mana cost is justified.

Alternately :
instead of nerfing/fixing LTs, maybe make towers from Squire or heck even those two EV beams more attractive to use.
I mean I'm from the era of this game where during a long period of time -- there were next to zero apprentice towers being used in NM games, thanks to Trendy constantly dilly-dallying around and nerfing / buffing things. Which led to Squire towers being meta for years, or until whenever LTs and other towers were buffed/rebalanced. So seeing the resurgence of Apprentice towers again is definitely refreshing.

So right now if LTs make a few maps more easier than they already are I don't see the problem in it.
Like Travence said... don't use it if you don't have to. This is not a competitive game. Therefore some bloke using LTs in his own private game has no effect on anyone else. It's not like you get better drops if you are using LTs.

TL;DR:
I'm against a flat damage reduction, a DU increase or a cap on max chain length / targets.
I'm for damage mitigated based on target's position in the LT chain queue or as I mentioned in the other thread -- distance from source.
So the last mob takes somewhat less damage than the 1st mob in the chain, and by the time it reaches your build area the LTs still have aggro on it all throughout.

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I am in favor of drastically shortening the chain length between targets, perhaps making it static and unable to be upped with the range stat. Additionally, if the chain kills an enemy and the gap becomes too big, the chain would break until targets become close enough to chain to. This is different than [[70358,users]]'s suggestion, which is to limit maximum operating range, whereas mine is to limit distance between chains of individual enemies.

I've been in multiple games where I can trace the lightning arc to the edge of a map and back, making crazy zigzag patterns that make no sense. I think damage output is good for its DU.

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I am in favor of drastically shortening the chain length between targets, perhaps making it static and unable to be upped with the range stat.

This would essentially mean a wastage of time and more importantly a wastage of lot of in-game currently for people like me who have spent time and money trying to get good 4 stat tower pieces for our Apprentice builders. And I know a few people who have bought a lot of high value Ult++ gear simply becasue it had 4 tower stats with good range and rate sides. So from me -- it's a big no as far as reducing chain length and hard-capping range is concerned.

______________________________________________

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the LTs buffed during CDT Update 2? And if so, and this is in 2016, so are they OP/good only now? Or they have been so since the Update 2 beta? In which case, no one noticed? Or if they noticed, wasn't it the community decision then to have it buffed? So in between Update 2(Embermount) and Update 3(ToW, ToP) what really has changed?

Its OP in maps that were fairly easy to begin with. Or it appears OP if you use alongside other Towers and Minions as a blockade, which is essentially a clever build strategy leveraging how Ogre Aggro works, or in case of Sky City how map aggro works.

I mean if the rationale is to nerf them based on maps like Tavern Defense, Aquanos, Moonbase, Buc Bay, Mistymire, etc. while having 4k+ Stats, then I'm sorry this is not how things are to be tested or determined whether they should be nerfed! Someone show me a legit OP LT non-try-hard build(using App LTs) in an end-game map both campaign or Survival -- (Embermount, ToW, Akatiti, WW) where that is your primary tower and doesn't require any blockades, map limitations (Embermount) etc., I'll be convinced and support you & whatever is your nerf suggestion! :-D

One more thing I'd like to add is that -- survivals are now somewhat fun thanks to LTs. You nerf them and make survivals take even longer than they currently do and you drive people back to Lab Assault as a side-effect. So think about that aspect as well.

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@Black Mamba quote:

This would essentially mean a wastage of time and more importantly a wastage of lot of in-game currently for people like me who have spent time and money trying to get good 4 stat tower pieces for our Apprentice builders. 

I think you're misreading Gigazelle's suggestion. The idea is that the Trange stat would still increase the range at which the LT can acquire targets, but the length of inter-target chaining would be unaffected by the stat.

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No I'm reading it right, inter-mob chain length is what makes LTs fun to use right now -- becasue when it triggers and goes though all the mobs in a lane and gets the aggro of the Ogre, then despite other trash mobs dying it still keeps the aggro on the Ogre by constantly hitting it. However if you increase the distance of the chain length between mobs, and make it break based on that -- that would mean it stops attacking the Ogre and the Ogre gets its aggro reset or changed to some other target(or even a Crystal), that would mostly ruin aggro builds. Therefore no to any sort of range nerf that can potentially affect aggro.

End-game Ogres don't melt at spawn anyways. Even in Embermount it takes a while for them to get killed while relying on LT builds, campaign or survival. Same for ToW and similar maps or survivals.

All it does is grab aggro from Ogres across the map, which itself doesn't necessarily work 100% of the time, as in the case of Pirate Invasion, Embermount(if you have low stats) etc. there is always a chance that the elemental immune Ogre rushing straight to the crystal(happened plenty of time with me despite 5-6K stats). 

All things considered I think LTs are fine as it is, primarily the lack of any other half decent tower makes them look more OP than they actually are. Make Squire towers better to provide more variety in builds.

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Inter-mob chain length is not what makes LT's fun to use, its the damage they do when in large numbers. The inter-mob chain length is ridiculous and works through walls. It's one of the many extraneous factors that let LTs do far too much on the map that no other tower is capable of doing.



@Black Mamba quote: Someone show me a legit OP LT non-try-hard build(using App LTs) in an end-game map both campaign or Survival -- (Embermount, ToW, Akatiti, WW) where that is your primary tower and doesn't require any blockades, map limitations (Embermount) etc., I'll be convinced and support you & whatever is your nerf suggestion!

Here you go...



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2k stats? or 6k stats?

Edit NVM lol, your video description itself says -- 

"You're going to need some good stats on your apprentice for this one."

So, no, not convincing enough. Also TL campaign is an end game map since when?
Just for the sake of it, Atherial has a build using only ESTs on TL. So... we should nerf ESTs as well? LOL.

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I don't think LT's need to be nerfed, if you think they are op don't use them. It's just faster when you are using them. LT's aren't good on their own you need a waller or minions to block ogres on some high end maps because they have such low health.

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I don't think LT's should be nerfed. How is anyone without 7k+ stats on multiple builders suppose to run maps such as moonbase NMHC survival 1 core with only summoners in, embermount survival, or NM chicken runs without lightning towers.

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@Dark Dragon quote:

I don't think LT's should be nerfed. How is anyone without 7k+ stats on multiple builders suppose to run maps such as moonbase NMHC survival 1 core with only summoners in, embermount survival, or NM chicken runs without lightning towers.

Who says that people mustt be able to run these survivals with certain stats or with only summoners? No one is saying that LTs need to become useless again, simply not as OP as they currently are.


@OreoDayz quote:

I don't think LT's need to be nerfed, if you think they are op don't use them. It's just faster when you are using them. LT's aren't good on their own you need a waller or minions to block ogres on some high end maps because they have such low health.

I don't use LTs on every map, but not because they are OP. I simply like to have some variety. The fact remains that they are OP and that is why they should be balanced.

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Personally, if I have high stats, why shouldn't I be able to get a ton of reward out of putting so much effort into my apprentice? If I was forced to just use minions for most maps, and use the same builds people with lower stats use, then it would feel as if I haven't even progressed at all. That isn't to say I couldn't just use harpoons, but I feel as if higher stats should equal less overall effort on maps.

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I agree that lightning towers are OP and require a nerf at this point.  The biggest issue is their range - by chaining, they can reach across the entire map doing AoE damage.  Their chain limit isn't that big of a limit, considering their buffed damage as well.  Breaking the chain if mobs in-between die and the chain range gets exceeded seems like the most reasonable/'logical' fix to me, although that would probably be too harsh of a nerf.

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There was a time where apprentice / adept towers didnt get used at all.. simply because they were not that good back than. I am totaly fine if LTs stay as they are.. because if you nerf them someone will complain that other stuff is op Probably

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Breaking the chain upon mob death would be a massive nerf to LTs and make them unreliable for aggroing ogres from multiple lanes and likely render many current builds obsolete.

If people agree to a nerf for the LT in principle (which doesn't seem to be the case), I think the damage can be adjusted downward to see how the player base handle it. But I think the range/chaining effect of the LT should be preserved, at least for now.

tl;dr My vote is yes to LT damage nerf. No to LT range/chain effect nerf.

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I think what most are missing is that you have to see everything in perspective.

You can't run a map that is designed 1k stats with an 4-6k Builder and say that LT's are OP.

In that case YOU are OP.

Its only natural that you can build shinanigans with really high stats.

And since the LT isn't that usefull unless you have pretty high stats im perfectly fine with it, because that would mean that you've put much time into your gear and the game and probably used other towers before getting to the point of using LT's.


TL:DR

If you faceroll low maps with Ultra Gear = Not OP

If you faceroll High End Maps with LT's = Show me some evidence^^


All im seeing is that LT's get used in High end builds but maybe only 2-3, the faceroll everybody is complaining about happens only in low maps with way to high gear.

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I feel like LTs sould get nerved.

In it´s current state players with trans+ equip can start using them properly- on (nearly )every map. High range combined with a infinite chain range covers a whole map, allowing to destroy everything without electric immunity to get (nearly) 1 hitted- off of the other side of the map. I dont think this is the point to ask "hey, but you surely can´t build a whole map with them!" - by the way, ever seen that old lt, buffbeam and auras only Aquanos survival build? yeah, surely thats not OP! What we sould stay focussed on is asking- what towers got the most kills and -more importantly- the most damage on each map they are build on? LTs(just place a few anywhere on the map with buffbeams), shortly followed by auras (depending on the aura spot, with buffbeams).

I personally enjoy variety and yet people are discussing about this. 

Therefore my question would be: If you don´t think LTs are op, why place them in every map? Don´t try tricking me, you do- now getting a video of doing some maps without those LTs proves nothing. And, next step- if you insist they are not op- why are you against the nerv? Do you use yesters party popper or squires harpoon anymore on any end maps- more then 1-2 maps? - I don´t LTs make every map far too easy.


Yes, achieving high stats does seem to be a requirement on LTs to work- let´s say around 3k (trans equip). beyond that point dmg, range, health and rate begin to scale horribly. Making this game enjoyable for starters as well as for seasoned players is sometimes hard, and it´s totally fine for me if people keep investigating new builds such as a TL with ESTs only. Personal builds are fun.

Just for the sake of it, Atherial has a build using only ESTs on TL. So... we should nerf ESTs as well? LOL.

Only if theres a single kind of tower (LT) in basically every build it gets visual its broken. I recently startet the game again from start with some mates and had a mage. Once i unlocked the LT i could spike trough maps with them... with around 200er stats. Yes, not high end only campaign. But worked out, soon we where able to start farming endgamemaps.


Comming trough, i suggest a range cap on chains. Not too sure what would be fine as range tho. On the other hand, i am opposed to the idea of "chainbreaking"- that would propably lower range randomly (depending on mobspawn) and result in horrible outcomes.


-> Michili


Edit: this might be horribly to read as its late here. sleep tight.

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Thats like you would say auras or buff beams are OP because they are in every build.

Just like Auras are Support LTs are for Mass DMG and can't alone do much.

You need a wall infront of them or they get smashed in an instant.


I too love variety but a LT nerf isn't going to buff other DMG Tower.


But if they would rebalance other towers too i would be totally for it!

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@chakratos quote:

Thats like you would say auras or buff beams are OP because they are in every build.

Just like Auras are Support LTs are for Mass DMG and can't alone do much.

You need a wall infront of them or they get smashed in an instant.


I too love variety but a LT nerf isn't going to buff other DMG Tower.


But if they would rebalance other towers too i would be totally for it!

Exactly.

Auras are essential in almost every build but that doesnt mean that they need to get nerfed. but you have to use them for most of the maps.

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@Hardened Defender quote:

I agree that lightning towers are OP and require a nerf at this point.  The biggest issue is their range - by chaining, they can reach across the entire map doing AoE damage.  Their chain limit isn't that big of a limit, considering their buffed damage as well.  Breaking the chain if mobs in-between die and the chain range gets exceeded seems like the most reasonable/'logical' fix to me, although that would probably be too harsh of a nerf.

I agree that chain-breaking would be a pretty major nerf; if this was the case, I'd propose buffing the damage further to help offset that. It would still have amazing and solid utility as a major DPS crowd control weapon; it just wouldn't be able to reach all the way to spawn and back with a single chain.


@chakratos quote:

I think what most are missing is that you have to see everything in perspective.

You can't run a map that is designed 1k stats with an 4-6k Builder and say that LT's are OP.

In that case YOU are OP.

Its only natural that you can build shinanigans with really high stats.

My only issue with this argument is that LT's are pretty much the only tower you can pull this off with. If you tried aura stacks + buff beam + literally any other tower, you're gonna be hosed, regardless of stats. The fact that this is the only tower you can pull this off with says something about how powerful they are.


@chakratos quote:

Thats like you would say auras or buff beams are OP because they are in every build.

Aura stacks and (especially) buff beams are absolutely undeniably OP. The trouble is, they have been ingrained so deep into this game's meta that if we tried adjusting them in any way, the game's progression would horrifically break in so many ways.

  • Late-game enemy damage revolves around being inside the strength drain aura. 
  • Late-game enemy speed revolves around being inside the ensnare aura. 
  • Late-game enemy health revolves around the damage output of towers on buff beams.
Creating a scenario where ensnare, strength drain, and a 6x damage beam are optional would require so much rework it makes me dizzy just thinking about it. And that's not even taking into consideration the community outcry. Imagine all the salt, blood and tears that have come from buffing/nerfing DST's and LT's. Now imagine the salt and tears that would happen if buff beams and auras were touched. It would be a bloodbath.

I would LOVE to see buff beams get hit repeatedly by the nerf bat to make them situationally advantageous but optional. But, I have also come to terms with the fact that will most likely never happen, given how NM scales and the amount of work it would take to scale everything back would be totally unreasonable.

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