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Krro

Is The Prestige system killing the game?

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@Krro quote:


@Nigiri_Toro quote:

Yep thats the goal, prestiging in the current system is commiting to at least 50 resets.

Benefits being  20k more stats in every stat pool, 250% more xp and 250% more gold earned.

I agree its a huge time commitment, and thats why I think the gating on pre floor 55 needs to be tuned down alot, half that grinding is old afk content. Reducing the gating to 3 maps/floors per tier would easily reduce that to under 600 hours.

However that many hours is also how long people grinded acension for, and with acension grinding you got nothing to show for it after about 630 besides being able to build more towers with the same hero.

Do you really cap out 999 on talents with 50 resets?

Also the grind back to high ascension after you done with prestige even with xp bonus will probably take a huge amount of time. 

The biggest problem I see with this system is that you are "stuck" within prestige mode once you start. If I press that reset button i'll have 10 months of grinding c1<-->floor 65, doesn't seem that appealing to me.

Hopefully we get some adjustments. 

First I agree you are stuck with the grind once you start and thats not made clear and trendy needs to do a better job at that

you can cap out sooner then that or later then 50 if you want.

I got a extra 49 acension cap increase when i pushed to 114.  You also get 5 points for reseting at 250. If you didnt care about ancient power you could cap out in 15 resets of grinding to floor 114 and resetting at 250 each time. This would also give you 15 ancient power so you could cap out 3 things.

If you minimum prestiged each time (including the first time) it would take 171 times to cap.

Im going for 50 prestiges myself here is my reset plan:

Im curently at +89 talent caps after 4 prestiges, 1 push to 114, and resetting at 1k acension. I am minimum prestiging each time so I am getting 5 cap increase per. Starting at prestige 20 to prestige 30 I will prestige at 350 acension and floor 75 (17 cap increase per lvl), from prestige 30- 48 will reset 400 acension and floor 85 (28 cap increase per lvl). This will put my cap at 988 on prestige 48, then I simply need to finish the next 2 floors (both will give about 8 points from my acension alone when resetting) and I will hit 999 in 50 prestiges without a huge spike in the grind.


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     Lots of people are missing the basic implementation goals of this expansion. The idea is not something new to gaming. While Trendy has done a particularly bad job of it the goals remain the same. We know from the fundamental shift in player psychology over the years (roughly starting with world of warcraft) that play time is hugely important to income generation. 


     With this in mind the ancient power serves two purposes. First it lets Trendy buy time to figure out what they want to do with the game. The buying time is both literal and metaphorical. In the literal sense they get players to play longer they can release new pay vanity items and make money while people grind through floors and continue paying their employees to try and come up with something that makes DD2 worth playing. In the metaphorical sense it just gives players a huge barrier to completion that chaos did not. Most people don't understand that the grind is roughly 50x longer than chaos and actually longer if you don't win every map. 


     Next we need to look at player psychology and why such a huge barrier was put up but ultimately didn't destroy the game despite how bad it is. So it is well known / researched that players (for the most part) don't care how good or bad a game actually is. What matters to them is that they can succeed and how much time they put into the game. A player playing a ton of time with no progress won't get the fulfillment and self esteem that they generally expect from games and will move on to something else. This is why being stuck on floors because of bugs or quirks that Trendy won't fix cause so many players to quit. They spend x amount of time make no progress and so leave for a game that does give them rewards for simply playing, not playing well, just playing. But we also know that playtime is tied to another aspect of the game. Generally the more time a person spends on something the more value it has to them. The concept being that "they would never spend time on something bad" so what they are doing must be good. However the prior is obviously what generates the money as modern gamers love to add novelty and vanity to their source of self esteem. 


     These are two simple things the expansion does. The reasons it will both fail and succeed (however little) at the same time. I think one way you can tell how little Trendy cares about actual quality is all of the little improvements that could be made to the game without changing game play  ... that are just simply not made. One such example of this is the Relic / Shard system. Every player knows how annoying it is to constantly have to remove shards, unequip, equip the new, reshard. It is an unecessary series of actions that must be performed almost 100 times (depending on your upgrade gap) on each builder / dpser as you progress. Simple and obvious solution would be to make the Shards independing of the relic and actually equipped to the players "tower" where relics are then socketted into each tower. But again Trendy's priority is profit over quality so simple quality of life changes will not take place. The direct reflection of which is how small the player base is in what should have been a wildly successful game. On that note don't hold your breath waiting for Trendy to improve the game. 

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I have couple thousand hours on DD2. Since POTA introduction, about 3hrs.

Hehe, it is even strange looking my Steam Library, games are sorted by "Recent". For years DD2 was always on -Today or -Yesterday.

Now I have to go through -Today, -Yesterday, -This Week and finally -This Month to find DD2.

Sad, but true...

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@tom setberg quote:

A player playing a ton of time with no progress won't get the fulfillment and self esteem that they generally expect from games and will move on to something else.

I feel like this describes this update in a nutshell. The biggest power increase from resetting isn't felt until like ascension level 400+ (where the cap increases start to matter). But you don't really hit that while looping through for the prestige ranks. Meanwhile that measly 1-5% bonus DP is next to nothing. For the absurd amount of progress you're trading for these bonuses, it genuinely feels like you're making 0 progress.

Survival was my favorite part of DD1, and was really looking forward to the return of onslaught in DD2, and I guess to some extent, I still like onslaught... But the whole update was just a sour note for me. Losing gear isn't a big deal. Sucks for those of us that farmed multiple maxed out sets, but oh well. Losing pets and ascension though? God no. The amount of time it takes to make a pet 60/60 (let alone the 20+ that some of us have done) is just stupid to redo over and over again. Especially when you consider that they don't really provide a major power bonus at all.

And then, once again, the biggest power bonus from the update was the ascension caps, But the default ascension cap is so high compared to the level we reset to, it doesn't really come into play while you're regrinding, meaning you traded dozens of hours of progress for effectively progressing 1% faster, on a grind that takes forever thanks to multi-map floors and gating.

I'm happy that some people enjoy it... but personally it was an extreme dissapointment since it was the update I was looking forward too the most...

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in a nutshell you cannot expect the community to envision what the game has in store long term in terms of easier floor along the line which will in effectively  give one more ascension point per new floor conquered , fact of the matter is simple, trendy are way to slow in bringing out any meaningful updates which effectively  results poor player retention as they get discouraged by the wait alone, let alone the mundane task at hand. Not  single member in the community requested for recycled material, when we asked for a progression system it was something that required us to climb foward rather than take 1000 steps back and 1 step forward, a progression system that is for the many and not the few, and progression system which at the start everyone thinks "heck if i do this i will get an uber ability for my heroes which has an elemental effect bla bla".... u get what i mean and trying to say. 

This prestige system was simply put in place to compensate for the lack of timely content  released from trendys side, they needed to put something in place that required them to create something new yet keep the community enticed to play on while they work on content. The sad reality is that offering pathetic perks and mundane grind held no real incentive, the veteran realised from the get-go and the newbies who reached first prestige eventually realised that its just not worth it. 

Trendy could of done so much with this prestige system to truly encourage people to replay  for example  every two tiers of reset unlocked stronger tiers of abilities that had both visual and stat benefits  , such as squires earth shatter tier two could of had mini mountains emerge  like the sword pet in addition to the ability and with each new prestige something uber would get unlocked. but  as you can see this would require work on trendys end hence defeating the purpose they had set out for POTA which i mentioned earlier.  

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Prestige System and how Onslaught works its making the game annoying and repetitive and the game is even balanced.

For me and others Veteran Defenders, Onslaught is just 114 floor for flairs. ( I Already beat it and quit). And even Flairs are not worth to this mindless grind on repetitive mode. There some ppl that beat floor 160 without reset, so ancient power is useless, hours and hours for 1% dmg, 0.5% range?  Gold, Shards, Pets, Gears Reset? and just to increase your cap that you dont rly need on the hardest content ever?

Also, the game must have a balance changes asap, there a a lot of towers, traps, auras so useless with useless shards, even with hyper shards some defs are simple not good enough.


We dont have physical AOE towers,  we have just a few towers with CC thats is not a trap.

We Have AA thats its not useful against fliers, Auras are much better.

We have a lot of defs that nobody uses , cos its sucks like: Explosive Trap,Geyser trap, Blaze Baloon,  Hailstorm Tower, Boost Aura, Buff Beam, Archers,  Abyss Lord Walls, Harpies, Volcano, Ballista, Squire Dummy...

Thats are the Opinion of a player who support this game for years and beat mastery mode and also reach floor 114 on Onslaught.

Pls Trendy, Balance your game.


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@Chronos ~ quote:

Prestige System and how Onslaught works its making the game annoying and repetitive and the game is even balanced.

For me and others Veteran Defenders, Onslaught is just 114 floor for flairs. ( I Already beat it and quit). And even Flairs are not worth to this mindless grind on repetitive mode. There some ppl that beat floor 160 without reset, so ancient power is useless, hours and hours for 1% dmg, 0.5% range?  Gold, Shards, Pets, Gears Reset? and just to increase your cap that you dont rly need on the hardest content ever?

Also, the game must have a balance changes asap, there a a lot of towers, traps, auras so useless with useless shards, even with hyper shards some defs are simple not good enough.


We dont have physical AOE towers,  we have just a few towers with CC thats is not a trap.

We Have AA thats its not useful against fliers, Auras are much better.

We have a lot of defs that nobody uses , cos its sucks like: Explosive Trap,Geyser trap, Blaze Baloon,  Hailstorm Tower, Boost Aura, Buff Beam, Archers,  Abyss Lord Walls, Harpies, Volcano, Ballista, Squire Dummy...

Thats are the Opinion of a player who support this game for years and beat mastery mode and also reach floor 114 on Onslaught.

Pls Trendy, Balance your game.


Preach on!!!!!!

I am so happy to see someone point out the AA issue, and the lack of physical CC towers, as i don't see that mentioned much in the forums. We have so few good AA options. I'd love to see an air focused hero and tower set. Add some creativity to the builds. Rebalancing can of course solve that even easier. 

The balance needs and Onslaught issues are going from hopeful fixes to "why the hell not" category pretty darn quick for many. I wish TE would just tell us if they do not plan to fix something. We can stop asking for it, and those who don't like it can just bail on the game (if they have not already). At least that would save some respect for how it is handled. This system of begging for changes that never come rubs many the wrong way. 

Maybe if TE shared its like 2 year plan for DD2 with all of us, that would help us see where they are trying to get to (and if we want to stay on board). We may all have more patience if we understood the bigger picture. Is there a plan? POTA is not a system you end with. its's one that builds you up to....and here is the issue, there is nothing to build up for other than having nothing better to do. If POTA is the extend of the DD2 roadmap, maybe we should all abandon ship. I'd like to hope that is not the case. 

#TEDD2RoadMap

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Hi:) Im beated Mastery mode and Onslaught floor 114 just for flair!

I can totally agree what Chronos said!!!

Mastery mode is hard and fun the reward is pairing how hard is it! Need use brain what I really liked :) Mastery mode ok! Good Job Trendy! :))

Onslaught mode only good to get skins and flairs! But  1.5 hour a floor is too much! I duoed with my friend and if someone god disconnected for a reason then the all work gone! yes many towers useless! and no physical AOE dmg! thats missing so hard! This mode made game antisocial because I can not play with my friend! Drop rate is horror and not worth play with mode for gear! 1.5h a floor and get like hmm 5-8 legendary? Chaos7 map much faster! you get like 2-3 legendary in a map but only 10-15 minutes and Chaos7 much easier as well! Main problem the !! ICE CD GEO !! thats really pain and worst than roller or GNASH why? on ICE lane you can not use any trap because it will freeze mean useless, you can use only range tower but GEO makes useless it so you must poison it manually:(((  Need adjust some things then ok.

Ancient power totally not worth! Too much price for just a little more. I have only 800 ascent point and I easy beated 114! :) duo and solo! Personally I won't do reset its cost too much lost like 600 ascent, all gear, shard, pet reset and climb up again . Took me like 2 month from floor 55 to 114 with fully maxed top gear! what with after reset? farm again like half year for 1% dmg or 0.25% range?!?! And the other big problem we can not play with friend! if I just go ahead 1 floor then I can not play with my duo partner! Of course I can if I go down floor but I gain nothing just wasint time! Ancient power its just endless farm for time waste. Price is not pairing with reward!

I played and like all DD1, DDE, DD2!


I have seen GREAT potential in DD2 but need adjust and change some things!



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To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the prestige system. I was honestly hoping that it would give you some kind of special abilities or interesting buffs instead of just a tiny stat boost that's really kind of worth it only in multiplayer.


As for the gold and XP boost, honestly it doesn't sound so bad!

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i just installed DD2 again this morning and im allready sick of it again...

ever since the early days i wanted Trendy to add an endless mode like in DD1. I understand the soft reset mechanic and i think its a good thing to bring life back into the lower ranks, but why on earth do i need to spend more time building defences and changing Heroes than actualy playing the game?

im so sick and tierd of building every 10 minutes new towers and change heroes because the deck has only 4 slots. but hey with the recent change you made it even more of a chore because now lanes are constantly changing. I agree that its actualy good but god damn why do i have to spend more time building and thinking about what to build on what lane for laughable 5- 7 waves.

i dont mind grinding, but in this game the grind is building towers and not beating monsters.


BRING ENDLESS MODE WHERE I BUILD ONCE AND CAN PLAY FOR 1-3 HOURS


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@flexiflo quote:

-snip-

BRING ENDLESS MODE WHERE I BUILD ONCE AND CAN PLAY FOR 1-3 HOURS


What I heard was "BRING ENDLESS MODE WHERE I BUILD ONCE AND CAN AFK FOR 1-3 HOURS"

No offense just making fun at DD1 Survival and DD2 Onslaught(old) nostalgia :P

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I've not been playing the game for very long (100 hours) so i can definitely see both sides of the argument clearly.

On one hand:

Veteran players who spent hundreds or even thousands of hours grinding ascendancy feel that it was for nothing as to progress further they need to reset and grind it all again with no new content and not only that but you'll be weaker resetting multiple times than if you just stayed at very high ascendancy. Players who are very low ascendancy benefit far more from this as they haven't put massive amounts of time into grinding ascendancy and it essentially levels the playing field between newer and veteran players. (a 999 ascendancy veteran will be on the same level as a 150 ascendancy if they reset at the same time, making hundreds of hours for nothing)


On the other hand:

This does provide a long term method of progressing, yes it's a very slow rate but ultimately if you prestiged a few times then grinded ascendancy you'd eventually be slightly more powerful than you were and this also means there'll be more public lobbies on all levels for people to join instead of the huge gap in the newbies and the elite on c7/floor 100+.


IMO it definately needs a rework, but it's also very tricky to do so as if you let players keep gear/ascendancy, prestiging will be too easy and boring as you'll just be able to afk everything right back to level 65 and reset over and over. Maybe allow players to have multiple profiles, one where they can prestige with everything zeroed, then the other profile which saves gear, progression, ascendancy but the prestige affects the main profile too (with no option to transfer gear/shards/exp/gold from the prestige profile) This will allow players to keep their ascendancy, gear, shards etc but still burn hours gaining prestige from fresh if they want to. Also make onslaught 1 map per floor, 65 maps for a prestige is far more obtainable and would make more people willing to do it than the current format.

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I love that the game feels endless with a prestige option but my soul dies a little every time I have to say goodbye to all the gear and levels when I hit reset. 

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@Random Asian quote:


@flexiflo quote:

-snip-

BRING ENDLESS MODE WHERE I BUILD ONCE AND CAN PLAY FOR 1-3 HOURS


What I heard was "BRING ENDLESS MODE WHERE I BUILD ONCE AND CAN AFK FOR 1-3 HOURS"

No offense just making fun at DD1 Survival and DD2 Onslaught(old) nostalgia :P

There are numerous maps in DD1 that cannot be run AFK in survival even with 7k+ builders.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

There are numerous maps in DD1 that cannot be run AFK in survival even with 7k+ builders.

well, at first you can AFK almost any map, eventually they all need attending to as the floor count goes up and up. Yes, some require more maintenance then others, but i think the point of the comment was that builders played a bigger role in overall level strength in DD1 that we do not see as much in DD2. DD1 did not rely on DPS to pass, apart from bosses. Your hero was more of a caretaker than a necessary moving tower. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:

There are numerous maps in DD1 that cannot be run AFK in survival even with 7k+ builders.

well, at first you can AFK almost any map, eventually they all need attending to as the floor count goes up and up. Yes, some require more maintenance then others, but i think the point of the comment was that builders played a bigger role in overall level strength in DD1 that we do not see as much in DD2. DD1 did not rely on DPS to pass, apart from bosses. Your hero was more of a caretaker than a necessary moving tower. 

The late game maps in DD1 don't offer much opportunity for AFK even in lower waves. Which of the below end game maps are AFKable will depend on your stats, and those can be run AFK for all waves once upgraded as needed.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

The late game maps in DD1 don't offer much opportunity for AFK even in lower waves. Which of the below end game maps are AFKable will depend on your stats, and those can be run AFK for all waves once upgraded as needed.

Are you talking about the DLC maps? All of the base maps, plus the jungle map were not too bad. It was not until the Aquanos and Desert maps that i felt it got away from the AFK builds, and that had more to do with the specialized unit on those levels more than anything.  Then again i was on PS3, and my DD1 experience is greatly different than non-PS3 versions. 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@mayhem_zero quote:

The late game maps in DD1 don't offer much opportunity for AFK even in lower waves. Which of the below end game maps are AFKable will depend on your stats, and those can be run AFK for all waves once upgraded as needed.

Are you talking about the DLC maps? All of the base maps, plus the jungle map were not too bad. It was not until the Aquanos and Desert maps that i felt it got away from the AFK builds, and that had more to do with the specialized unit on those levels more than anything.  Then again i was on PS3, and my DD1 experience is greatly different than non-PS3 versions. 

No, the Eternia Shards maps are considered easy AFK survivals with end game gear. The late game maps I'm referring to were never available on PS3.

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@mayhem_zero quote:

No, the Eternia Shards maps are considered easy AFK survivals with end game gear. The late game maps I'm referring to were never available on PS3.

sigh....poor console players....

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Well I am veteran player - playing since beginning of DD2 and I think onslaught is good and has great potential.

I am not so fun of prestige as I agree also that the added bonus for grindfest is not worth it.

I already wrote it somewhere else but key is the motivation - give us super items (medaillon with 4th slot for shards?), give us new pets, shards extra bonuses for 100+ 150+ 200+ onslaught floors beaten. And make prestige worth it to motivate players to use it.

Bonuses to gold, xp bla bla is nothing - give us superior shards, superioir items - which will give us opportunity to beat superhigh onslaught levels like 200, 300 etc.

This is true endgame.

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