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MaJean

A thread about changes to Onslaught

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If 3 maps without a save stays any longer I seriously can't see me doing the same.

Saying some people enjoy the 3 map floors is fine and all but not having a save in those floors for all the people who don't is just completely and utterly insane.

I have a bad feeling about this impending update.

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@Fozzie quote:

Saying some people enjoy the 3 map floors is fine and all but not having a save in those floors for all the people who don't is just completely and utterly insane.

I will say that I agree about having the save feature available for those with less than 1 hour available at any one time is a good idea.

TCPOP (Take Care Peace Out Peeps)

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@Fozzie quote:

If 3 maps without a save stays any longer I seriously can't see me doing the same.

Saying some people enjoy the 3 map floors is fine and all but not having a save in those floors for all the people who don't is just completely and utterly insane.

I have a bad feeling about this impending update.

Yeah read the key word he wrote save. Some how this has twisted into those that hate 3 maps and those that like 3 maps. Almost all the comments are directed to the three maps WITHOUT A SAVE kind of like the title of the thread states. Yes there was talk about wishing there wasn't 3 maps but mostly we are asking for a small mechanic to prevent loss of progress between maps.

I also have a bad feeling about this next update and based on what was put out in this thread I have a bad feeling about the next few patches. In standard cryptic Trendy speak [[166314,users]] has given the impression that this issue is not a priority for Trendy right now based on the metrics they collect. This issue will be addressed when they are ready to talk about it. And that they have other core features that they will be working on first.


Swell so lets add other new things that will not be discussed or revealed until patch day.  Yeah I know you said this wasn't going to happen but forgive me since I have been here since pre-alpha launch. So instead of finishing major core features that have been added i.e. onslaught (which clearly there is major controversy since December) you are going to add new mysterious stuff that will no doubt cause other issues. I'm sure those issue will no doubt be the kind that could have been avoided if you had announced early enough to get feed back with enough time to tweak before release. Kind of like most other games that have a "unstable branch" or a "patch server" That they offer to the public instead of in secret like they are the CIA working on covert ops.


Man I'm extra dead sea salty now.

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the problem is some of you have determined the only solution you will accept is a save. You will most likely be disappointed if its not exactly how you want.

A save is just a suggestion that has its pros and cons.

overall time commitment needed for any progress in onslaught is a bigger problem. a save feature would actually double down on the time commitment needed by investing even more developer hours into this 1000 hour AP grind system to bandaid it with a pause feature that tracks everything needed to maintain current state and a gui to load previous saves.


No save, solve the bigger problem reduce the grind.

Either no 3 map floors till 65 or no more then 2 map floors.


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I don't know why you think it needs to save the gui and exact save states. It just needs to recall that you had finished map 2 of 3 and the next time i load into the game it presents me with map 3 of 3.

You can already reroll and retry while you are there so saving lane mutators is irrelevant. 

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@Nigiri_Toro quote:

the problem is some of you have determined the only solution you will accept is a save. You will most likely be disappointed if its not exactly how you want.

A save is just a suggestion that has its pros and cons.

overall time commitment needed for any progress in onslaught is a bigger problem. a save feature would actually double down on the time commitment needed by investing even more developer hours into this 1000 hour AP grind system to bandaid it with a pause feature that tracks everything needed to maintain current state and a gui to load previous saves.


No save, solve the bigger problem reduce the grind.

Either no 3 map floors till 65 or no more then 2 map floors.


The only thing that needs remember is Floor and Map # of Floor.

Not sure where you getting double from, the double based on what number? 2 hours? 2 days? 1 week?

The only thing people want is to remember what floor they are on. 

Although depending on how the system works may require a lot of work or no work at all. It just all depends on how the coding/system is set up.

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@Chaos_Martin quote:


@Nigiri_Toro quote:

the problem is some of you have determined the only solution you will accept is a save. You will most likely be disappointed if its not exactly how you want.

A save is just a suggestion that has its pros and cons.

overall time commitment needed for any progress in onslaught is a bigger problem. a save feature would actually double down on the time commitment needed by investing even more developer hours into this 1000 hour AP grind system to bandaid it with a pause feature that tracks everything needed to maintain current state and a gui to load previous saves.


No save, solve the bigger problem reduce the grind.

Either no 3 map floors till 65 or no more then 2 map floors.


The only thing that needs remember is Floor and Map # of Floor.

Not sure where you getting double from, the double based on what number? 2 hours? 2 days? 1 week?

The only thing people want is to remember what floor they are on. 

Although depending on how the system works may require a lot of work or no work at all. It just all depends on how the coding/system is set up.

obviously you have never heard the term double down...

anyway, no its not as simple as floor and map number. the number of rerolls used would need to be tracked along with current lane modifiers and lane enemies.

Unless you are asking foe unlimited rerolls and a save feature. otherwise load save until you get the lanes you want.


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Which part of the 3 maps / floor is the bigger issue?
-- Time it takes to complete all 3 maps?
-- Difficulty / failure rate during completion of the 3 maps?


Failure rate would lead to needing to re-play, and then require more time spent.  So the two are not mutually exclusive.  I am just trying to understand which problem is the bigger contributor to this argument.

-== A Save defeats the original intent of Onslaught ==-
The original design for Onslaught was endless waves, persistent growth in difficulty, see how far you can go.  This new version of Onslaught breaks up that endless march into Floors.  The idea behind multiple maps per floor was simulate the "all-or-nothing" approach to the original onslaught.  Inserting a Map-by-Map save feature essentially eliminates the original design elements to "Onslaught".  At that point why wouldnt TE just make it 1-map per floor? 

-== Is the problem Lost Temple Specifically? ==-
With the higher floors of Onslaught, the Lost Temple adds a new lane after every wave.  That means a new angle of defense, new mutators, new enemies.   Finding the new lane, looking at the enemy schedule, checking the mutator, and then cross-referencing all of that against the Defenses you have available... it is a lot.  I enjoy this challenge but can agree it is extremely time consuming. 


-== Difficulty is okay.  "Too Difficult" is another matter ==-
If the issue is difficulty, then the gate is gear -or- strategy.  I feel this is an appropriate reason for a failure.  Can make arguments about difficulty curves.

-== Time to Play =--
If the issue is time, then perhaps TE needs to have a discussion regarding accessibility to Onslaught.  They would need to define the length of "reasonable play session", and then determine the average playtime on a given map.  Maybe they come to the conclusion that 3 maps / floor is too much time committed to a single run.  Maybe they say every 5th floor is a 3map, and all others are defaulted to 2.


@BeerGoggles quote:

What kinds of improvements would you like to see to the AP grind? 

On a personal level, I want to see Incursion / Boss maps mixed into Onslaught.  It would be really refreshing to shake things up and fight Betsy or Harbinger with Mutators.  Even facing off against Bling King or Malthius. All being scaled to floor.

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@BeerGoggles quote:

Nigiri_Toro, What kinds of improvements would you like to see to the AP grind? 

Are you doing min resets?


There are three problems with AP grind as I see it currently:

Time commitment, repetitiveness and lack of rewards

Time commitment -> if you have at least 200 starting acension is takes about 10-14 hours to go from c1-floor 65 for each AP

Possible solutions: The majority of the time is from 60-65 so either reduce floor needed to prestige to 60, or make 3 maps per floor start at 65 (only applies to end game push that way)

Repetitiveness -> after 60 you have a small pool of maps for map 1, map 2 and every third map is lost temple. This gets old very quick.

Possible solution: open all maps to map 1 and map 2 after 60, start 3 map floors at 65

Lack of rewards - AP doesnt really do much, main reason to push is talent cap increase

Possible solutions: Get rid of group stacking for AP, give us the full power, give us incremental rewards like the mastery system (gold, pet candy, hero slot etc... every AP and maybe even 5 new hyper shards we get every 10 AP)


As for when im resetting...

I did my first push to 114 to get 207 starting acension (had 1k sc pre onslaught)

then i went to 20 AP

I am currently pushing to floor 300 right now with 1 other person. At that point I will cap out at 999 talent caps when i do minimum AP reset all the way to 50 AP

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@Tarius quote:
@BeerGoggles quote:

What kinds of improvements would you like to see to the AP grind? 

On a personal level, I want to see Incursion / Boss maps mixed into Onslaught.  It would be really refreshing to shake things up and fight Betsy or Harbinger with Mutators.  Even facing off against Bling King or Malthius. All being scaled to floor.

Actually, I don't think that will be a good idea. Imagine hitting Power Surge. Or Altar of the Athame.

I would prefer Incursions to be made back to their former glory where you grind those for good stuffs. And some of them be amped up to actually be challenging and meet the criteria of a mini-game

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@Paloverde zfogshooterz quote:

Actually, I don't think that will be a good idea. Imaging hitting Power Surge. Or Altar of the Athame.

I would prefer Incursions to be made back to their former glory where you grind those for good stuffs. And some of them be amped up to actually be challenging and meet the criteria of a mini-game

Fair point.  Making them matter again would help change up the grind.  Just trying to find a away to liven onslaught.




@Nigiri_Toro quote:

There are three problems with AP grind as I see it currently:

Time commitment, repetitiveness and lack of rewards

Completely agree with the problems you identified.  and you raise some interesting ideas.

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@Tarius quote:

Which part of the 3 maps / floor is the bigger issue?
-- Time it takes to complete all 3 maps?
-- Difficulty / failure rate during completion of the 3 maps?

Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It´s been said a thousand times, but here goes again: 

Since the game only saves progression when a full floor is clear, to be able to have a meaningful playsession of Onslaught (especially past wave 65) you have to clear your schedule for an entire evening. This effectively kills any spontaneous "just a quick game".

That means no real life responsibilities. No distractions of any kind. One floor takes 1 hour minimum to clear. For some people it´s closer to 1,5-2 hours, because they like to be careful with the placement of towers, or whatever other reason.

At any time during this, the game can decide to do the "playverse has expired" or "session has expired" on you. This has happened to myself on occasions. Or, if you need to do something else for a minute, let´s just say go to the bathroom, you better be quick about it, or else you get booted from the game, even if you play solo.

I don´t care if they make each floor be just one map, or if they implement some other kind of save mechanism and keep floors as they are: 1-2-3-1-2-3... and then 3-3-3... past floor 65, - as long as progression is saved after each map, especially since the game randomly crashes. 


M.

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its 3 maps, if its taking you 2 hours you are either doing content you arent geared for or dont know how to build against, both of which are difficulty issues.

If a floor of onslaught is taking 2 hours, thats a average of 40 minutes per map.

Each map is 5 rounds. Each round takes about a minute and a half.  So thats 7 and a half minutes. What are you doing for the other 32 and a half minutes per map???

There arent new modifiers as you go up past 65, once you learn how to counter a modifier/enemy setup you know how to do it every time. So as you get more experience against each lane type build time should go down.

Make onslaught more accessible sure, make it more rewarding, absolutely.. building a save system into the current system is trendy putting more development time into trying to make this 3 maps per floor system work. Its also not speeding up progression its just making it so people can progress 1 floor in multiple play sessions.The 3 map per floor system is whats flawed, dont try to  fix that by keeping the time commitment and splitting it between different play sessions, change it so that its faster, more people have time to do it in one setting.


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@Nigiri_Toro quote:

its 3 maps, if its taking you 2 hours you are either doing content you arent geared for or dont know how to build against, both of which are difficulty issues.

If a floor of onslaught is taking 2 hours, thats a average of 40 minutes per map.

Each map is 5 rounds. Each round takes about a minute and a half.  So thats 7 and a half minutes. What are you doing for the other 32 and a half minutes per map???

There arent new modifiers as you go up past 65, once you learn how to counter a modifier/enemy setup you know how to do it every time. So as you get more experience against each lane type build time should go down.

Make onslaught more accessible sure, make it more rewarding, absolutely.. building a save system into the current system is trendy putting more development time into trying to make this 3 maps per floor system work. Its also not speeding up progression its just making it so people can progress 1 floor in multiple play sessions.The 3 map per floor system is whats flawed, dont try to  fix that by keeping the time commitment and splitting it between different play sessions, change it so that its faster, more people have time to do it in one setting.


I personally don´t use 2 hours, but the point is, even if you rush it´s still a full hour without a save....

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@MaJean quote:

Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It´s been said a thousand times, but here goes again: 

Since the game only saves progression when a full floor is clear, to be able to have a meaningful playsession of Onslaught (especially past wave 65) you have to clear your schedule for an entire evening. This effectively kills any spontaneous "just a quick game".

That means no real life responsibilities. No distractions of any kind. One floor takes 1 hour minimum to clear. For many people it´s closer to 1,5-2 hours, because they like to be careful with the placement of towers, or whatever other reason.

At any time during this, the game can decide to do the "playverse has expired" or "session has expired" on you. This has happened to myself on occasions. Or, if you need to do something else for a minute, let´s just say go to the bathroom, you better be quick about it, or else you get booted from the game, even if you play solo.

I don´t care if they make each floor be just one map, or if they implement some other kind of save mechanism and keep floors as they are: 1-2-3-1-2-3... and then 3-3-3... past floor 65, - as long as progression is saved after each map, especially since the game randomly crashes. 

well said

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@BeerGoggles quote:

You can beat a three map floor in less than 35 minutes if you're playing fast. 45minutes is casual pace

lol ok people... It takes anywhere from 35 minutes (super fast) to 2 hours (super slow). Glad we got that out of the way:)

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I mean, I'm pretty sure all the arguments have been hashed out about the 3 map/floor issue. Maybe Trendy will weigh in for 2.4. Sounds like we'll know pretty soon

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@Lawlta quote:We understand everything we push out is not going to satisfy everyone. For instance, there are those who enjoy the 3 floor map system, and those  that don't.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, maybe it is just a poor example.

I totally agree, there were (and will be) tons of changes that some people complain about, while others like them (e.g. shards, ascension, prestige ...). In the end, it boils down to a personal taste of how we want to play DD2. The devs will never be able to make it right for everyone.

IMO, the three-maps-no-save problem is a different issue. It is not about some personal gaming preference, but if a certain group of players is able to play DD2 at all. If someone only has max one hour to play per day, it is pretty pointless to start an onslaught three map run. As not everyone shares the issue of very limited gaming time, some don't have a problem with being forced to do three maps on a row (since they would anyway).

As for me personally: I don't play DD2 anymore. Not because I don't like it (acutally I love, having more than 600 hours gaming time). But because I just don't have the time to do three maps per day. I really hope one day, there will be a place of a dad with a familiy and a job in DD2 again.

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@BeerGoggles quote:

You can beat a three map floor in less than 35 minutes if you're playing fast. 45minutes is casual pace

Yes you can beat it in 35 mins once you have reached AP 17. However those that are on the first run through should not expect or be expected to finish a 3 map floor in 30 mins. 

This is a good way to kill your new player base that are coming to the game to try it out. The campaign doesn't last very long and then you're into this.

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I know certain things about me will come up as excuses, but I recently went back down from 114+ to floor 60 to help a friend after his first reset and completing the 3 maps in a hour is fairly easy after learning how every possible combination works and how to build for it. Even used a Dryad build for the first time ever and it was really OP and made the run and bosses afk (Hope that gets changed). I can't fully agree that the end game be made available to everyone but that is my own opinion and I know some are not going to agree.

As far as the new player thing, I don't think we have much to worry about there. According to steam it seems most people who start playing won't see this content anyways with only 6.1% getting a hero to level 50 and only 4.4% completing Harbinger (the end of Campaign).

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At 3k ascension you could fart and kill bosses at floor 60 :) 

@Exglint quote:

I know certain things about me will come up as excuses, but I recently went back down from 114+ to floor 60 to help a friend after his first reset and completing the 3 maps in a hour is fairly easy after learning how every possible combination works and how to build for it. Even used a Dryad build for the first time ever and it was really OP and made the run and bosses afk (Hope that gets changed). I can't fully agree that the end game be made available to everyone but that is my own opinion and I know some are not going to agree.

As far as the new player thing, I don't think we have much to worry about there. According to steam it seems most people who start playing won't see this content anyways with only 6.1% getting a hero to level 50 and only 4.4% completing Harbinger (the end of Campaign).


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@uzar quote:

At 3k ascension you could fart and kill bosses at floor 60 :)

Called that one, now lets wait for the relics to come up xD

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Hicham El Guerrouj is the current men's record holder with his time of 3:43.13 in running one mile. Just because it can be done quicker is no indication of what speed i can run my best mile in, let alone what speed i would run it casually. Hint - it is nowhere near that.

Maybe, just maybe, because one person can do something quicker or with ease is no indication of how the set expectation should be based off of that for everyone else. What speed you can do it in yourself is insignificant in the total sample size if done correctly. The set amount should be based of the average speed of all those who are involved, with extreme outliers (quickest and slowest ones) removed.

I can absolutely guarantee the average speed of 3 map floors for the entire DD2 playerbase on their current highest floor is nowhere near 30 some minutes (10 min per map). 

Let alone the fact that some player's issues stem from the glitches in the game, and prolonged play times only exacerbate those issues and make disconnects even more likely. All of which has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. 

Then also factor in people who have time commitments apart from this game. We have jobs, we have families, we have other interests and responsibilities, and other games we may also play. That should not count against your players, especially ones who want to play your game. 

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