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Caimen0

Some Observations Regarding the New Tavern

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As the saying goes, "hindsight is always 20/20", and I think it applies to some of the changes to the tavern.

There are 2 more common complaints about the update that I think can be remedied by certain changes to the tavern in future updates.

The first item isn't a very hot topic, but is a QOL change that should be implemented. With the tavern update, many people had items in their basement. The tavern changes moved the basement on the coordinate plane without moving their items with it. There have been multiple threads on the Steam forums from people noting that they cannot reach their items now. One suggestion is to add a "loot all" or similar button in the tavern for people to pick up items that are outside the pickup range.

The second point is a topic of much conversation here, that I think can be alleviated to at least some degree; that issue being framerate. Due to the new tavern being a map larger than most of the original campaign maps, people are experiencing framerrate issues in tavern. The problem is that most of the map is useless. While it looks fantastic (Great job Nexus), in hindsight, it is functionally irrelevant to the game, and there is even a sign warning people to not put items there.  Could not this area be removed until it has a purpose?


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@Caimen0 quote:The second point is a topic of much conversation here, that I think can be alleviated to at least some degree; that issue being framerate. Due to the new tavern being a map larger than most of the original campaign maps, people are experiencing framerrate issues in tavern. The problem is that most of the map is useless. While it looks fantastic (Great job Nexus), in hindsight, it is functionally irrelevant to the game, and there is even a sign warning people to not put items there.  Could not this area be removed until it has a purpose?

I don't know how much removing the outside would help with frame rate problems.  It might, but we'd have to test it to make sure (and by "we", I mean whoever is currently having FPS problems).  We might end up having to do other stuff too, like simplify the inside somewhat, to fix their performance problems.

I would like to remove the outside regardless, though.  The file size is too big, and removing the outside would get rid of 80% of the file size increase.  Since it's so large, people have trouble actually loading the tavern because they time out before it finishes.  Other players do manage to load the tavern but it takes them a long time.  Since you have to load the tavern every time you do anything, we should try to make it load faster.  The long load time may be the cause of some other problems as well, such as characters failing to load in more often (so it says "Plane Plane" instead of "Plane | Muffin 100" and you can't initiate trade/inspect with 'e' and 'f').

Removing the outside would definitely help with load time and some issues related to that, and might help with frame rate as well, so I'd support that change.

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Ahh, the Tavern discussion always my favorite!
How excited I was for it initially versus how it eventually turned out to be -- to the point that I'd pay money to have the old vanilla tavern back! Day and night of an experience really!

Anyways, reading Plane's post here -- those were my concerns with the Tavern back in the beta thread itself! I've been saying try it without the outdoors and extra floors to see if it fixes the performance problems or not, but I guess feedback from people like me doesn't matter until smelly stuff hits the roof? (In jest) :D

Regardless, good to see finally that some sense of realization has kicked in.

Coming on topic.
Consistent with my previous stand -- I don't personally mind the top floor, as I don't host floor shops and I've said in the beta thread that I won't be using it. I still think it is useless and boring[for me].
B U T, "in the hindsight", I can see that quite a lot of people do use it to host floor shops(or just straight up decoration). So doing away with that, assuming it verifiably doesn't cause performance issues, will be a bit tricky. And a few people might take exceptions to it, especially now that it was rolled out officially. And now that they have invested time and effort in organizing their Tavern items, some flares will go off.

Tavern is a sensitive subject, if only someone would've told that earlier, multiple times at that. Oh wait!

So yeah, backtracking on the 2nd floor now that people have customized it will be very tricky. Unless you can pin it down that it is the cause to FPS drops.

Now,
The outside -- I've been saying is a one time wonder. Looks nice, you'll go out maybe once, twice. Then you'll forget that it even exists. Serves no purpose either, takes up resources, and "potentially" causes issues.
Although, I don't think it is the reason for the FPS drops. This is becasue in my comprehensive testing in almost all the areas of the Tavern, I have found out that the Etheria Crystal area is the shifty bit. Facing it directly just tanks the FPS. But the moment you turn away from it you can witness FPS increasing. This is applicable both inside and outside and the further you are away from it, the higher your FPS gets.
Results of this testing were passed on to Acen recently(after re-doing them, again) and they are PRETTY MUCH the same as my previous tests results which can be checked on my previous rant thread about this topic.

Finally, about items disappearing.
I didn't actually post or inquire about this(at least not that I can remember) but I do remember talking about this with Acen last year on PM that should there be concerns of items disappearing due to the Tavern coordinates will be changes. He did assure me it, being item loss, won't be an issue. However, something inside me told me to pick them up and keep them in my inventory anyways. 
And oh boy! Reading posts here and on Steam discussions about people losing their stuff... Some guy lost 50 coals he had in his basement. I'm just glad I did the sensible thing and picked my stuff up and didn't risk it, not that it was of much value, but I'd still have been pissed if I had lost even a 100 Mana Token. Really feels bad for people who lost their items though.

_______________________

The long load time may be the cause of some other problems as well, such as characters failing to load in more often (so it says "Plane Plane" instead of "Plane | Muffin 100" and you can't initiate trade/inspect with 'e' and 'f').

I'm taking a guess here, but that might be an issue with networking itself as it has been existent since long before this update. Even with 1 player in the older much less resource hungry tavern -- sometimes you wouldn't completely load up and won't be able to see crystal-stats of people, whom you couldn't trade with or inspect their character gear either. So it might just be latency issue as I in my experience I've had this happen often with people who are in NA/SA and rarely with people in EU/ASIA/AUS. Just my guess.

The old Tavern from what I know, even on the lowest of low spec PCs or Laptops ran relatively fine. In-game character models not loading was also never an issue in the old tavern(to my knowledge), like it is right now with low res chars in the current Tavern.

_______________________

Now, a few times it has been relayed to be that "I come off as a d!ck" on forums.
My assurance -- don't want to, nor do I do it on purpose. It might be an interpretation issue, I do tend to be straight forward though, maybe that's way.
B U T anyways, this one time though... I kinda want to come off as a d!ck so that I can use this with regards to issues with the current Tavern:
QMMpcOZ.png


Sad thing is I haven't been able to properly host a mana shop since the update becasue if I get more than 3-4 people in the Tavern it just massacres my framerate and brings it down to near single digits. You can use the feedback the way you want, or not. Up to you guys, I've just been keeping this post as a reminder to myself about... well forget it, it doesn't matter!

Anyways, I've rambled and bickered a lot over the Tavern in the past year, this is about the last I'm going to debate/argue over it. I've given up any hopes and expectations but if you guys manage to fix it, props to you. If you don't, props to you still!

<3 Mambo.

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@Black Mamba quote:

...

I can assure you your comments where not completely ignored. During the beta i went back through and started to butcher the outdoor section by section and plane helped me to test what kind of differences it had on game play and FPS (we thought removing all the water would increase FPS more than it did). Once it was determined that the TV and cameras where the biggest factor left in the map, we brought back in the outdoors and got rid of the TV and cameras instead. 


Personally i would love to see the outside go. It is nothing but useless space IMO. There is no reason that the biggest map by a large margin should be the tavern. Tinks lab is the only map that is more than half the size of the new tavern.  

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I think in most cases, people who wanted a new tavern more accurately just wanted a bigger tavern.

from a visuals and curiosity standpoint I like the outside, but it is causing problems that were not forseen.

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One thing useful about the second floor is I can actually test maximum range for my defenses. The old tavern wasn't large enough and there were too many dummies .

As for the outside, it was fun exploring it and it isn't causing me any issues, but if it is causing trouble for others then it should go. You'll have to close down the tower completely too or maybe just seal the door. Removing the tower may (will) help with frame rate/load size as well. Just make sure you let any items that may have been dropped in the tower fall to the second floor.

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Another quick point I thought of

The upper level of the tavern is mostly used for hosting shops. Given the ample space in the area, could it be coded so that when you open your game as a shop, the Tavernkeeper is in the upper level for hero shop viewing, and the spawn point moved accordingly?

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I don't mind removing the outside of the tavern, it makes the map take way too long to load on slower computers.


If possible though, I wouldn't mind the tavern file as it is now being added as a 16p map so you can load it to mess around sometimes

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It's a shame there's no way to let players decide which tavern map they personally want to load by default when they start a lobby.

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