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keithshinoda

mass destruction

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@keithshinoda quote:

What makes this shard bad having 70% raw damage over a defensive crit adding only 34% when ur critting, which is capped at 33% right?

i believe your getting crit chance cap confused with crit damage which is not capped / i may be wrong though 

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I've always been confused why you would choose Crit DMG as the relic as opposed to TWR DMG. Wouldn't increasing the baseline DMG amount of the tower always be more beneficial? If you boost the base damage amount, won't the crit damage also go up, since its a % of the base DMG? I am just struggling with how to use Marks at all and what towers they would be good for...i just delete all of them. 

Anyone able to shine a light on this? 

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@Jaws_420 quote:

I've always been confused why you would choose Crit DMG as the relic as opposed to TWR DMG. Wouldn't increasing the baseline DMG amount of the tower always be more beneficial? If you boost the base damage amount, won't the crit damage also go up, since its a % of the base DMG? I am just struggling with how to use Marks at all and what towers they would be good for...i just delete all of them. 

Anyone able to shine a light on this? 

Crit damage isn't a percentage of base damage, it's a flat amount that gets added on a crit.

To compound this, most towers have better scaling with crit damage than with base damage, i.e. a single point of crit damage actually gives way more crit damage than a single point of defense power gives base damage.


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@Velk quote:

Crit damage isn't a percentage of base damage, it's a flat amount that gets added on a crit.

To compound this, most towers have better scaling with crit damage than with base damage, i.e. a single point of crit damage actually gives way more crit damage than a single point of defense power gives base damage.


ah, it's not a % base, that is very interesting. Very uncommon in a RPG like game. Thanks, that info makes a lot more sense. 

Sill, with the rate at which crits happen, i still think base damage is the best bucket to throw points in. At least for slow fire rates, and until you put enough Ascension points in the crit % bucket. I would wager then the higher the fire rate, the better the crit usage, as the chance that it will set off goes way up with more chances. So that would mean towers like PDT, FT, and FA would benefit greatly from a crit increase, but a tower like the balista, not as much. I will have to do some tests on my FA tonight and see if base dmg or crit relic does more DPS in the end for that one. LOL, guess is should stop deleting marks. 

To me then, the real question is about towers that have a medium fire rate, like CB or SGT. Anyone have a list of which towers are best for Marks? 

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@Jaws_420 quote:



To me then, the real question is about towers that have a medium fire rate, like CB or SGT. Anyone have a list of which towers are best for Marks? 

Not sure about any official or unofficial lists, but  20 DU defenses are really good with marks. ALso, EV2 PB and Reflect walls count as 20 DU defenses.


That said, You get about a much crit dmg with a medallion using Vampiric Empowerent + Power Transfer (Or maybe just Power Transfer?) as you do with a Mark + DCD.


In Reality, all defenses do good crit dmg and scale decently to great with it. Ballista is good due to it hitting multiple targets. Earthshatter also is really good. So many good options! In the end, you can win any map with any hero. Hope this helps!

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@Velk quote:

Crit damage isn't a percentage of base damage, it's a flat amount that gets added on a crit.

To compound this, most towers have better scaling with crit damage than with base damage, i.e. a single point of crit damage actually gives way more crit damage than a single point of defense power gives base damage.


ah, it's not a % base, that is very interesting. Very uncommon in a RPG like game. Thanks, that info makes a lot more sense. 

Sill, with the rate at which crits happen, i still think base damage is the best bucket to throw points in. At least for slow fire rates, and until you put enough Ascension points in the crit % bucket. I would wager then the higher the fire rate, the better the crit usage, as the chance that it will set off goes way up with more chances. So that would mean towers like PDT, FT, and FA would benefit greatly from a crit increase, but a tower like the balista, not as much. I will have to do some tests on my FA tonight and see if base dmg or crit relic does more DPS in the end for that one. LOL, guess is should stop deleting marks. 

To me then, the real question is about towers that have a medium fire rate, like CB or SGT. Anyone have a list of which towers are best for Marks? 

Early game defense power is definitely stronger, as you get later I the game and can max your ascension Dcrit chance gets better especially with faster fire rates

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@TMyth quote:

Early game defense power is definitely stronger, as you get later I the game and can max your ascension Dcrit chance gets better especially with faster fire rates

There must be some magic fire rate number where the tipping point between base DMG and Crit DMG teeter totters from one to the other as which is most beneficial to total DPS. I wonder what that fire rate is? I cannot imagine that a slow firing tower gets nearly the same crit DMG benefits as a fast one, like PDT, does. Needs some math and testing. Wish i was not stuck at work so i could go test it... Should be like 3 tiers - 1 ) definitely use marks, 2) even gain so your choice to use or not, and 3) my god what are you thinking using these? 

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

I use Power Transfer shards on Medallions. I don't use Marks at all.

what chaos level do those start dropping on? I have yet to see one up through C3... 

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@Jaws_420 quote:


@TMyth quote:

Early game defense power is definitely stronger, as you get later I the game and can max your ascension Dcrit chance gets better especially with faster fire rates

There must be some magic fire rate number where the tipping point between base DMG and Crit DMG teeter totters from one to the other as which is most beneficial to total DPS. I wonder what that fire rate is? I cannot imagine that a slow firing tower gets nearly the same crit DMG benefits as a fast one, like PDT, does. Needs some math and testing. Wish i was not stuck at work so i could go test it... Should be like 3 tiers - 1 ) definitely use marks, 2) even gain so your choice to use or not, and 3) my god what are you thinking using these? 

I may not know exact numbers but i can assure you almost immediately after starting chaos 2 - 3 you definitely should start, as soon as you reach 20% crit chance cap on ascension you should start using marks, the crit chance at 30% is huge, and frankly since the scaling is much more than a 1/3 ratio for power/crit it's almost worth it immediately, they scaled crit to be the best in general really. And to clarify when I say early I really mean in campaign / hard mode and when you first start playing. Chaos tiers are almost just crit all the time. Hope that clarifies a bit more

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@TMyth quote:

I may not know exact numbers but i can assure you almost immediately after starting chaos 2 - 3 you definitely should start, as soon as you reach 20% crit chance cap on ascension you should start using marks, the crit chance at 30% is huge, and frankly since the scaling is much more than a 1/3 ratio for power/crit it's almost worth it immediately, they scaled crit to be the best in general really. And to clarify when I say early I really mean in campaign / hard mode and when you first start playing. Chaos tiers are almost just crit all the time. Hope that clarifies a bit more

Thanks! 

So do you put Marks on every non blockade you have? Do you even use the Medallions?  

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@Jaws_420 quote:
@TMyth quote:

I may not know exact numbers but i can assure you almost immediately after starting chaos 2 - 3 you definitely should start, as soon as you reach 20% crit chance cap on ascension you should start using marks, the crit chance at 30% is huge, and frankly since the scaling is much more than a 1/3 ratio for power/crit it's almost worth it immediately, they scaled crit to be the best in general really. And to clarify when I say early I really mean in campaign / hard mode and when you first start playing. Chaos tiers are almost just crit all the time. Hope that clarifies a bit more

Thanks! 

So do you put Marks on every non blockade you have? Do you even use the Medallions?  

here is another tip for you regarding marks vs. medallions. Power transfer (shard from chaos 4.) actually makes medallions more viable to be upgraded than marks (its about a x3 better scaling at tier 4) than if you upgraded a tower with a mark on it. also if you combine a legendary medallion with power transfer and vampiric empowerment the scaling is absolutely insane. If i were to use the dryad's bee tower as an example, the bees can be roughly about 450k damage base, but if using vamp empowerment and power transfer with crit damage, you can get them up to 3mil damage at tier 4, if you do the math that is almost a 6x scaling. as compared to if you do a mark with power transfer vamp empowerment and crit damage you will only hit about 1.8 - 2mil, its nearly double that of a mark with upgrades. SO in conclusion, marks are better for NON UPGRADED towers (if you have towers that you are simply using for support of your main towers), medallions are better if you plan on upgrading said specific tower. Hope this helps, if you have more questions let me know

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[[18530,users]] if you play on PC add me One_punch_man, I can show you a bit more first hand since I find uploading videos to these forums tedious and doesn't seem to work half the time even when I set it up..

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https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/931550164872918735/648F25EF64E72827D93C1B3B75FA3CE98B1050A3/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/931550164872918069/F1AF347BF268254FDF2423E846C078B6E6FD0435/

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@TMyth quote:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/931550164872918735/648F25EF64E72827D93C1B3B75FA3CE98B1050A3/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/931550164872918069/F1AF347BF268254FDF2423E846C078B6E6FD0435/

This is showing the difference between a maxed mark with the same 3 shards as a maxed medallion with those same 3 shards. the higher being the medallion is about 600k stronger at max upgrade than a mark is, but a mark is about 200k stronger stock than the medallion is.

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TMyth  Great info, you rock. I'm on PS4... 

I appreciate the detailed info, especially for end game setups. From what you have listed, i kind of still feel that Marks are not something i will use very much of, well at least once i have the right shards (and multiples of them), which may be a while. I'll do some testing over the next few days and see if i can find a fire rate that will be the right amount that is good for the Mark usage. I am talking about base stats with no shards. 

The shards change everything, and i will have to incorporate that as they become available. unfortunately every shard you mention so far is not available to me as of yet....sad. 

Love 1PM anime btw...great show

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I do not use Marks. I need consistency on the high onslaught floors. I care about DPS I am dropping into the lane and not into hypothetical hits. (And you have to balance the application of that DPS across single or multi-target defenses depending on schedule). On a massive map like temple (and playing solo), I can’t  have a lady orc slip by because a crit didn’t hit. And I can’t waste DPS on an overkill (if you hit a target for 6M crit and they only had 2M health left you are wasting so much DPS). So I highly value consistency so i can afk as Many lanes as possible.

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@tb3 quote:

I do not use Marks. I need consistency on the high onslaught floors. I care about DPS I am dropping into the lane and not into hypothetical hits. (And you have to balance the application of that DPS across single or multi-target defenses depending on schedule). On a massive map like temple (and playing solo), I can’t  have a lady orc slip by because a crit didn’t hit. And I can’t waste DPS on an overkill (if you hit a target for 6M crit and they only had 2M health left you are wasting so much DPS). So I highly value consistency so i can afk as Many lanes as possible.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that reasoning, but it's not like you actually get a choice - an overwhelming percentage of your damage from most defenses will be coming from crit, regardless of whether you choose to focus it or not.


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Yeah, I agree with [[177890,users]]. On higher floors consistency is really what you want. I'm only using a Mark on Sand Viper, because of the interaction with Split viper, and Oil Geyser/Sand Trap, because I don't have enough Power Transfers and I never upgrade them since they are only for crowd control.

Aside from that, Medallions are simply better. You trade a tiny bit of damage level 1 for lots more damage at higher upgrade levels and more consistency. It's not even close.

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