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mayhem_zero

Revisiting the Genie bug fix for Update 4

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I think that we should revisit fixing the genie bug with an appropriate increase in the amount of mana received per animation (50 to 100% more maybe?).

Edit: Moved rest of this post to it's own thread.

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Increasing the mana gain doesn't fix the fundamental problem people had with the change. The problem was that genies then felt awful and unrewarding to use. I quit playing the game for most of the Buccaneer Bay beta due to how awful the change felt.

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@Caimen0 quote:

Increasing the mana gain doesn't fix the fundamental problem people had with the change. The problem was that genies then felt awful and unrewarding to use. I quit playing the game for most of the Buccaneer Bay beta due to how awful the change felt.

I didn't play the beta so correct me if I'm wrong, but it didn't actually include an increase in mana gain though, did it?

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I'm personally against it.

Some game behaviors are indisputably accidental rather than by design, but once you have the behavior you have a design choice – change it or leave it the way it is.  You can fix it so it does what it was supposed to all along, or you can decide you like what you did accidentally and you don't want to change it.

For example, I recently brought up the way kill% works in another post.  Basically, a bug makes it useful for ending waves quickly.  I've already identified the bug and written a fix for it (it's very straightforward), so I could easily make the bug go away, but it's a behavior that players rely on and enjoy.  Fixing the bug by itself would just waste player time and make the game less fun, so we could choose to leave it alone.  OR we could fix the kill% bug and replace it with a less buggy behavior that does something similar.  Those are both options.

Likewise I think the community has pretty much spoken on the genie bug – yes, it is indisputably a bug, but the community does not want the originally intended behavior.  Could we replace it with some other less buggy, more consistent behavior?  Sure, but I'm not sure the 50–100% increase you've proposed would really make the player base happy.  I don't think I'd like it personally.

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@mayhem_zero quote:


I didn't play the beta so correct me if I'm wrong, but it didn't actually include an increase in mana gain though, did it?

As I said, that part is entirely irrelevant. Your change makes genies proc once for either the genie's normal amount (BB beta, usually 420 because 29004) or your proposed 50-100% (630-840) which is not 2020. It does not fix the clunky feel unless you break the scaling for the item.


Even if you do that, you're just removing skill expression (knowing how to swirl to begin with) and character variation from the game, because then you can just shoot a staff once and get 2020 mana, and just have an offhand stat stick instead of a wolfhunter/Gaia's and encouraging the creation of a different variant of the class.

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@Caimen0 quote:

Even if you do that, you're just removing skill expression and character variation from the game, because then you can just shoot a staff once and get 2020 mana, and just have an offhand stat stick instead of a wolfhunter/Gaia's and encouraging the creation of a different variant of the class.

Completely agree, I'm strongly against "fixing" the genie bug.

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Would it kill everyone to put the fix in a beta with an increase in mana granted to see how people actually like it rather than just speculating about it? Would also be nice to be able to use more weapons for upgrading.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

Would it kill everyone to put the fix in a beta with an increase in mana granted to see how people actually like it rather than just speculating about it? Would also be nice to be able to use more weapons for upgrading.

Yes, it would kill me, because I'm not speculating. I've already played played a version of DD that had swirling removed. I would rather drink bleach.


Furthermore, having "more weapons for upgrading" requires swirling to exist. A weapon being good for upgrading means that it has multiple projectiles that fire quickly, usually with the ability to go through walls. in order to get as many ticks in during the swirl period as possible.

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@Caimen0 quote:

@mayhem_zero quote:

Would it kill everyone to put the fix in a beta with an increase in mana granted to see how people actually like it rather than just speculating about it? Would also be nice to be able to use more weapons for upgrading.

Yes, it would kill me, because I'm not speculating. I've already played played a version of DD that had swirling removed. I would rather drink bleach.


Furthermore, having "more weapons for upgrading" requires swirling to exist. A weapon being good for upgrading means that it has multiple projectiles that fire quickly, usually with the ability to go through walls. in order to get as many ticks in during the swirl period as possible.


So saying that a different version than what you tested will definitely not work is not speculating?
More weapons for upgrading means the bug is fixed, you do damage and get mana, the way the pet was intended to function....



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@Caimen0 quote:

Even if you do that, you're just removing skill expression (knowing how to swirl to begin with) and character variation from the game, because then you can just shoot a staff once and get 2020 mana, and just have an offhand stat stick instead of a wolfhunter/Gaia's and encouraging the creation of a different variant of the class.

Using the genie swirl is not that much of a skill, and being able to use other weapons is the very definition of variety/variation.

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I think increasing thine number of ticks would be required too to have a similar behavior to how it works now. Anyway, it has already been discussed and people chose to keep it that way, why bring it back? It doesn't seem really worth it to fix it just for the sake of it if in the end you're getting just as much mana.

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Long post warning, a recurring theme with me! ;-)

Please remember that this bug has been a known thing since game launched late Oct 2011(on PC, XB360 and PS3), dunno about mobile.
Since then, this topic of "fixing" genie proc has come up umpteen number of times, and has had TONS of debates over it.

What really is the underlying issue here is that -- despite being fully aware of the genie bug -- Trendy still kept on developing and designing maps around that strategy. Back then the early NMHC maps(when item cap was Myth), on survivals -- it would require gathering mana quickly and safely otherwise it would result in wipeouts.
There was also no Jester back then either, so the go-to upgraders were Apprentice, Adept and Huntress, Rangers. So it used to be unnecessarily annoying and tedious to not "exploit" the Genie bug to upgrade things in survivals back then. And even more so when maps kept getting harder and harder and bigger and longer.

So when the actual developers have designed maps around the genie bug, fixing the genie bug would then require to lower the map difficulties for every single Map and challenge which isn't a part of the base game, i.e. any map/challenge after Glitterhelm Caverns. Otherwise you are just punishing players by making it annoying to gather mana for upgrading towers in end game maps where it is critical to get upgrades done quickly otherwise you risk a wipeout, especially on solo.

It is a bug, no one denies it, no one has denied it.

However, the onus of fixing it was on Trendy when it was relayed to them, and relayed it was, ample amount of times in the past. Yet, they kept on designing maps and survivals around it. So now if we were to fix this bug, it would only make the game harder for new people and unnecessarily irritating for others who are playing it since long.
Currently, in a total active community of 250-350 max players, 7 years into this game's life, I don't think it's a good idea to fix this bug. But if it must be fixed, then as I said before, every single map designed after Glitterhelm Caverns ought to be re-balanced. Which is a gargantuan task, unnecessary and utterly pointless.


Side note:
This debate is similar to Lab Assault being ridiculously exploitable and offering a clearly imbalanced amount of gear for the difficulty and effort it takes to beat the map. The onus of fixing it, yet again, fell on Trendy, but they didn't give a crap about it. 4 years since its release people have decked out all their characters with high end armor pieces from Lab Assault. It breaks progression, it broke progression.

So before we debate and discuss on "fixing Lab Assault" we have to then also think and consider about -- why should new players be punished after 4 years by fixing EVs from falling off the map or making the rewards worse? I think the current removal of exclusive accs from Lab Assault is far from a perfect fix, but it doesn't really punish new players. Everyone I know has exploited Lab Assault for armor. I personally hate it and have never done it for armor.

Logically speaking I would be in full favour of either -- A.) Keep the rewards the same and fixing the EVs from falling down and reducing their count or HP by some amount so it would still be possible to solo, just not as easier. Or B.) Capping the rewards to not drop beyond Sup(assuming it is even possible).

But then when I'm being realistic about it -- I don't think any more tweaking should be done to Lab Assault simply becasue the time to fix it is gone since long, you'd just punish newcomers to this game and possibly drive them away from end-game by fixing it. People who wanted to benefit from how easy Lab Assault is have already done so. Some people stuck in progression are already benefiting from it. So if you fix it NOW, especially this, that would only mean -- being indifferent towards people who have not been able to or were not present during a time when Lab Assault being broken and dead easy.

One more thing:

Lets not forget -- this is not a competitive game.
Yes leaderboards exist, but come on now they don't offer anything to you other than being a d!ck-measuring contest.
So if someone is using an bug(Genie, Minion, Tower Stacking, Sky City Grill), or a broken map(Lab Assault) it doesn't affect anyone else. You have the choice to not play or not use those map.
I for one hate have never been a fan of the Temple of Polybius map since when I did my own Final Event participation, I hate it.
I complained about it in beta being -- dumb monotonous and pushing a very singular strategy to beat it and just being overall poorly designed last phase. But... at the end of the day I have the option to not farm that map. I can just buy the things which drop from that map and call it a day. Which I have already done.

So, in conclusion -- too late to fix these bugs/exploits. You'll only be alienating and punishing people who are yet to play the game or are mid-way in progression. Bugs and exploits like this must be fixed right when they are found out. Not 7 or 4 years late into the game when ever Tom, D!ck and Harry(not you harry!) has benefited from it. At that point you are just being selfish and inconsiderate towards anyone new coming to this game.

I think fixing Lab Assault or any such bugs anymore simply results in elitism. More than enough people have benefited from it and punishing others seems like a major d!ck move. As sad as it is, and this is coming from someone who absolutely despises Lab Assault. But it's the reality, it should not be fixed anymore, same as other bugs.

There was a thread by a new player expressing concerns about Lab Assault (exclusive)accessory removal and they claimed (and I'm roughly paraphrasing) -- Why punish newer players by nerfing such maps when everyone else has benefited from or exploited it? (Link to the thread in question. He later did realize how broken Lab Assault was for getting gear early on in the game.)
That's an example of someone expression concerns about the same elitism I talked about above.

So do ponder on it.

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Thank you @mambo for stating everything that needed to be stated. Funny it seems like we were talking about this yesterday.....

So i have a few clarifications for you mambo as i did play a fair bit on mobile when it was first released and i am certain that the bug was still prevalent there obviously not to the degree it is abused or used now.

I also agree that changing this bug makes the game much harder and it hurts low stated players more than people that have insanely overkill stats. Much like my arguments on the golden mobs buff that was "fixed" and pushed to the death by the CDT. The ability to mana swirl would make soloing the game at 1k - 2k stats much harder and make the barrier to endgame entry even harder. Granted i don't think many endgame players care about this fact. As mambo said the bug was balanced around from the start of the eternia shards making it honestly no longer a bug but a core game-play mechanic. Removing the genie swirl only hurts people that are new and people that enjoys DD. Tell me how much you would like running something like ember mount without a genie and mana bow for 8+ hours. Those nice waves where you get to sit relax and do some tower boosting kiss them goodbye.

At one point i was for this change but over time i noticed how integral it is to the game. One of the first things i tell a new player is to get a genie and a wolf bow so they can be useful even if their gear sucks and is miss matched. It lets people always be able to carry their weight in most maps. I was also around for the buc bay beta when it was removed and i can say that it was not good. 

Just a couple of my thoughts and putting my say here to hopefully ensure that this does not get fixed as it would be another black mark on the game that i use to love.

Have a nice day

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