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mayhem_zero

Some non-QOL changes for Update 4

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These are some things which I feel need to be addressed for the next update.


1. Lightning towers need a nerf. I'm happy that they are usable since I am a fan of them, but the buff they got was a little too much. I'm not sure what would need to be changed, perhaps the max chain length or distance between enemies or duration.

2. Stacking needs to be eliminated.

3. TOP should be polished, with proper scaling and a working map for the final section.

4. Fish bowl max stats should be reduced to 550, they are far too easy to get and certainly should not be on the level of kobolds and skeletons. I realize it may be a little late to change this.

5. Consider increasing the possible drops or random rewards for any map to include items from any map that the player has completed. For example, if you've beaten AkatitiJungle and you play Deeper Well, you would have a possibility of getting an Obsidian weapon as a random reward or drop (scaled to the difficulty of the map of course). I think this would help to diversify the maps which are being played.

I may add more ideas at a later time.

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3. TOP should be polished, with proper scaling and a working map for the final section.

> inb4 "GIT GUD AND GIT FRANDS AND GIT RANDUMS, MAYHEM!!!11!one!!1!!!!" comments!

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@mayhem_zero quote:

3. TOP should be polished, with proper scaling and a working map for the final section.


I'm somewhat confused by this. The only problem that I am aware of with scaling is Kraken's tentacles, which are already getting fixed in the next patch.

100% agree on the map. IIRC Mischief and/or Alhanalem were working on it, but it didnt make it to release.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

5. Consider increasing the possible drops or random rewards for any map to include items from any map that the player has completed. For example, if you've beaten AkatitiJungle and you play Deeper Well, you would have a possibility of getting an Obsidian weapon as a random reward or drop (scaled to the difficulty of the map of course). I think this would help to diversify the maps which are being played.

If that were a thing people would only ever run one map, the one that has the highest quality scaling.


EDIT:

As for points 1 and 2 I agree with 1, LTs do need a little nerf and stacking doesn't matter to me, remove it keep it idc.

And for 3: ToP is fine for me as it is. As far as it being a "working map" it seems to be working for me, what exactly isn't working for you?

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@Pulchritudinous Washboard quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:

5. Consider increasing the possible drops or random rewards for any map to include items from any map that the player has completed. For example, if you've beaten AkatitiJungle and you play Deeper Well, you would have a possibility of getting an Obsidian weapon as a random reward or drop (scaled to the difficulty of the map of course). I think this would help to diversify the maps which are being played.

If that were a thing people would only ever run one map, the one that has the highest quality scaling.

Then have it cap at the quality of the map from which it normally awards.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

1. Lightning towers need a nerf. I'm happy that they are usable since I am a fan of them, but the buff they got was a little too much. I'm not sure what would need to be changed, perhaps the max chain length or distance between enemies or duration.

I think they're pretty clearly OP, but I think we'll need a specific proposal for how to nerf them, and then we'll need to get the community to agree to it.  If you want this to happen, it probably needs its own forum thread.


2. Stacking needs to be eliminated.

I've asked around, and most people wanted me to leave stacking alone when I asked.  There are definitely people who think it should be fixed, but I didn't get the feeling that there was a consensus about it.  Personally, I would support fixing stacking, though you should realize this includes fixing minion stacking, not just physical tower stacking.


3. TOP should be polished, with proper scaling and a working map for the final section.

We can fix the kraken tentacle HP scaling, if that's what you mean.  We can also add a multi-zone minimap to Poly.  It's basically just a matter of putting in the work to create it and test it.  There are a couple other small changes we need to make, mostly related to pathing.  I think the north god beams also accept decals, so traps project onto them, which looks a little silly.  But IMO the most important change for Poly would be a way to make the water effects less taxing (or disable them entirely) for people with bad graphics cards, because these users can barely play the map right now.


4. Fish bowl max stats should be reduced to 550, they are far too easy to get and certainly should not be on the level of kobolds and skeletons. I realize it may be a little late to change this.

Fish have a low chance of hitting 600 on any stat and have an upgrade cap of 500.  Your odds of getting a quad-600 tower fish are less than 1 in 10,000,000, which is not nearly as good as 1 in 50 for kobolds.  They are definitely progression-breaking because of how easy they are to get, but I'm not sure this is a real problem – the main effect of fish is that it's very easy to break into NM without getting boosted. 



5. Consider increasing the possible drops or random rewards for any map to include items from any map that the player has completed. For example, if you've beaten AkatitiJungle and you play Deeper Well, you would have a possibility of getting an Obsidian weapon as a random reward or drop (scaled to the difficulty of the map of course). I think this would help to diversify the maps which are being played.

No, thank you.

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@Caimen0 quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:

3. TOP should be polished, with proper scaling and a working map for the final section.


I'm somewhat confused by this. The only problem that I am aware of with scaling is Kraken's tentacles, which are already getting fixed in the next patch.

100% agree on the map. IIRC Mischief and/or Alhanalem were working on it, but it didnt make it to release.

According to what Plane posted on Discord, there are a number of enemies that do not scale.

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It's normal that many enemies do not scale their HP with number of players.  That applies to every map, not just Polybius.

Enemies which do NOT scale HP with number of players
 Goblins
 Orcs
 Kobolds
 Wyverns
 Archers
 Mages
 Warriors
 Spiders
 Sharken
 Goblin Copters
 Turkeys
 Evil heroes (except on Poly, where they do scale)
 Kraken (tentacles)

Enemies which DO scale HP with number of players
 Djinn
 Ogres (including mini-ogres)
 Harbingers
 Demon Lord
 Goblin Mech
 Dragon
 Spider Queen
 Genie King
 Kraken (body)
 Mega Turkey
 Mega Snowman
 Mega Cupid
 Polybius (the evil arcade machine)

The Kraken tentacles are the only exception to bosses scaling HP with number of players, and that affects not only Polybius but every other map which has a Kraken.  Polybius does have its own scaling (and as you can see the evil heroes do scale HP on Polybius, unlike other maps) but there are no enemies which scale HP on other maps but not on Polybius.

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@Plane quote:

I've asked around, and most people wanted me to leave stacking alone when I asked.  There are definitely people who think it should be fixed, but I didn't get the feeling that there was a consensus about it.  Personally, I would support fixing stacking, though you should realize this includes fixing minion stacking, not just physical tower stacking.


Bugs such as this shouldn't require a consensus, and yes, of course minion stacking should be fixed as well.

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@mayhem_zero quote:Bugs such as this shouldn't require a consensus

I don't have the power to change gameplay significantly without community support.

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@Plane quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:Bugs such as this shouldn't require a consensus

I don't have the power to change gameplay significantly without community support.

Stacking is not gameplay, summoning defenses is gameplay and stacking is essentially cheating or being lazy.

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@mayhem_zero quote:


@Plane quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:Bugs such as this shouldn't require a consensus

I don't have the power to change gameplay significantly without community support.

Stacking is not gameplay, summoning defenses is gameplay and stacking is essentially cheating or being lazy.

I think stacking is a fun game play element.  I'm against changing it.  It's no more or less a bug than genie swirling.  I'm also against changing that.  

- The "C" in C.D.T.

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I still dont understand why were not getting map rewards on survival for shards map when completing survival.
FOr me this is the most obvious change i want cause i feel theres no reason why not.
The Giraffe is a joke , come on. Swap it out or remove it or idk, its nerver good since u can get fish in bowls from hard/insane with better stats. So why keeping the giraffe. It has 0 purpose except for the achievment ?
And i feel polys last boss , the monk , is just a pain cause u only see fire on ure whole screen. Its no fun or clever boss-mechanic its just tedious. Why is stuff like this in the game.
I always come back to DD cause i feel like "ye mate u got the 0.1111% chance something awesome will drop" and then nothing drops :D
I guess im gamble-addicted.
And what does towerstacking disabling change ? idk mate ... as if this was THAT GAMEBREAKING bug... come on.
Maybe we get an event pet that boosts 10 towers next time , cause 6 mate is OP.

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@wayn3R_ quote:

And i feel polys last boss , the monk , is just a pain cause u only see fire on ure whole screen. Its no fun or clever boss-mechanic its just tedious. Why is stuff like this in the game.

That is the "Mischief Monk", a common event boss on maps that Mischief had a hand in making. And Mischief helped make Temple of Polybius for an event ~3 years ago.

The entirety of this game past Summit (or Crystalline Dimension, depending on your opinion of "story end") is tedium for people who like to grind, so I'd say the Mischief Monk fits right in.

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LT's need about a 15% decrease in their DPS. At the moment, you can spam LT's around a map and watch as they both destroy ogres and bosses with relative ease. This is especially apparent on WW NMHC, where you just throw down about 5-10 LT's, equip App/Huntress guardians, then Tower boost while you have the Builder out for the 30% bonus. At the very most, 25%. Anymore, and there are better ways to complete a map without the Adept/App.

I don't think Tower stacking should be fixed, as many late game builds(Not necessarily my builds) include Tower/minion Stacking. It would be easy to adjust builds if it was fixed, so "fixing" it would be more of a waste of time than anything.(also, it would make MB NMHC survival MUCH harder xD)

I think the Fish needs to have some difficulty scaling. On hard, you can get 500+ on some stats and on NM you can get the same(If I remember correctly...?). Maybe buff the Moon pet, Its a lot harder to get compared to the ToT, which regularly spawns better.


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@wayn3R_ quote:

I still dont understand why were not getting map rewards on survival for shards map when completing survival.

Because community members were against it.


@wayn3R_ quote:

And i feel polys last boss , the monk , is just a pain cause u only see fire on ure whole screen. Its no fun or clever boss-mechanic its just tedious. Why is stuff like this in the game.

I can see fine if I play zoomed out.  It's pretty fun TBH.

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I can see fine if I play zoomed out. It's pretty fun TBH.

Almost sounds like the classic "works for me, so must work for you" argument/excuse.
Mischief Monk fire projectile is the epitome of eye cancer.
Not everyone can find it fun to play with the top-down camera, saying as someone who uses top-down in most non-boss waves in the game. He's not saying to nerf the boss or anything, just making it visually less painful and bearable shouldn't be "hard" or an issue for anyone. Extremely valid point he has made. 


Edit:

Because community members were against it.

When and where? I'd like to read on this. Don't recall anything as such other than one time it being brought up by me in some thread. But that was mostly about Shards Pets dropping with higher qualities at end of Survival, but in the hindsight I realized that it would be progression breaking, given how easy most Shards Maps are.

I personally don't think Shards maps should drop reward weps on survivals becasue then people will go run the survivals instead of doing the bosses. And except for Sky City, Shards reward weps are pretty low anyways. Seems unnecessary.

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@Black Mamba quote:

Almost sounds like the classic "works for me, so must work for you" argument/excuse.
Mischief Monk fire projectile is the epitome of eye cancer.
Not everyone can find it fun to play with the top-down camera, saying as someone who uses top-down in most non-boss waves in the game. He's not saying to nerf the boss or anything, just making it visually less painful and bearable shouldn't be "hard" or an issue for anyone. Extremely valid point he has made.

It's only valid in that it is an opinion on an aesthetic element. It is not a fact in any way. I don't even need to view top-down and I can do just fine against the boss. The worst part is the screen effects from taking damage rather than the fire itself.

If MM fire is the epitome of eye cancer to you, it has probably been a while since you've played Realm of Polybius. That is 100x worse than anything MM will do to you.

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There is a lot of fantastic discussion going on in this thread, but there are too many separate conversations happening. I think having a dedicated thread for each of the following would be hugely beneficial:

  • Lightning tower balance
  • Whether stacking towers and minions should be patched or not
  • Fish balance (max stats, level requirement, etc), perhaps toss Moon pet and giraffe balance in there too
  • Polybius feedback

If you feel passionate enough about any one of these topics, please start a thread and let your voice be heard! Having focus for each of these would allow a deeper discussion and allow the CDT to get a consensus on the sentiment of each topic. We would then be able to make an informed decision on how to approach it with update 4.

Also as a side note, the community has opted for significant bugs/exploits to remain in the game. The two biggest ones I can think of are genie swirling and Lab Assault cheesing. Crzyrndm tried fixing both of these, which caused a pretty big rift for a time. Since the CDT doesn't call the shots (the community at large does), his fixes were reverted and allowed to remain in the game permanently as "features". Tower stacking falls into this exact same category, which is why it is important to have a dedicated thread discussing it. 

Personally I'm in the "fix all the exploits" group, but I also understand that there are a lot more people in the "leave it as a feature" group, so I get to smile through my teeth and bear with it.

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@gigazelle quote:

There is a lot of fantastic discussion going on in this thread, but there are too many separate conversations happening. I think having a dedicated thread for each of the following would be hugely beneficial:

  • Lightning tower balance
  • Whether stacking towers and minions should be patched or not
  • Fish balance (max stats, level requirement, etc), perhaps toss Moon pet and giraffe balance in there too
  • Polybius feedback

If you feel passionate enough about any one of these topics, please start a thread and let your voice be heard! Having focus for each of these would allow a deeper discussion and allow the CDT to get a consensus on the sentiment of each topic. We would then be able to make an informed decision on how to approach it with update 4.

Also as a side note, the community has opted for significant bugs/exploits to remain in the game. The two biggest ones I can think of are genie swirling and Lab Assault cheesing. Crzyrndm tried fixing both of these, which caused a pretty big rift for a time. Since the CDT doesn't call the shots (the community at large does), his fixes were reverted and allowed to remain in the game permanently as "features". Tower stacking falls into this exact same category, which is why it is important to have a dedicated thread discussing it. 

Personally I'm in the "fix all the exploits" group, but I also understand that there are a lot more people in the "leave it as a feature" group, so I get to smile through my teeth and bear with it.

I already made a post about polybius I'll bump it I guess. I would be willing to make a post about LT balancing. 

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